So here are the numbers side by side
Roadie Kelvin 5631 Tint 2.4
Sk Kelvin 6044 Tint 1.4
So here are the numbers side by side
Roadie Kelvin 5631 Tint 2.4
Sk Kelvin 6044 Tint 1.4
Back to the SK . Since I had the lights out I thought I would shoot the background again at zero , 10mm of rise and 15mm rise. No LCC shot , I want to see if the tech analyze tool cleans it up and it did . Of course I need to do this for real with images and see where it goes but the tool itself is cleaning these non CF shots up which is pretty darn amazing.
Just FYI when I got to 15mm of rise the top right is the roll of seamless, so ignore that. I had to tilt the whole camera down for the 10mm and 15mm shots. It gets up there.LOL
These are as shot.
Now I just corrected the 10mm and 15mm rise images to save time.
Well I thought I would try it . Went to 14mm of Rise and it did pretty good until the corner than hit noise which I expected but with a Center Filter I will gain 2 stops of exposure in the corners since I have to open up 2 stops for the center filter to even the light out across the frame. So when that comes I should be able to pull this off. FREAKING AMAZING. I would be thrilled with 10mm max and it may turn out that way in the end after I use the center filter. Shot at F8.5
Very top left corner as you see noise and maybe some smearing but will see how this works out in the end.
Looks like you have chosen a winner for yourself then?
“You don’t take a photograph, you make it.” — Ansel Adams
Looks very promising indeed.
I see the tradeoff for you -- or anybody else with a 160 or smaller back plus a Cambo considering these two choices -- as do you want to be able to tilt it ever, or do you prefer an extra 6mm or 7mm of rise capability?
But it should be clarified that if you own an Arca RM3Di, you would have both the tilts and additional shift capability with the SK.
I'll take the extra MM any day . I have two lenses for the cost of one. Tilt on a 28 is going to be occasional . The DOF is really big but the Arca argument depends . I rather have a much smaller Cambo to truck around but that's me. I am certainly not find of having to be a mathematician to use it and look at charts. This is Art not science class. There I said it. They are gorgeous the Arca no question just not my style. I want to think image when I'm shooting. Lol
I go be badass now and go ride my dirt bike . ROTFLMAO
All kidding aside the Rodie is 500 dollars more and a TS mount is 1500 for this lens. Plus I don't get any extras like 90mm IC. For 2k I can focus stack. This is a cost measure too in this purchase. 2k buys me two Nikon lenses.
What i really find amazing is the difference between the IQ160 and IQ180. It is HUGE... There is NO way to use the Schneider 28 on an IQ180 with 15mm or even 10mm shift, but on the IQ160 it still lookes fine.
i think that shows one HUGE problem, we certianly would NEVER need a IQ200 or so with 100Mp, it would probably be unusable with a Rodenstock 32...
However, as i know the next Phase back WILL have more pixels I can only hope that a good CMOS sensor solfs the color cast problem. ( And Yes I will be the FIRST person to jump in the air if a new Phase back had less or the same Mp as the current ones, but I fear that will never happen)
Will we see less concern with large MP jumps and more concerned with IQ, color cast and DR functionality or perhaps a push toward larger sensors?
Agreed Ed -- rarely do we need perfect resolution in an extreme corner -- heck, a lot of the time for me it's just sky anyway!
Thanks Ed that is a very small section too.
Do you think these lenses would work with a slim-profile polarizer without vignetting (say with a small amount of shift)? The sky wouldn't be in the scene so I'm not worried about the unevenness of the color in the sky.
Yes. Let me get in my office I have some data for that exact thing
Here is the data i received from Cambo which have been very helpful here. Certainly you could with the bigger ring but looking at the smaller ring with a slim polarizer I think you can get away with it. I don't have any filters that big here in my office to try this out or I would for you. Ill take a quick shot of the lens along with the two supplied rings.
the 28XL has a detachable ring on the front element. You will notice that this ring hides the screw threading for the 2 filter rings you got with it.
Because of the wide angle of view, a default threaded front element would be either too big or vignetting, hence this tapered ring.
This ring is quite thin, so any too much pressure on it while trying to screw it off will work against you, use gentle force…
When you replace it with the “smaller” threaded filter ring, you can use M95x1 threaded filters; this size will slightly vignette
When you replace it with the “larger” threaded filter ring, you can use M112x1.5 threaded filters; this size will not vignette but adds a lot of size.
Schneider offers a dedicated Center Filter for this 28XL, which we do have in stock here at the factory.
This Center Filter screws directly onto the exposed m85 threading.
It has been made so that this Center Filter will not vignette.
By the way been in touch with Schneider, Cambo and Dave at CI and there are Center Filters for the 28, 43 and 60 lenses. I just got off the phone with Dave actually and he is placing orders for these rings so may want to contact CI if these are CF you are looking for . Here are the part numbers
# 1069159, Centerfilter IV d, (Super-Digitar 5,6/28 mm)
# 1069162, Centerfilter II i, (Apo-Digitar 5,6/ 43mm)
# 1069161, Centerfilter II h, (Apo-Digitar 5,6/60 mm)
Well being the rebel that I am never say die and try it. Its clear I need the Center filter but I was curious what about a horizontal stitch on a horizontal sensor placement. What they heck so went out shot a normal 28mm shot no movements than did a two shot stitch 10mm left and 10mm right. Now no question I have casts still so the CF is certainly needed but it was worth the try at least. Even looking at the straight shot today looks like I need it there too. Its on its way but I'm antsy to shoot.
Than the 2 shot Horizontal stitch
But in my estimation even a 5mm on either side of zero would get me a 23mm focal length.
Well I had to try a 2 shot vertical stitch as well at 10mm and again its clear I need the CF doing this stuff. LOL
2 shot Vertical stitch at 10mm
Well had to take something besides a boring test shot. So this is with 12mm of rise. I like the look of a 28mm
Okay just some quick shots of the lens with different filter rings on.
This is the standard ring that comes on the lens with no flyer threads. You can see it is rounded
Standard ring off showing threads for filter rings
This is the first smaller filter thread ring here
This is the biggest filter thread ring here
Pardon my dust on these they where just some quick grabs
I did a 10mm rise on the small filter ring and no vignetting but once you put a filter in it would protrude further out so not sure without having a filter in if it would vignette
I think you need to upgrade to the latest version of Capture One. The new LCC is awesome.
OK, so it isn't a great job, but it's a nice idea...
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Perfect who needs a CF. Lol
i'd be curious to see how a stitch from a rotation pano would fare compared to your shift-stitching. mostly in terms of resolution of corner WA distortion when stitched, but also in with respect to the lack of CF
Thought about that one also. Hell I'll try anything well almost. LOL
Matt just noticed the photographer removal tool. Coming in version C1 version 7. LOL
Placed my order for the 43 centre filter today.
It should catapult an already amazing lens into the stratosphere! I will no longer need to rely so heavily on C1's LCC to correct falloff....... BRILLIANT!
If I'm the first, I'll start a new thread on the results when it arrives. However, this being Schneider, that may be some time.
Actually they are in stock from what I understand so it should be soon. I'm waiting patiently for mine.
BTW I can't quote the price but it was not bad at all for 43 and 60 . However the 28 is pricey actually waiting for real price on it. I hope this works or I will have to go back to the Rodie 28 which is no real loss anyway. I just like the 90mm image circle and the look and size of the SK better but it has to get rid of the magenta cast. I'm 90 percent sure it will.
Yes, for such a high quality glass filter you could almost say they are cheap on the 43 and why I didn't hesitate ordering one. Regarding the magenta cast, it too is there on the 43 when doing large amounts of shift (20mm, P65+) and I'm not sure if its more to do with the design of the chip than the fall off from the lens.
It may make the LCC process easier for C1 and produce less noise but being such a strong magenta cast anything within the magenta region of the colour spectrum is going to be effected by the LCC. It might be amazing and reducing the fall off also reduces the magenta cast but I have my doubts.
Non the less Guy, I still prefer the look of your tests done on the 28 SuperD and if I'd not just spent a load on a DF and a couple of long lenses, I'd be ordering one.
Look forward to your 28SuperD/CF results.
It did help with my 35 XL as it brought in 2 extra stops to the corners and eliminated the magenta cast. Its mostly falloff of the lens and the design, so that is where I am sitting right now. I like the look also why Im sticking to my guns right now. I have good vibes on this lens but the CF can't get here fast enough. I have zero patience on this stuff. Gimme it now is my middle name.
I would have to say given how much all this costs, if I am spending that much and a Center Filter is available for a lens, I am buying it. If it reduces the load of the LCC (and as a result, improves the image quality), I want it.
Yes, the CF's for the Rodenstock 23/28/32 are expensive, but so are the lenses. Even though a CF is not as essential for a 47mm or a 60mm, the price is also nowhere near the price of the CF's for the Rodie 23/28/32, so it still makes sense to me.
Steve if my CF comes today can you overnight it . LOL
I totally agree with you . It was glued on to my 35 XL and it will be on my 28 mm XL. There is just a good amount of falloff here that things need to get evened out. Although I will say the new tech analyze tool in C1 is performing extremely well. Whats bugging me is the sides of my frames more than the rise and fall areas. If you look on my zeroed out shot here yesterday it really showed up and did not show nearly as bad on my initial tests. Yesterday quick shoot got me.
Look at the right side you can see the magenta cast seeping in on the sky area.
Whats interesting to me it is clean on the top of the 12mm rise but still on the sides.
I realize the sides are closer to the image circle but even a 12mm rise you would think would seep in more but C1 is really cleaning that area up. Just a little baffling.
Have to say in all reality this is a Arch. shooters dream lens. If you can pull off a 10mm rise and fall and do a two shot vertical stitch that would also equal a 23mm width when you need to stretch it out than your are so golden I cant tell ya. What I like also with the 28mm is the look of the image to make it a very interesting prospective without looking wonky. Seriously this is a load of money to drop here but if a lens can do this perfectly i am all over it like you would not believe. You just don't get this outside of a view camera and not with this amount of absolute detail. This is a money lens folks, a lens like this will make you money in the commercial world. Not sure there is a Architect on the planet that would not like this amount of detail in showing off their work.
What do the uncorrected LCC captures look like for these two files Guy?
The first looks like you've shifted rather than a zeroed straight shot and the second looks like C1 has corrected the RHS but not touched the LHS.
here is one i know i zeroed out for sure
This is same image only a worked the light falloff to slightly darker
I still see it on the sides.
Im being picky as most may never see it but I do. LOL
I just think the LCC is being worked too hard and fall off is playing funny blighters with the colour cast algorithms.
CF will sort this I'm positive.
I agree. Thanks I just have to be patient and wait for it to come.
Thought I would finish this test off now armed with a center filter for the SK 28 which is about a 112mm filter as it is between the 95 filter ring and 125 filter ring. I would like to measure this actually to get a extra lens cap which it does come with but I always like to save the original caps in the box as they are always hard to replace. I also talked to Dave about the CF for the Rodie and the strange thing is it is actually bigger which makes no sense since the lens is not as big in diameter as the SK. I find that strange but anyway the CF fits nicely on the threads of the SK and you can leave it on all the time without a lot of bulk. Which is a huge plus for me as its a pain in the field taking filters on/off in the field.
Question is does it work and yes it does a very nice job of smoothing out the exposure across the frame but the magenta cast is still present before the corrected LCC is applied. Ill post a sample of this at the end as I really wanted to get to the final images and see how that magenta cast actually goes away. Now I stressed this pretty hard by going all the way to a 15mm rise which personally it did the job but I think 12mm is the safe zone. I did lose the noise in the extreme corners and the magenta cast after the corrected LCC is applied does go away. On the light falloff setting 100 percent is too strong so almost all of these are backed off to about 75 percent which as you will see gives a nice balance across the frame. I know myself sometimes I actually use the vignette tool a lot on images . I did not do it here for the test images but normally I would maybe even take it further . I just wanted to see the balanced out frame of pretty much equal value. I marked each image with what amount of rise I did.
I should also add if I was stitching vertical I can do the same amount given its moving in that same direction within the image circle so a 12mm stitch on either side gives me one heck of a wide angle in a two shot stitch. I love these options and the fact I can get to 12mm and it looks clean than it certainly has a big value to me at least. I know myself there is hardly ever a shot where I am not applying some amount of rise or fall on any lens.
Now these images are stretched beyond what a normal frame would look like and not every shot will need this amount of rise on it. But you have to test the limits so you know what kind of tool you have to work with. These are final corrected images after the LCC is applied and the light falloff adjusted to around 75 percent or to taste. BTW on a lot of these images I am very close to the subject which makes it tough to get the focus dead on. My markings on distance on the focus ring maybe off from switching it from meters to feet, so I am going to tether this today and double check this. For example 10 ft was not 10 ft in distance but this is not the lens but me reversing the focus ring it from meters to feet. I just need to get it exactly on target.
Crop of the above image at 100 percent
Crop of the very top left corner. Noise looks good and detail is looking good too. Just not sure I would take it this high on a paying gig but your not always going to have a important part of the image in the top corners so with sky who cares you can go here and be okay.
Reason I am going with the thought of 12mm as the safe zone. I just feel more comfortable with the corners and magenta cast not seeping in. 12mm is amazing for this kind of wide angle and as I go out for real shooting I will see how this pans out but given the Rodie goes to 7mm and this to 12mm makes the SK a nice bonus. The bonus on the Rodie is you can seem to get away without the CF and not deal with the magenta cast which does correct on the SK but I still think you should use one regardless. There still is a color cast and on critical work or personal preference not a bad idea to have. Frankly you spent this much money for perfection than go all the way. Honestly they are both amazing lenses and in my mind worth every penny spent. If you want the absolute best IQ in MF than go no further. This just smokes the Phase 28mm lens, sorry but I have to be dead honest on this. I really like this focal length and to me your widest lens that you decide to have in your bag will determine the rest of your lenses in your set. Pick the very wide first than take it from there is my opinion. The nice thing is the SK for me is both a 23 and a 28mm and my SK 60 with its enormous IC of 120mm gives me a huge stitching range to go wider on that so with two lenses I get a huge range in focal lengths . Of course that will involve stitching which is not always a option.
Now my disclaimer as you have seen and read this review it is directly aimed at MYSELF and my needs so please take your situation and apply what works for you but usually when I test this kind of stuff it is also for my benefit as well and I certainly wanted to put that out here so everyone completely understand this is my money and a lot of it and my decision plus the fact I am one crazy bastard and take huge risks on what gear I want in my bag. Base this on your needs and desires please.
Oops forgot one
Okay between MR Gilbert and myself we think we found the correct lens cap at 110mm. Thanks Steve
Schneider 110mm Push-On Lens Cap 91-030395 B&H Photo Video
This is one of he older shots of the SK 28 LCC at zero movements. NO CF
This is from yesterday with the CF. I would look at exposure balance than color
IF this don't work I will redo it at the same time.
I think you can get the idea the CF does do a nice job.
Thanks everyone end of test and hope this helps.
Thanks a lot, Guy!
Just one more question: Could you post a picture of the CF filter mounted to your SK28? I'm wondering how flat it is and if it allows for attaching a Lee adapter ring if you want to use a ND grad filter.
Yes it is a flat filter. I'll shoot one for ya
Guy, great shots, wish the weather looked like that here.
The CF for the 28mm Rodenstock is has rear threads of 72mm and front filter threads of 95mm. You can use a 5mm 95mm filter in front of the CF without getting hard vignetting from the filter. However you might lose some of the 7mm of shift with the CF and a filter as you might start to see the edge of the stack.
Paul thanks for adding that data. Makes sense maybe Dave was thinking the Rodie 23/32 filter instead. It sounded strange that it would be bigger, glad you cleared that up.