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Leica M9 schedule for September 2009 ?

R

Ranger 9

Guest
I don't think there have been any technological breakthroughs since the M8 appeared that would solve the problems of steep ray angles at the edges of a 36x24mm sensor.

On the other hand, I just remembered that one of the promises Leica made a few months ago was that there would be "a solution" for R lens owners.

How disappointed would you all be if the putative "M9" were to incorporate a 36x24 sensor that would be electronically "cropped" to provide M8-size images when M lenses were used... plus an extension adapter that would enable 36x24 lenses when R lenses were used?

No RF coupling with the R lenses, of course, so presumably they'd have to be focused via live view. Come to think of it, this could be done semi-slickly by designing what might be called an "electronic Visoflex" that would provide both the necessary extra extension and a place to house an eye-level finder a la Panasonic G/H 1. An additional advantage of this configuration is that it also might be able to use S2 lenses via an adapter.

I know, this isn't what anybody would want. But it does have the advantage of being possible with current technology... which, IMO, a 36x24mm sensor with a M-flange body depth still is not...
 
V

Vivek

Guest
I don't think there have been any technological breakthroughs since the M8 appeared that would solve the problems of steep ray angles at the edges of a 36x24mm sensor.
In fact, there have been some breakthroughs. Photonic crystals (Panasonic implemented them in one P&S cam recently, I think) will filter off UV and IR and like Doug Herr posted above, these can be incorporated in the microlenses themselves thus avoiding any thick glass filters, etc. This is cutting edge technology. Not sure if Leica would incorporate it.

Live view would be awesome.
 

Terry

New member
In fact, there have been some breakthroughs. Photonic crystals (Panasonic implemented them in one P&S cam recently, I think) will filter off UV and IR and like Doug Herr posted above, these can be incorporated in the microlenses themselves thus avoiding any thick glass filters, etc. This is cutting edge technology. Not sure if Leica would incorporate it.

Live view would be awesome.
Yes, about 6 months ago I read about Kodaks new sensors with the IR correction(filtering) embedded in the sensor. I remember sending Guy the link. I will try and find it.
 

Stuart Richardson

Active member
Well, I think if it is NOT going to be announced and available soon, it will be pretty odd given how many people have been informed of it by dealers. I spoke to my dealer who has had a 100% accuracy rating in giving me a few weeks head's up about these things in the past, and he told me that two of his distributors already have prices for the M9. I did not press him on it, nor will I reveal who he is (even by PM), but he was saying there was no way it would happen even a few weeks ago. Not anymore. Whatever form it will take, I think it is now pretty likely that it will be announced soon and available in at least small quantities soon.
 

Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
I think the M9 is going to be an awesome addition to the Leica line -- I mean what's not to like about a full-frame digital RF, that can use all sorts of legacy and third-party glass? Plus, rangefinders are just plain fun to work with.

Re the M8: I do not see the M8 as being killed off by the M9 at all. In fact, there are more than a few reasons to have at least one M8 body, and ability to shoot IR is one.

Exciting times for Leica!
 

kweide

New member
A guess: M9 = Oly m43 design with full-frame chip....
That would be a sensation. From the technical view the way is possible. Oly and Leica can do that. But not Leica alone. I dont believe that a M9 with full frame is possible with the same flangeback. The have to rethink !! And that is the reason why it last soooo long. m43 design ist the solution !
 

cmb_

Subscriber & Workshop Member
. . . there are more than a few reasons to have at least one M8 body . . . .
Yes, turn 3 lenses into 6.
21 Lux, 35 Lux, 75 Lux on the M9
become
28 LUX! - 47 Lux (almost your 50) - 100 Lux on the M8

So you only need to pick up the 50 preAsph for your 4th lens.

Wow! What a savings. Cost efficiency with Leica!!!
 
R

Ranger 9

Guest
I think the M9 is going to be an awesome addition to the Leica line -- I mean what's not to like about a full-frame digital RF, that can use all sorts of legacy and third-party glass?
I agree that an "M9" with the traditional M form factor, optical range/viewfinder, full M lens compatibility, and 36x24mm sensor, priced at about $7,700 per earlier rumorposts, would be a great addition to the Leica line.

I just don't think it can be done.

Technically speaking, something in that dream feature set would have to give. In the M8, what gave was the 36x24 sensor.

In a putative M9, I could imagine a 36x24 sensor but not with full M lens compatibility. (Maybe M lenses would be restricted to "crop mode," the way FX Nikons do with DX lenses, with a different line of longer-back-focus lenses that could use the full 36x24.)

I'm also skeptical that such a completely re-engineered camera could be delivered at a $7,700 price point, although I suppose all the electronics and software work that went into the S2 would be applicable to this as well.

Alternatively, I could also imagine a September-announced, $7,700 M9 that's conceptually nothing more than an M8.2 with a higher pixel count, but that would produce a lot of long faces out in Leica-land...
 

John Black

Active member
Well Carlos, if those Zeiss Ikon-D wishes come true, that could be a stunning development. That would a very interesting dichotomy with Leica presumably using CCD sensors sans AA filters and Zeiss using CMOS with an AA filter (assuming this is mostly trickle down sensor technology from Sony). I bet we'd see alot of people owning both - the M for low ISO work, and then the Zeiss for upper ISO work.
 
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etrigan63

Active member
If anything, it may spur Leica to become more competitive as they are currently alone in the DRF market. I am closely following these developments. I am also keenly interested in the Sony α950, which if it has ISO performance similar to my D700 would be of great use to me in my stage work.
 

John Black

Active member
Ranger 9 - we could also see something in between. My guess is a 16.67 MP at 1.2x crop; this is being derived from the same sensor as the S2, just a smaller size with the 30mm on the long side. If Leica made forward progress to 1.2x or 1.15x I think most people would be happy to see the change. It may not be ideal, but at least it's a step in the right direction.
 
R

Ranger 9

Guest
John B said:
Well Carlos, if those Zeiss Ikon-D wishes come true, that could be a stunning development.
I'd be stunned, all right... particularly since nobody involved in the current Ikon (Zeiss and Cosina) has the sensor, signal-processing, and system-integration expertise to make a digital camera. That was what Epson brought to the party for the R-D 1.

So, who'd have to come into the picture for an Ikon D? Someone who has the technological expertise to "digify" a camera system, but who doesn't have an existing camera brand or lens line that would be hurt by this.

For example, I can't see Canon, Nikon or Pentax wanting to contribute to a camera that couldn't be sold with their name (and lens mount) on it. Sony? Well, I'm sure they'd be happy to sell Cosina a sensor, but someone else still would have to do the overall integration. Panasonic, Olympus and Samsung all seem to have their own alternative direction and wouldn't want a distraction from it.

Who's left? That's why Epson was such a good fit for the R-D 1... they had the know-how, but no existing camera business to protect. I'm not sure who else is available to fill that role.
 

nostatic

New member
I
I'm also skeptical that such a completely re-engineered camera could be delivered at a $7,700 price point, although I suppose all the electronics and software work that went into the S2 would be applicable to this as well.

Alternatively, I could also imagine a September-announced, $7,700 M9 that's conceptually nothing more than an M8.2 with a higher pixel count, but that would produce a lot of long faces out in Leica-land...
Consider the D3x. Nikon wasn't reinventing the wheel with that and it is a $7K camera. I fail to see how Leica could be making a FF M9 at this point, especially to sell for only $7K

What makes far more sense to me is a Leica/Panasonic u4/3 camera in the $2-3K range and a smattering of M glass modified with a u4/3 mount. M9, if it exists, would more likely be an upgraded version of the M8 (ie some will dub it an M8.3).

disclaimer - I have no inside information. But I also think that some dealers often don't know what they're talking about either...
 

Hacker

New member
A reliable dealer in Asia is only getting 10 sets (he wants more) for the first shipment and they are all booked. I ordered 2 and have to pay in full by month's end to get a further discount instead of just placing a deposit. I'm being very optimistic. :D

I agree that an "M9" with the traditional M form factor, optical range/viewfinder, full M lens compatibility, and 36x24mm sensor, priced at about $7,700 per earlier rumorposts, would be a great addition to the Leica line.

I just don't think it can be done.

Technically speaking, something in that dream feature set would have to give. In the M8, what gave was the 36x24 sensor.

In a putative M9, I could imagine a 36x24 sensor but not with full M lens compatibility. (Maybe M lenses would be restricted to "crop mode," the way FX Nikons do with DX lenses, with a different line of longer-back-focus lenses that could use the full 36x24.)

I'm also skeptical that such a completely re-engineered camera could be delivered at a $7,700 price point, although I suppose all the electronics and software work that went into the S2 would be applicable to this as well.

Alternatively, I could also imagine a September-announced, $7,700 M9 that's conceptually nothing more than an M8.2 with a higher pixel count, but that would produce a lot of long faces out in Leica-land...
 

John Black

Active member
So, who'd have to come into the picture for an Ikon D? Someone who has the technological expertise to "digify" a camera system, but who doesn't have an existing camera brand or lens line that would be hurt by this.
The first "brand" that came to mind for me was Fuji. As for the sensor, who knows. There appear to be many companies able to produce CMOS, but Sony seems the most likely candidate since they'll sell to anyone.
 

etrigan63

Active member
According to the stuff I and others have uncovered, the likely suspect for the sensor is Sony with it's Exmor-R sensor which fixes the issue of corner vignette with M-lenses. Sony may be contracted to do the whole shebang and slap a Zeiss label on it as part of the renewed contract between Zeiss and Sony. Lord knows Zeiss can tell them how to build it and the DRF market is way too niche for Sony to be interested. A Zeiss Ikon Digital wouldn't make the slightest dent in their sales. Plus, the camera is slated to be announced in 2010, after Sony has shipped their own Exmor-R based Alphas.
 
R

Ranger 9

Guest
Carlos, that'd be cool if it all panned out. Panasonic says backlit sensors would get too hot if scaled up to 36x24mm... but maybe Sony knows something Pana doesn't.

Also, rather than Sony doing the whole shebang, I'd be perfectly happy with Cosina handling the mechanical part, as they do with the film Ikon. Most people I've heard from seem to be very happy with the Ikon's RF/VF unit. The quality of this component is key to the RF shooting experience, and it's a challenging-to-make piece with which Sony has no experience.

Either way, though -- and even if it's all only a dream -- this is still a more appealing dream for me than the Leica-branded dreams circulating elsewhere in the thread. I'm still a very avid Epson R-D 1 user -- for me the 1:1 viewfinder is a huge deal -- and I've felt for years that the same basic camera with a longer RF base, a higher pixel count, and a little more ISO range would be all I'd need for about 80% of my photography. (And it's looking more and more as if a Micro Four Thirds camera with an EVF and an M-adapter would cover the other 20%.) What you're describing sounds like exactly that camera...
 

douglasf13

New member
FWIW, Ranger9, I wouldn't forget that Sony makes a plethora of professional movie cameras and sound equipment that can price in the six figures, so I wouldn't worry too much about Sony's ability to build a little rangefinder, should they choose to.
 
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