More MF Questions (resolution)

[Shelby Lewis]

In line with my previous posts about lenses and all... I'm interested in some anecdotes from all you guys who shoot various mf and 35mm systems... and this request is driven solely by budget, lol.

I've shot canon for a number of years, as well as a sony a900 for about 6 months, and now canon 5d mark II's for the studio I shoot weddings for. I'm almost onboard as a general creative director for a small clothing company I've shot for (meaning I'll be shooting, laying out the catalogs, designing the website, running the blog, getting everyone coffee )... and we're looking to improve the equipment we're shooting with.

I'm presently on track towards a p30/-30+... but have recently seen that original p45 backs go well below $9K and p25 backs at around $5-6K. With those prices, we might actually be able to upgrade the on-location computers as well....

So, speaking in terms of resolution, how do the 22mp backs fair against the canons/nikons/sony ... and is there a huge difference between the 22 and 31 mp backs? I think the 22mp would be sufficient for us, but I fear moire would be a problem since I shoot fabrics (even though they aren't woven fabrics). Ultimately, the p30+ (or original p45) looks like the best bet, but man the current used back prices are very compelling.

Guy, wanna let me borrow yours... I promise I'll bring it back

 

[Henry Goh]

I'm using a P30+ now. Before buying into MFDB, I spent some 2 years watching and waiting for the "right" time. In the course of my research, I've come to the conclusion that if you are shooting subjects with fine fabrics often, then you would want to avoid the P25 / P25+. If what you are shooting requires a lot of wide angle shots, then perhaps the P45 / P45+ would be better. If you are shooting weddings, my own preference would still be P30 / P30+. Using the P30+ means I avoid moire which can show up more often in the P25 backs. P30+ also has a crop factor of 1.3 so I'm not affected as much by lenses that are weak in acuity at the corners. The only limiting negative point is you'll be limited to a FOV of about 24mm (in 35mm equivalence) since the widest lens is around 28mm at the moment.

I recommend you go for it and buy into MFDB but keep your Canon system until you no longer find you pick it up over your MFDB.

 

[Jack]

What Henry said -- and since you'll be shooting clothing, I'd definitely be concerned about moire... Plus the "plus" backs have some significant advantages. Moreover, the P30+ has microlenses which acts like a sort of very mild AA filter, mitigating moire even a bit more over the same pixel-pitched P45+... P40+ is theoretically even a bit better still.

 

[Shelby Lewis]

Thanks all... you guys said what I thought you would. I'll not be using the camera at weddings. I would, for sure, but the guy I shoot for is a canon nut and only uses lightroom (actually he subs out his post processing). If I handed him a card with some .iiq files, he's send it off to datasavers to get it "fixed" :ROTFL:

This is only going to be for the clothing and for my personal art projects. I'm basically shutting my own studio down and am only going to shoot "serious" art portraiture and the occasional high school senior that's willing to pay for something different.... the rest of my time will be in fashion (and hopefully coming out to workshops .

The more I repeat the above paragraph to myself, the more the p30+ looks to fit the bill. I shot the p40+ last week in birmingham as well... VERY nice, but out of my budget.

 

[Dale Allyn]

Shelby, you've already gotten great info here, but I'll add a voice for emphasis. I shoot the P25+ (which is going up in value every day – due to rarity :ROTFL: ) but I try my hardest to avoid subject which include fabrics... um that sounds wrong. I mean that I'm not shooting clothing catalogs or weddings, senior portraits (although I did last weekend) etc. Moire' does come up with the P25+ in certain shots such as those including roofs or some fabrics. I've been lucky regarding fabrics, but I'd not want to stake my business on it.

While a P45+ or possibly a P65+ would be great for stuff I like to shoot, it seems that the P30+ is an ideal mix for the work you've shown and described.

 

[carstenw]

Shelby, you don't mention which camera system you are looking at. Make sure that you get the back in the right mount, since it can otherwise be 1) expensive, 2) burn up a mount-switch option, and/or 3) take a lot of time to get the right mount.

 

[steflaurent974]

Well, all precedent arguments are true. I do shoot a P25+ with Schneider Digitar lens, and my main subject is landscape.
I have to say that the resolution given by the lens + sensor is really good, and in fact the P25+ have really gorgeous colors (9 micron pixel seems to do the job). So it's true that this 22mp sensor is still something people are looking after.

The big issue here is the moiré, wich can occurs as said before.

I don't own a modern DSLR with big resolution to compare, but I did compare the files with a M8 and know with a M9 (it is 18MP) and the lens+phase sensor did the job, it is still better.

 

[Digitalcameraman]

Shelby:

You are right on target with P30+ for your work. Best for fabrics outside P65+.Plus has more internal ram buffer so shooting tethered and faster without buffering will be worth the upgrade to Plus. And it has better high ISO so you can do your other work with it. Not to mention the resell value down the road when you want to trade up. P40+ would be even better as far as resell value.

If you shoot fabrics, woven or not woven, stay away from any 22 MP camera with 9 micro pixel size. This is a morie waiting to happen. I work with a large number of people who shoot for catalogs and they extra retouching and problem solving morie reduction will kill your production. Even blue jeans very hard to shoot on figure without some morie work to be done in post. P1 morie filters good but sometimes you cannot get rid of all of it without cloning.

Full length shots or 3/4 will have more of this unless you can really compress it when shooting with long lens. I remember when P1 brought the proto type LP to show me and several of my customers before it was released. The President at P1 at the time was a hands on guys show the camera and taking pictures. Very refreshing. He wanted to use a longer lens for all the test 120mm Macro and even a 150mm. Those longer lenses would compress the image and not show as much morie as a 80mm lens. Something I learned 12 years ago from him. Color Aliasing is also reduced when using longer lenses.


Good Luck


PS. I hear that Leica S2 is astounding on morie. No one has been able to get the Leica S2 to morie even with many different fabrics or textures. That is very impressive.





Chris Snipes
Phase One Reseller Florida
www.imageproduction.com
[email protected]

In line with my previous posts about lenses and all... I'm interested in some anecdotes from all you guys who shoot various mf and 35mm systems... and this request is driven solely by budget, lol.

I've shot canon for a number of years, as well as a sony a900 for about 6 months, and now canon 5d mark II's for the studio I shoot weddings for. I'm almost onboard as a general creative director for a small clothing company I've shot for (meaning I'll be shooting, laying out the catalogs, designing the website, running the blog, getting everyone coffee )... and we're looking to improve the equipment we're shooting with.

I'm presently on track towards a p30/-30+... but have recently seen that original p45 backs go well below $9K and p25 backs at around $5-6K. With those prices, we might actually be able to upgrade the on-location computers as well....

So, speaking in terms of resolution, how do the 22mp backs fair against the canons/nikons/sony ... and is there a huge difference between the 22 and 31 mp backs? I think the 22mp would be sufficient for us, but I fear moire would be a problem since I shoot fabrics (even though they aren't woven fabrics). Ultimately, the p30+ (or original p45) looks like the best bet, but man the current used back prices are very compelling.

Guy, wanna let me borrow yours... I promise I'll bring it back

 

[Bob]

Shelby:
--snip--

PS. I hear that Leica S2 is astounding on morie. No one has been able to get the Leica S2 to morie even with many different fabrics or textures. That is very impressive.


Chris Snipes
Phase One Reseller Florida
www.imageproduction.com
[email protected]

That is disappointing, perhaps it has not been shot on-tripod or they have not yet got the lenses right.

I am really hoping that it is capable of moire, otherwise it will not support the sharpness expectations of the Leica fan-base due to an over-strong AA filter, or if they are killing it with firmware, then it won't be delivering the resolution that I hope the lenses might deliver.

 

[carstenw]

Bob, you need to look at the samples available. Sharpness will not be an issue. They results are shocking in their detail.

 

[Bob]

Bob, you need to look at the samples available. Sharpness will not be an issue. They results are shocking in their detail.

My point was relative to moire.
It must be capable of moire if it is sharp, or the illusion of sharpness was created with in-camera processing.
-bob

 

[Shelby Lewis]

My point was relative to moire.
It must be capable of moire if it is sharp, or the sharpness was created with in-camera processing.
-bob

... or maybe it resolves beyond the ability to produce moire on the computer screen/print. Who knows. I'm with carsten in that the examples I've seen are scary sharp.

Funny how Leica always has the ability to spin threads into off-topicville

Thanks everyone for confirming what I was already suspecting. As far as mounts, I'm really looking at the mamiya system. A week or so ago, I met with some of the CI guys and tested a phamiya body and an h1 and really liked how the phase body felt in the hand compared to the hassy. I have smallish hands and the sharper contouring of the hassy was really uncomfortable.

The ONLY thing I don't like about the mamiya system is that I'd like to shoot the rz67 as well, and in order to do so I have to get the ProII D body in order to use a mamiya-mount back on both cameras. That's a minor concern though.

 

[carstenw]

I have heard that the extra abilities of the ProIID body over the plain ProII can actually get in the way, so you might save some money there. I forget the details, but given the heads on this forum I am sure someone will have the proper answer in a few minutes.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Shelby for the money the P30+ is the best way to go, no question. I would like to move up to the P40+ and sell my P 30+ for more the speed of the back also Sensor Plus is a advantage for me. And I may just go this route since the S2 is still a ways out for me if I went that direction but my issue is the cost difference between the the P30 and P40 and since it is so new hard to find a P40+ demo but when I see Dave at the workshop will see what direction makes sense for me. But on the same token the P30+ has not let me down in any way either. I'm in gear flux on what I want now. But I am not unhappy in the slightest, I just been sitting very quietly on the buy button for a long time and I just may get thrown out of the gear slut club at any moment. But I have a nasty itch right now. LOL

 

[Jack]

... or maybe it resolves beyond the ability to produce moire on the computer screen/print.

Folks, it absolutely *HAS* to produce moire if it sharp -- it's a property of optical physics as digital sensors approach their Nyquist limit that you cannot argue with. (In fact, you can use the presence of such patterns as CONFIRMATION of perfect focus!) While it is possible the frequency patterns tested in the fabrics photographed with the S2 so far remained were all above the Nyquist limits of the S2 sensor, it is extremely unlikely that is the case.

A few added comments on "sharpness" ... Keep in mind there are two types of sharpness -- actual ability to resolve high-frequency detail as measured in LP/mm. However, that measurement also usually includes some standardized minimum contrast ratio to keep comparisons in line. The second is perceived sharpness, which is almost totally a function of contrast. So a lens/camera system can generate higher apparent sharpness if contrast is exceptionally high. If you present an image form a lens capable of rendering 20 LP/mm of very high contrast next to the same image taken with a lens that renders 40 LP/mm but is of lower contrast, 99% of humans will chose the 20 LP/mm image as the sharper one when it is not. Note too that the two optical properties of contrast and resolution are at odds in lens design -- as you increase a lens' contrast with special coatings, it's ability to resolve is lowered. Coatings actually REDUCE resolution.

Here's the nit: Historically, Leica has chosen resolution over contrast in their lens designs. If the moire claim is in fact accurate -- and I am not suggesting it is -- then that would indicate that Leica has altered their philosophy on designing lenses to favor contrast and transmission over resolution...

 

[Jack]

Pro II v Pro II D body: Main difference is the D's ability to shoot WITHOUT a cable running form the lens' PC port to the back and getting camera exif data into the file. Otherwise you can use the P backs on an old RB or any other system that has a flash PC port on the lens...

 

[Shelby Lewis]

Shelby for the money the P30+ is the best way to go, no question. I would like to move up to the P40+ and sell my P 30+ for more the speed of the back also Sensor Plus is a advantage for me.

I was waiting on this reply :ROTFL:

I shot the p40+ a few weeks ago on a phase body. It was really nice. Speedy... and the resolution was just scary. There is (rightfully so) a bunch of hype about the s2 system... but as far as resolution goes (in real world instances)... I think phase is already there. I can't see needing more unless you are doing ULTRA high end landscape work. And even then, I wonder.

The S2 seems to me to be more about integration, usability, and the "look" from the Leica glass... at the expense of cost and interchangeability. I know it'll be a great system.

Thanks for the anecdotes... they are helpful indeed. PM me if you want to talk about selling in the future (again, lol).

 

[Shelby Lewis]

Pro II v Pro II D body: Main difference is the D's ability to shoot WITHOUT a cable running form the lens' PC port to the back and getting camera exif data into the file. Otherwise you can use the P backs on an old RB or any other system that has a flash PC port on the lens...

Yeah... but if I understand correctly (probably not, lol), the ProII takes a v-mount phase back whereas the ProIID works with an afd-mount phase back. Can the ProII actually use the mamy plate + a cable?

 

[kdphotography]

Shelby for the money the P30+ is the best way to go, no question. I would like to move up to the P40+ and sell my P 30+ for more the speed of the back also Sensor Plus is a advantage for me. .... I just been sitting very quietly on the buy button for a long time and I just may get thrown out of the gear slut club at any moment. But I have a nasty itch right now. LOL

It sounds like Guy needs to sell his P30+ to Shelby, and then give CI a call....

Don't let your fellow gear sluts/whores down, Guy. We're here for your support and encouragement...

:ROTFL:

 

[Shelby Lewis]

Don't let your fellow gear sluts/whores down, Guy. We're here for your support and encouragement...

:ROTFL::ROTFL::ROTFL:

now... THAT was funny.