How many lights does it take to change a photographer?

[LJL]

O.K., since I had mentioned how nice it would be for a "Lighting Forum", and Guy obliged those requesting this, I feel a bit obligated to kick this off.

The topic title is not quite tongue in cheek, but dragged you in here, so that worked :clap:

This has been a struggle for me for decades. I have gone from the luxury of working in a full studio with hot lights, strobes, and just about everything in between. I then went the "minimalist" route for a while, believing that natural light only was the true art, or at most, a weak fill flash. (This period was probably brought on more by lack of money for gear at the time, so what else is new?)

That evolved into multiple small flash units to create a fast, very portable system. (I am mostly a Canon shooter, and will admit that I still envy the Nikon lighting capabilities in this area, but just HAD to prove it could be done with Canon speedlites and other things.) The biggest issue here has been really getting softened light when you need it most.

That continued the evolution back to packs and flash heads, but portability has always been a big driver, as I need to bring the studio to the client. My present kit for this are DynaLites, and they are working out wonderfully, but sometimes even they put out more light than one wants for shooting at f1.2 and stuff.

The most recent addition to the kit has been some Westcott Spiderlites, which use daylight balanced cool fluorescent bulbs. Have to say, they are not super bright, but they do put out a very nice continuous light at low cost, low heat, and can be toted about if you need to use them that way.

So what is the answer? Not sure, but so far, all of them. This was not a kit that I really planned, but have found that it does allow me to do most jobs, and it will allow for mix and match things too, like DynaLites in big softboxes with a fluorescent in close for key or accent, and small Canon flashes for creating hot accents in backgrounds and stuff. The key is knowing the limitations of the gear and the shooter. (Still working on the latter at this point :shocked: )

Not looking to start a brand war or anything of the sort. Would love to use Brons or Elincroms or Profotos, and have in the past, but all are too heavy, too bulky, and much more expensive. Is this foolhardy on my part? Should I just bite the bullet and spring for those Profotos?

With some of the new "accessories" now on the market for use with smaller flash units, for battery power, for attaching softboxes, etc., I am not so sure that the big boy systems matter as much, except for rental needs, replacement parts in out of the way places, and maybe brand loyalty. Wonder what others think about this?

BTW, I need to dig up a report where someone took the time to shoot the various flash units at different powers, and measured their color temp variation, etc. Interesting results.....the Elinchroms and Profotos, long touted for consistent light output and color, actually underperformed the small DynaLites. (Forget the Alien Bees and White Lightnings....they are cheap, but all over the map on color temp at different outputs.)

O.K., chip in as you see fit with experiences, thoughts, plans, images, whatever. Let's get this forum rolling along also.

LJ

 

[harmsr]

Hey LJ,

My turn to join you also, as I also lobbied for this forum.

I have done product stuff with lighting, Nascar cars & driver stills with lighting on the tracks, and am now getting into a fashion area.

Since selling the Nikon gear, I have really gone in three directions for lighting.

1) The minimalist with the M8, a Metz 54 either off camera with an SC-28 Nikon cord, or the Metz on a stand with an umbrella using a Paramount cord/Pocket wizard with another Pocket wizard on the M8 to trigger everything wirelessly. This a great low power, very light weight, one light kit.

2) Studio with two ProPhoto heads from a single generator (electric) that are primarily BG lights. I also have 3 of the AcuteB 600R units. For modifiers, I have the zoom reflectors that came with the heads, 2 - 7" grid reflectors, a Magnum for the daylight look, a 2' x 3' softbox, a 3' x 4' softbox, a 36" octa softbox, 45" & 60" convertible umbrellas, grids, gel holders, 48" flexfill gold/white reflector, stands / super clamps with extension arms, and two stands that are with booms. (Plus the required background stands for the seamless paper in 53" or 107")

3) The last is a location set-up where I just bring from 1-3 of the AcuteB 600R units with modifiers, stands, and reflector.

As I hopefully progress in skill, I am looking for comments on lighting set-ups from others that could improve what I do.

Looking forward to see this subforum grow.

Best,

Ray

 

[Bob]

I have been using a strange mix of Nikon strobes. My collection includes
SB800, SB600, three SB-200s and an SU-800 modified with a piece of film taped over the IR emitter (so the Sekinic meter does not get confused).
A couple of umbrellas and a few ad-hoc reflectors and away I go. Now if I could only get the SU-800 to work with the M8 (I haven't tried it with the Mamiya yet) I would be set for most of what I do in a very small studio.
I tend to run them in manual mode and have used them with various Nikon bodies.
I am looking for a longer term (yeah, right) solution, so I am VERY interested in this topic.
-bob

 

[LJL]

Ray,
Sounds like quite an arsenal to cover quite a bit. Question for you, and this goes for Bob also: are you finding that you really get enough controlled light with the smaller flash units, or are they still resulting in a "camera flash" look?

I have tried using various StoFen, Gary Fong and other "diffuser" type things on the small flash units, but they just do not spread the light out enough to avoid the point source effect. I just picked up something by Westcott called the MicroApollo that essentially is a tiny softbox that you mount to the flash head. It seems to help, but still not enough. (This is very much on the idea of the small softbox for the Qflash, but works on just about any unit.)

My reason for asking is that I have to do a lot of awards shots after the polo matches I shoot, and they are almost always needing fill or sometimes main flash. The on-camera set-up is easiest to deploy and allows me to move around for shots, but it is hard to overcome that harsh light from the point source. I have not had the time to set up larger heads and reflectors on stands, and things must be portable, as there is no juice available. I have tried going to a second flash on a stand, but still hate the harshness. This is not very flattering to sweaty, tired players that just want to get their trophy and leave to get a shower and a cold one ;-)

So, is there some easy, simple to deploy, very portable way to get a nicer, softer light for these shots, and be able to do it on the fly?

LJ

 

[LJL]

Bob,
Is the SU-800 thing a control unit only? (With Canon, I have something called the ST-E2, and it mounts to the camera, allowing me to control an A and B set of slaves flash units that are off camera, but must be within IR range. Not so great with bright light or streaking sunlight, limiting the effective range to under 30 ft.)

What about using PocketWizards from the M8 to whatever is your main controller unit that is off-camera? (The M8 has been a bit of a pain to use for flash, with few choices and compatibilities, so PWs and MicroSync units seem good for this. More "stuff" to carry and maintain and have cords to work with flash units, but they seem pretty bullet-proof for working.)

LJ

 

[harmsr]

LJ,

What I'm trying out is the Metz 54 and a 45" convertible umbrella on a small stand. I just recently purchased the Metz and hotshoe adaptor to fire it by Pocket wizard.

I am trying to use a light Manfrotto aluminum stand, with umbrella adaptor. Mounted on this via 1/4 - 20 stud is a Paramount hotshoe with a cable that connects to a Pocket Wizard. The Pocket wizard just hangs by the hand strap from the stand. I then mount the Metz in the hot shoe. On the M8, I have another Pocket Wizard mounted in the camera hot shoe that is transmitting and fires the Metz via the other Pocket Wizard.

It really is a very light and fast kit to set up. So far, I have been able to vary the distance of the umbrella to the flash and the stand to the subject in order to get very nice fill flash. I have used this set-up as reflected light so far, but also plan to remove the black covering on the umbrella and try it as shoot through.

I normally run the ISO on the camera at its lowest setting (in the case of the M8 it is 160) but just bump up the ISO by a stop or two if I need more light.

So far I'm pretty happy with the results for a quick / light kit and not bringing the real strobes. IMHO the results do NOT look like a "camera flash" or "point source" effect.

As I am continuing to play with this set-up, I'll post a few shots this weekend.

Best,

Ray

 

[Bob]

I am thinking I might try PWs since I think they would be pretty universal, but they add up pretty quickly.
I should probably just keep the nikon flash for use with the D3, but find something more universal for the rest.
Does anybody make a battery powered strobe with a built-in PW?
the Profoto -Rs seem pretty nice but heavy.
-bob

 

[TRSmith]

I have an interest in artificial light as well. My own history with it won't be that pertinent I'm afraid, the last time I was in a studio, the big guns were Norman 2000 WS power units (think hand truck to move them) with the various umbrellas soft boxes, etc. For toting around, it was the Metz potato masher thing. Now, I have only a Nikon SB800, which is amazing, and versatile, but a long way from real studio lighting.

However, I would really enjoy seeing examples using current lighting tech., both in the field and in the studio. Even to the point of showing the finished shot and then the lighting setup that achieved it. I find the various lighting solutions required for different subjects pretty interesting.

So I'm glad this forum is here, and will contribute whenever I can, but I look forward to your examples, explanations, and solutions. Thanks for starting this!

 

[LJL]

Bob,
The DynaLites I use have the PW built into the packhead. I also have the XP1100 rechargeable pure sine wave unit. That allows me to plug the pack into it and run up to four heads from the pack. Still not as compact or portable as the smaller flash units, but very versatile, and the battery unit delivers a full 1100Wsec of power with a pretty decent recharge compared to everything else I have seen. It also doubles as a very nice power supply for running a laptop.

The newer Profoto with its own battery is nice. I was and still am tempted, but it still is a lot heavier and bulkier than the lightweight DynaLite packhead and even two heads. I still have to add in the XP1100 battery, but I can use the DynaLites with mains if I have access without a problem also.

LJ

 

[LJL]

Ray,
I understand the lack of point source look shooting into the large umbrella. I carry several for that purpose also, and that does work very well. My issue has been with being able to quickly set something up, not have it knocked or blown over (I am working outside for all of this), and get a decent recharge.

For the superlight portable studio, what you describe does work nicely.

LJ

 

[harmsr]

Bob,

I opted for the ProPhoto AcuteB 600R that has the pocket wizard built in. The generator with battery, head, modifier, and stand only weigh about 20 lbs. complete. The pack & battery only measure 8"x5"x6" and weigh 10 lbs.

The more powerful units do get heavier faster.

The other thing you need to watch out for when selecting the units is how they run asymmetrically. For example, if I wanted a 1200W battery/generator unit. I could run a single head at 1200. I could also run two heads at lower power, but I don't have full asymmetric control to run whatever lighting ratio that I want. For that reason, I went with the AcuteB 600R units that I can run fully asymmetric as they are individually controlled. For my applications, the 600 units work out just fine. In the studio for product photography and really stopped down apertures, I would want more light but in this case can compensate for that with multiple pops on the lights that I have.

In a way this also gives me a lot of flexibility to do lighting however it is needed at location. I have bought bags to handle things as just one light, or two lights as seperate kits. When I need all three lights, then I bring both kits.

Best,

Ray


PS. These 600R units are fairly new to me but I just love them so far. Poor David at Dale Labs has spent soooooooooo mannnyyyyyyyy hours on the phone with me over the last several weeks helping me chose these new lights and answering a ton of questions. If you need lighting, I can't recommend anyone else more.

 

[Jack]

I have used most of the systems over the years and personal favorites are Broncolor, Elinchrom and Profoto (LOVE the D-4's) for in studio when lots of lights are needed, to the Elinchrom Rangers for portables. However, the Rangers work just fine in a studio for stills or product so can make a good double-duty alternative if you plan on using them both ways. I understand Broncolor has just released a very cool new portable unit too, but don't much about it.

For slaves I used to use the Pocket Wizard Multi-max's and like them a lot too, but lately have migrated to the Elinchrom SkyPorts -- they are smaller than the PW's and if you have Elinchrom RX units, allow you to adjust output right from the little transmitter on the camera OR wirelessly from a laptop.

However, while the hardware is neat to discuss, I think the most important thing with lighting is what gets put where and what gets used between the light and your subject, or the light modifiers. Here is what I'm most interested in hearing about, since there are an unlimited set of options to consider.

Let's get it going!

 

[harmsr]

Ray,
I understand the lack of point source look shooting into the large umbrella. I carry several for that purpose also, and that does work very well. My issue has been with being able to quickly set something up, not have it knocked or blown over (I am working outside for all of this), and get a decent recharge.

For the superlight portable studio, what you describe does work nicely.

LJ

LJ,

If you are constantly moving or in a crowd, I completely understand and also have not found a solution.

The solution I mentioned works for me outside with a very quick set-up, but not with a lot people moving around me or the subject moving.

If you come up with a solution for your situation, I would be very interested.

Best,

Ray

 

[LJL]

I have used most of the systems over the years and personal favorites are Broncolor, Elinchrom and Profoto (LOVE the D-4's) for in studio when lots of lights are needed, to the Elinchrom Rangers for portables. However, the Rangers work just fine in a studio for stills or product so can make a good double-duty alternative if you plan on using them both ways. I understand Broncolor has just released a very cool new portable unit too, but don't much about it.

For slaves I used to use the Pocket Wizard Multi-max's and like them a lot too, but lately have migrated to the Elinchrom SkyPorts -- they are smaller than the PW's and if you have Elinchrom RX units, allow you to adjust output right from the little transmitter on the camera OR wirelessly from a laptop.

However, while the hardware is neat to discuss, I think the most important thing with lighting is what gets put where and what gets used between the light and your subject, or the light modifiers. Here is what I'm most interested in hearing about, since there are an unlimited set of options to consider.

Let's get it going!

Jack,
Not sure if you are talking about gels on lights, softboxes, flags, diffusers or all of the above. And yes, they can make things work just so much nicer.

For the softboxes, I think the Plumes may be among the best I have seen and used. The baffles and construction make them strong, rather compact for even the larger sizes, and always putting out the most beautiful light. After that, many of the other softboxes, hexes and octas from Chimera, Profoto and others all do a very nice job. I have been liking white and silver interiors on the boxes for different things. The silver pumps out a bit more light and holds a bit harder edge than a white interior, and adding another diffuser to the silver boxes is just not quite the same.

On the diffusers, I always keep a big and small one around, as I shoot in sun a lot for some things, and popping up a diffuser works miracles for portraits. In a pinch, they work well as soft reflectors about a stop or two off direct. Not the same as a white reflector, but very effective for lighteng shadows without looking like heavy fill was pumped in or something.

On the flags and stuff, it is pretty much go with whatever you need to knock down hot spots. Unless it is a detailed studio set-up, I tend not to bother much, just watching what I shoot and making adjustments in post if needed.

Have not done too much gel work, but am looking seriously for a small, affordable, fresnel hot light that can be gelled for spot effect. At that point, the mixed lights almost do not matter to much, but I generally avoid mixing tungsten with daylight balanced stuff.

I am intrigued by some of the interesting work that Irakly does with mirrors, both as within frame objects, and to help bounce light around. Would like to here more from him on that.

On other reflectors, I have moved away from the silver and gold stuff in favor of soft white or "sunlight" as the strongest color add. That warm glow can really work nicely for portraits, but also for bathing a large background area with a bit of warm light in a shot. I started trying to push light down longer darker channels, like alleyways and between buildings, and the warmer light looks nicer, but does not carry as far.

As for how stuff is set up, well that looks to become a lot of interesting threads from this point on. I was hoping to lay some base on the lighting side, and get folks to think about the variety of things out there now, not everything having to be big, heavy and expensive. The Profotos, Brons and Elinchroms are all very high in the class, but some of the newer offerings from others, or things like the DynaLites, are not giving up much ground. My big concern is durability with them and consistent output. So far, the DynaLites have not been a disappointment at all, and are more compact and lighter than most. Again, not a brand battle, but offering some options for folks to think about.

This all looks like good fodder for the workshop in September. While Bron and others may be featured and used a lot, there are other excellent options coming to market lately worth considering too.

LJ

 

[LJL]

LJ,

If you are constantly moving or in a crowd, I completely understand and also have not found a solution.

The solution I mentioned works for me outside with a very quick set-up, but not with a lot people moving around me or the subject moving.

If you come up with a solution for your situation, I would be very interested.

Best,

Ray

Ray,
That is part of the problem....no staged area all the time, so mobility helps a lot. I am constantly moving and angling to get nicer backgrounds or eliminate distractions. If I had a more fixed set-up, I would go with a large umbrella in a heartbeat and get it over with The larger brand flash units from Metz, Nikon and Canon can throw out a lot of light, and work nicely in big umbrellas for a very soft wrapping light that looks completely natural.

The issue, as it will always be, is just how large the light source is and how close you can get it to the subject to wrap it around and get soft fall-offs. I have yet to see anything really portable that achieves this.

LJ

 

[Jack]

I guess I should clarify my comment a bit further. I have a good working knowledge of lighting, reflectors, softboxes, scrims, gobos etc. I am more interested in hearing some how others use the combinations of these creatively. For example, I knew a guy that shot smaller product. Almost all of his products were done with a single light: hard side, a black fill above and white below. Sounds horrible and I would have never thought of that set-up, but he had some of the most unique and interesting product shots I ever saw.

 

[LJL]

Jack,
Now I understand what you were getting at. Thanks for the clarification. I too want to hear and see what folks are doing there, as it really can help create some spectacular stuff.

The "standard" lighting arrangement will always work but gets boring really fast. I have really been liking the look of what you are describing....lit from below through a plex table or something, completely dark top and strong side light. Does not work for all things, but can be very dramatic for sure. Did he use an color for background, or just let things fade toward black upward?

Hmm, have to start playing around with some of that.

LJ

 

[Jack]

The lower fill was not lit just reflected, the upper a black-out fill. Background varied depending on product.

 

[Bob]

Well,
I just ordered a Ranger RX.
My thoughts are to fill in later with either a ranger rxa-s or perhaps with a couple of their rx monolights.
The profoto acuteb 600r was a contender, but I just kink of liked the whole elincrom package better unless I were going to go the Profoto D4 route which looks very nice indeed but at att dear an entry point.

 

[LJL]

Bob,
I think it a good choice also. Congrats. The Profoto portable unit you mention is nice, and I did seriously think about it for a bit. The one thing that did sort of stop me was the head is not compatible with other Profoto set-ups, like the D4, and other Acute heads cannot be used with the portable pack. That may also be the case with the Elinchroms, but the Ranger unit just seemed more attractive to start also.

LJ