M8: The Race for the Bottom Begins!

[patashnik]

M9 or bust. I have to admit that I have no interest in the M8 at all anymore. I helped a friend secure one last week: Put up an ad on a Norwegian website. Within 24 hrs I had scored one for around $2000 (12000 NOK). Sure, I got the usual share of $2800-$4000(!!!) offers, but it didn't take much work at all.

Personally, I will either get the M9 - or stay away from Leica M digitals.

 

[wolverine]

Some good responses. At the end of the day the M8 is a digital camera. Not the same world at all as for film. It will lose value. The majority of those holding out for digital FF and are not in an M8 yet probably already have an investment in M lenses. There are a few used lenses that will go up in value for FF. I agree with the comment that non-coded lens may have a problem on the M9. Current pricing puts leica back in the elite camp going forward. I think they should add a year onto their warranty. But used M8's and alternative lenses will be very attractive to others who may want to try a rangefinder. They will have to have spare cash because the M8 will not be their primary system. At current used prices, those waiting to get in at a lower price point are mostly there. Just an alternative view. Very interesting discussion.

 

[Ranger 9]

I guess we'll find out on Weds.

We won't find out everything on Wednesday. The initial problems with the M8 (highlight streaking, IR color shifts) weren't caught (or at least weren't acknowledged) by Leica before release and didn't appear until the cameras got into photographers' hands.

Even then, I seem to recall a certain period of denial, in which some photographers were posting examples showing problems, while others (and Leica) were questioning their methodology and trying to pretend that nothing was wrong. I hope Leica learned from that experience!

 

[LJL]

Yes, 35 and 135 / 28 and 90 / 50 and 75

Really? Hmmmm...my M8 framelines are 24/35, 50/75, 28/90 combos. The 135 is approximated to be the size of the focus patch, but there are no framelines for it that I have ever seen.

LJ

 

[fultonpics]

they should start showing up at keeble here in palo alto shortly, most with little mileage--like a few pics of flowers in the backyard, the dog and maybe even an exciting trip to Yosemite (we got way more people with money than 'photographers' out here!). as the price drops, i'll pick one up--it will be a great back-up camera for assignments. a little photoshop and the shots are agency ready!

 

[GrahamWelland]

Really? Hmmmm...my M8 framelines are 24/35, 50/75, 28/90 combos. The 135 is approximated to be the size of the focus patch, but there are no framelines for it that I have ever seen.

LJ

The question was about M9 framelines, not M8.

 

[LJL]

The question was about M9 framelines, not M8.

Well, if you look at post #36, the answer to the question was referring to the M8, NOT the M9.

LJ

 

[docmoore]

Agreed, (except for the "Baloney" part), but there is a point of diminishing returns at work here. Yes, it is easily conceivable that a used M8 will initially go to $2,000. Maybe even a bit lower, but at some point those that want a Leica digital rangefinder have a choice ... $8,000. or a M8. I know a LOT of Leica users that simply won't or can't hack a $8,000. Digital M. (I think those that hope the M9 will be $6,500. are smoking something, and aren't watching Leica's recent, even more premium pricing strategy).

I assume that with the X1 priced at $2000 one would have a bit of a time finding a decent M8 at less....not mine at least.:deadhorse:

Bob

 

[Ranger 9]

I think we're seeing a certain amount of "endowment effect" among M8 owners here.

 

[Mark Gowin]

I think we're seeing a certain amount of "endowment effect" among M8 owners here.

I disagree. The M9 price at $6,995 USD bodes well for used M8 prices. On top of that, I think the M8 used prices are propped up by the expected $1,995 USD price for the X1. As much as I have begged Leica for an X1 type camera, I would also be hard pressed to pay $2k for an X1 (1.5x crop CMOS fixed lens) when I could get a used M8 (1.33 crop CCD M mount) for just slightly more. In fact I find myself in this very dilemma - would I rather get another M8 or an X1.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

My pocket could use some endowment. LOL

 

[Guy Mancuso]

I disagree. The M9 price at $6,995 USD bodes well for used M8 prices. On top of that, I think the M8 used prices are propped up by the expected $1,995 USD price for the X1. As much as I have begged Leica for an X1 type camera, I would also be hard pressed to pay $2k for an X1 (1.5x crop CMOS fixed lens) when I could get a used M8 (1.33 crop CCD M mount) for just slightly more. In fact I find myself in this very dilemma - would I rather get another M8 or an X1.

Same boat as a few folks here I would think. I was hoping for 1495.00 on it. Now it pushes itself into the used market for a M8 as far as pricing and that does not help Leica per say.

 

[Mark Gowin]

Same boat as a few folks here I would think. I was hoping for 1495.00 on it. Now it pushes itself into the used market for a M8 as far as pricing and that does not help Leica per say.

Agreed. Less than $1500 and I would be ordering an X1. But, as it is, there is no way I would trade my M8 for an X1 which would be the net effect if I sold one and bought the other.

 

[bradhusick]

I just don't understand the X1. If you wanted to spend $2K on a camera, there are several top notch DSLR choices and they all offer interchangeable lenses. Or for less you could get any of the fine micro 4/3 cameras and a few lenses. If you want great picture quality, go for a used M8. I know others who disagree with me, but I think the niche for the X1 will be very small. Now if it was $799...

 

[docmoore]

I think we're seeing a certain amount of "endowment effect" among M8 owners here.

Reality check....I paid $3000 recently for a classic mint - M8 ....no line issues no green blobs. It was my second M8 and I am very pleased with its output.
It seems that those without an M8 are the ones who are seriously discounting the camera.

I agree with Guy but assume that Leica does not want to bury used M8(.2) prices and has positioned the X1 accordingly.

Bob

 

[Mark Gowin]

I can't understand the expected X1 prices either considering it will be made in Japan and use a sensor similar to the Nikon D300s/D5000. Perhaps, the X1 price will be lower than expected, but I am not holding my breath.

 

[fotografz]

Reality check....I paid $3000 recently for a classic mint - M8 ....no line issues no green blobs. It was my second M8 and I am very pleased with its output.
It seems that those without an M8 are the ones who are seriously discounting the camera.


Bob

I agree. I'm just finished processing a wedding and the M8 shots just sing ... very, very pleased ... and it may be that the M8 will remain unique in the look of the files even with the M9 on the street. In some ways, bigger isn't always better.

 

[Ranger 9]

I'm sure current M8 owners will feel differently, but I think a steep drop in M8 prices would be a good thing for Leica itself in the long term.

The reason is that if we look at the set of serious photographers who currently "get" the whole rangefinder thing, and the set of serious photographers who can afford to drop $7,000 on a limited-use camera... well, the intersection of those sets has to be a fairly small number.

I suspect most of those fortunate few have ordered their M9s already.

So if Leica wants to keep M9 sales going beyond the initial feeding frenzy, they have to find a way to make the M9 relevant to serious photographers who don't use one already. In other words, they need recruit more "rangefinder fanboys" (I can use this term without insult because I'm one of 'em) on an ongoing basis.

Unlike, say, celebrity shooters (Seal, John Sandford) who might value a prestige camera as a take-me-seriously merit badge, hardcore photographers care about only one thing: "Will this kind of camera improve my chances of making the pictures I'm driven to make?" If it costs $7,000 (plus the cost of lenses) even to start to find out the answer to this question, Leica is going to have a hard time recruiting candidates to roll the dice.

It was different when M8 first appeared, because then there already was a lower-cost "entry level" DRF camera: the Epson R-D 1. Yes, it had some initial quality problems, and no, it still wasn't exactly cheap (although it eventually became almost a hot seller as a $1995 refurb) but it certainly offered a much lower-priced point of entry to digital shooters who wanted to give the "rangefinder aesthetic" a try.

Of those who tried that shooting style and liked it, I suspect many eventually graduated to Leica bodies. However, with Epson out of the US market and no other manufacturer willing to stick its hand into the meat grinder, Leica no longer can rely on a competitor to furnish a lower-priced "starter" DRF. The only answer is for the M8 to fill that role.


Incidentally, I feel that when it comes to recruiting potential rangefinder fanboys, the X1 is totally irrelevant to this discussion because (a) it's not a rangefinder camera and (b) it doesn't have interchangeable lenses.

In other words, it might seem like an alternative to Leica fans who want "another Leica." But it's not going to seem that way to brand-agnostic photographers who only care about taking pictures.

They wouldn't shop the X1 against the M8/M9... they'd shop it against other fixed-lens "serious compact" cameras such as the Sigma DP2 and Ricoh GRD III, or (going up a notch in size) against the pancake-lens versions of the Olympus EP1 and Panasonic GF1.

 

[Terry]

I just watched the interview with Stephan Daniel. He was specifically asked about an "entry level" M to get more people interested in rangefinders. They felt they would be in competition with the used M8 market and people would say "why would I buy a baby M if for the same price I could have a used M8". So, they are looking for used M8's to do exactly what you say.

 

[monza]

How many M8s and M8.2s are in the field? I remember seeing a unsubstantiated 20,000 figure but that was when I owned one, nearly two years ago.