The GetDPI Photography Forum

Great to see you here. Join our insightful photographic forum today and start tapping into a huge wealth of photographic knowledge. Completing our simple registration process will allow you to gain access to exclusive content, add your own topics and posts, share your work and connect with other members through your own private inbox! And don’t forget to say hi!

New statement by Leica on the M8

Bob

Administrator
Staff member
Guy,
I want lower noise and higher ISO.
There is the rub, it is a technical tradeoff. Both at the same time is a (engineering term follows) bitch.
-bob
 

LJL

New member
Well i more stop would be great , I agree.

There is room for improvement, no question.
Right, but as Jack pointed out, and which I agree.....you do not NEED a FF sensor to accomplish that. The 1.33x crop at 10MP could be improved to stay at 10MP or bump up slightly, but provide better high ISO performance. Would a 12-14MP 1.33x crop sensor with true ISO 2500(3200) performance be a BAD thing? I think not. If Nikon and Canon and others are able to improve noise control, Leica should be able to do that too. We are talking about a sensor, electronics and software that is(will be) several years old soon, and tech has advanced quite a bit over that time.

LJ
 

Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
Just so folks understand the technical tradeoff of higher ISO and lower noise: To get there, Canon and Nikon end up essentially "smearing" the color channels and re-assembling the smear during de-bayering. Bottom line it's why folks are complaining now about the Nikon D3's color not being up to snuff with the "old" Nikon standard, and it's why Canon has been sub-par for the past several cameras...

Me? I'll take superior color over higher iSO performance 8 days a week. If I need higher ISO, I'd rather live with the noise than crappy color...
 
S

sirvine

Guest
There is NO question in my mind after shooting a Canon 1DMKIII for the past week or so: that high ISO performance is nothing more than an in-camera Noise Ninja (or similar noise reduction filter). Why turn your camera into a crippled version of Photoshop? For me, better high ISO performance means better, more film-like grain at high ISO -- i.e., not banding and other video-like artifacts.

And, yes, get rid of that damn green band problem. That's just embarrassing.
 

Terry

New member
I am definitely not whining about full frame as I really don't care about it, I don't print anything huge and as Jack as shown you can get pretty darn large with what we've got.

Agree, the high ISO performance would be great.

The big "joke" is me potentially getting a second body and when all of the uncertainty of what comes next from Leica is all around us, it makes me pause and evaluate what the best next steps are (buy used and upgrade, buy a new body, wait for M9, etc.) To the extent that I am paused I am sure others are as well and that does not help Leica sell cameras and generate good cashflow for the needed R&D investments.
 

LJL

New member
I am definitely not whining about full frame as I really don't care about it, I don't print anything huge and as Jack as shown you can get pretty darn large with what we've got.

Agree, the high ISO performance would be great.

The big "joke" is me potentially getting a second body and when all of the uncertainty of what comes next from Leica is all around us, it makes me pause and evaluate what the best next steps are (buy used and upgrade, buy a new body, wait for M9, etc.) To the extent that I am paused I am sure others are as well and that does not help Leica sell cameras and generate good cashflow for the needed R&D investments.
Terry,
I agree with your comments about being "paused". That is the reaction many folks have after watching/reading about this entire Leica communication and mis-management. They have not helped their cause right now. If they can quickly get the house back in order, and to me, that means "fixing" the service department, getting QA/QC up, and keeping lenses in stock for folks to purchase, in addition to getting their act together about the M and R lines, they can weather this. I would like to see reasonable and practical upgrades/improvements for the M8. A new FF sensor is not as big a priority in my mind as making some other fixes first, and yes, cleaner high ISO performance (without color smearing that Jack talks about) is one of those things that would be welcomed.

LJ
 

Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
Paused? I'm thinking about a third body just so I have redundant back-up for a few additional years :D
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
I see no reason to pause myself. But i understand if folks want to do that. The biggest issue is service. But there is improvement, i just can't talk about it.
 

Mike Hatam

Senior Subscriber Member
I love the M8, I was very excited by the prospect of a FF digital M, for several reasons.

I would like to see 15+MP in the sensor, giving more "cropability", and higher resolution when it's needed.

Sensor technology has also improved since the original M8 CCD was designed. The micro-lenses can now be configured to capture more light (more surface area) to deliver to each photo site. This is how Canon squeezed more pixels in to the Mark III series, without increasing the sensor's size, and while maintaining or improving the noise levels (more light captured at each photo site).

I like the trade-off of CCD over CMOS. CCD produces very crisp and clean images. But they take a lot of power, and produce more noise at higher ISOs. I'd like to see the M system using the best available CCD technologies, providing the same crisp/clean pixels, but with lower noise when you get to ISO 800 - 3200.

If Leica makes these improvements in the M series (upgraded M8, or new M9), then I'll be all over it. While they're at it, they can address these other annoyances...

- SDHC support
- Electronic crop lines
- Faster burst-rate (frames per second)
- electronic focus confirmation (not sure how this would be done on a range-finder)
- better battery life based on newer battery technology
- Get rid of the silly bottom plate, to make changing cards/batteries easier

I know this sounds like whining, but the reality is that there is room for improvement with the M8. It's a wonderful tool, but Leica needs to stay committed and passionate about improvements to the product line, incorporate new technologies that are emerging in digital imaging over time.
 

vieri

Well-known member
Printing large & full frame

IMHO there is no connection between the two whatsoever, actually. More MP = print larger, true in most cases; full frame = less noise, yes in most cases. Other than that, 10 MP on a 1.33x sensor will print as big as 10 MP on a 24x36 sensor. The Nikon D3 has less noise than its predecessors mainly because of pixel size: 12 MP on a 1.5x sensor are smaller (therefore noisier) than 12 MP on a 24x36 sensor. The noise difference in the D300 vs D2x comparison, same MP count & same size, on the other hand might be due to technological improvement of sort: Jack's remark might well be correct here, though I have a D300 and don't see "bad colors" coming out of it - plus, I'd PP the heck out of them anyway :D
 

TRSmith

Subscriber Member
I'm such a noob with Leica that I'm still in love with the glass. The body is cool, but I'm not all that attached to it. However, there's already more potential in the existing body config. than I have the skill or the time to pull out of it. So as long as I can use my 28 cron and dream about all the other lenses I want to use on the M8 (or whatever it morphs into) then I'm a happy camper.

My biggest fear at this point is if Leica will even be around. The recent double hit of communication from them is very unsettling. In the darkest places of my imagination I can envision the M8 becoming the camera equivalent of an Edsel.
 

jonoslack

Active member
I must say, I think that the best first step is to concentrate on the M8 they have:
SDHC support
better JPG's (don't need 'em myself but folks do)
easier exposure compensation, ISO, WB changing (as per Sean's posts on the Leica forum).

These things can all be done with the existing hardware - by all means keep to the shutter upgrade (I'd like one fast one and one quiet one).

I'd like to see a new sensor at some point, but right now I'm pretty happy, and some sort of commitment to improvements to the M8, and the fact that it won't be superseded for a year or so ought to settle the jitters, then they might sell some more cameras!

. . . . . . and of course they should be working on their QA.
 

Bob

Administrator
Staff member
I have no idea what is next from any vendor.
The idea that I would is bad for their business and thus ultimately bad for me.
Not knowing what is next is not and should not be an issue for pause.
Management issues, on the other hand, might be, but only if you fear their collapse.
This was not so important in the mechanical days when somebody like DAG could pick up the burden. All this electronic stuff needs parts inventories and so-forth to provide support.
But, if the product doesn't fail, it is less of a worry, but but Leica could do some work here to improve the situation.
Most of the electronics business, except for the military side of things, has a very short support life. Camera buyers have a longer expectation than most, so that translates into spares reserves which cost must be built into the price. Except for some notable analog parts (op amps for example) sensors and ics have a manufacturing life under five years. But I can't remember the last ELECTRONIC thing that I have ever owned that has lasted that long other than televisions and similar; certainly not cameras or computers.
-bob
 

apsheng

Member
I love the M8 as is and so am not whining about FF or upgrades (nice to haves no doubt). However I am concerned (or whining about) Leica's apparent inability to take advantage of the M8 success and may fall back to the marginal company it was before.

Alan
 

Daniel

New member
i've been pondering about full frame this past several weeks, and a few days ago i realize that the M8 is almost full frame. comparing the m8 sensor size to the other sensors on the market, the m8 is approximately 77 percent (1.33) versus 50 percent (1.5) of full frame for the other sensors. is my math correct? otherwise, you can call this my new math :eek:

– dan
 

Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
When we talk crop, we are comparing capture area on the sensor. Note that you arrive at the crop factor if you compare the frame diagonal, just like with prints. So a 1.33 crop camera has 1/1.33 or 75%, while a 1.5 crop is 1/1.5 or 67%...
 

PeterA

Well-known member
Well I dont care about high ISO and I don't want in camera smoothing ala CaNikon, and I care about quality files so I have an M8 and now again a DMR. The quality of the files is what makes me so interested in a full frame version of the M8 and the R - and the full frame version means my lenses work like they are supposed and designed to work.

I do care about paying for Leica quality and not getting it. The simple fact of the matter is that they are destroying their franchise by delivering gear that is not up to spec. This issue is compounded by poor service. There is a brain snap going on in there regarding how much they think they can push people's loyalty.

Why should I have to send my lenses into Leica so that they can get 'coded' so that some software can recognize the lens I am using in an M camera? Why cant they just supply me with a plug in module for C1 or Adobe and let me tell the module what adjustment to make to the raw file in post shot production? They are basing a lot of their decisions on bespoke service culture - and not delivering a bespoke service.

if you guys think this is harsh - so be it. But I have been a long time user and supporter of Leica - because things used to work very well - out of the box. Now we get to the cheaper line of lenses announced - which aren't really much cheaper, and upgrade policies at ridiculous prices involving shipment back to Leica - in order to fix a sticky shutter release, noisy shutter and scratchy LCD - what rubbish!

At the same time we have pictures of square jawed models posing with Leica cameras in some kind of Teutonic castle setting not even knowing how to hold the gear properly as a marketing break through - the common denominator is well meaning strategy - poorly executed.

In a small company, lacking resources...it is a dangerous way to play. Instead of focusing on what IS going to work - we have Leica making in one way or another two different classes of lenses, numerous branded cameras and lenses,in numerous formats and moving to a fast twitch business model. They cant do this properly ( as if anyone can) - what they have ended up with now - is a lot of inventory that people aren't buying, and the stuff peopel want to buy or get serviced isnt there! ..anyone in business knows that focusing on fewer product lines and get them right is what makes money. The consultants will be in there in due course telling them same.

Looking forward what they can do right, is get world class products out - and that means - full frame bodies that work with existing and future best of breed lens designs. That has always been their market - and that should be their market. regarding announcements - making announcements via gossip and innuendo is really bad business.

/rant
 
Top