Tease of the year?

[Guy Mancuso]

OK Guy, now I AM lost! But if you see the leaf lens as being lower contrast in these shots at F5.6 (of the cross with the church wall behind) then you're right.
I see that in most series of comparative shots where the subject matter doesn't have huge contrast range. It gets swamped in the cherub shots cos there's higher contrast in the scene and the setup changed a little but in all the tripod series, the leaf lens is lower contrast and that gives slightly nicer bokeh BUT as we all know, Clarity sliders KILL bokeh!

Yes sorry i should have actually rewrote the whole post but yes i see the leaf lens as a little lower in the mid range contrast and yes Clarity can affect the bokeh . I was just wondering how much it was in value more than anything else.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

For current AFDIII users that deal with more speed issue the upgrade path is certainly worth it alone. Folks thinking of getting into the system may see it as a normal purchase and what the body should be but us users currently see the upgrade in a little different light and more a must have now. Certainly some real improvements for me for sure. Also it will be a better selling point for Phase dealers that they have a camera designed for digital and now with the leaf lenses a no compromises selling position. Overall this is a very good announcement and I will say Hassy as well with there H4 announcement. What is good is even through some very difficult economic troubles in the world they both found the resources to plow forward. That alone is a good sign for the industry and hopefully everyone thinks the same. Sure may not be all that you wanted but the progress alone is awesome.

For me this is what i was really after was a better body. This made my day

 

[carstenw]

Tim, did they reintroduce the possibility of having AF on the rear button?

 

[tashley]

Tim, did they reintroduce the possibility of having AF on the rear button?

Not as far as I can see but I have no documentation other than a provisional CF list so I will have to check it out in the morning!

 

[tashley]

Shake performance at 1/5th sec, leaf vs non leaf.

The following is at F16, 1/5th of a second with the new leaf lens, MUP

The next is the old lens on the new body but with FP shutter, also at F16, 1/5th and MUP

I think this shows that with a good tripod (a Gitzo Carbon Fibre GT3541LS ) and head (Arca Cube) the benefits of the leaf shutter from the POV of shake are not significant. More intriguing would be the same test with a less stable (and lighter!) rig, which I no longer have to hand but which might show that the leaf shutter makes a difference with easier to travel with tripod and head combinations...

 

[Jack]

Re: Shake performance at 1/5th sec, leaf vs non leaf.

I think this shows that with a good tripod (a Gitzo Carbon Fibre GT3541LS ) and head (Arca Cube) the benefits of the leaf shutter from the POV of shake are not significant.

:ROTFL::ROTFL::ROTFL:

Can I say, "I told you so!" now?

What's interesitng to me here, is the FP lens actually looks sharper (and obviously better contrast) than the LS lens, which is perhaps a function of the former being better optimized for close focus distances?

 

[Jack]

Tim:

Can you confirm the new body did away with the 6 AA battery thing and went to Li+ batteries that charge on the Phase back charger?

 

[tashley]

Tim:

Can you confirm the new body did away with the 6 AA battery thing and went to Li+ batteries that charge on the Phase back charger?

Jack, the battery pack remains unchanged - in fact I took the one from my 645III as a spare and it worked. There should be an optional vertical grip at some point which will take the same battery as the Phase backs and also allow body FW updates.

The unchanged battery pack is one of the reasons I'd describe the new body as an evolution not a revolution. It's a useful update and for those (such as me) eligible for the upgrade, worthwhile but not earth shattering. I did ask if there was to be at least a NiCad pack that fits the slot but can be charged together as one unit, like in some Metz guns, and it is apparently a possibility.

Phase and Hassy both made announcements today - just as the S2 is about to ship. FOr many people considering an S2, these two announcements would appear guaranteed to muddy the water - especially since the upgrade pricing is attractive on the new Phase body and will require people to apply soon but probably not get the swap-out until Q1 2010. So they will be less likely to sell their current body second hand now when a wait of three to four months will give them a more valuable body for a low price. And if they aren't going to sell their old body now, they might be holding of any switch to the S2 that would have been funded by such a sale...

It's a tough time to be making decisions here!

 

[tashley]

Re: Shake performance at 1/5th sec, leaf vs non leaf.

:ROTFL::ROTFL::ROTFL:

Can I say, "I told you so!" now?

Go on dude, say it: you know how good it feels!

What's interesitng to me here, is the FP lens actually looks sharper (and obviously better contrast) than the LS lens, which is perhaps a function of the former being better optimized for close focus distances?

I think it probably isn't sharper in any appreciable way but has stronger contrast and therefore acutance, which might also be why the newer lens has nicer bokeh. That opinion is a tough call though, and I'd like to do some more shooting before I'd put my money where my mouth is!

 

[Jack]

Jack, the battery pack remains unchanged - in fact I took the one from my 645III as a spare and it worked.

Okay, I just finished my evening martini, but frigging *#$^%! &#^*, @#*%, @^&& and #$*&^*! How hard could it have been?

There should be an optional vertical grip at some point which will take the same battery as the Phase backs and also allow body FW updates.

Ewwwwe... goodie gee wow.

The unchanged battery pack is one of the reasons I'd describe the new body as an evolution not a revolution. It's a useful update and for those (such as me) eligible for the upgrade, worthwhile but not earth shattering.

Yep. well stated...

 

[Jack]

Re: Shake performance at 1/5th sec, leaf vs non leaf.

I think it probably isn't sharper in any appreciable way but has stronger contrast and therefore acutance, which might also be why the newer lens has nicer bokeh. That opinion is a tough call though, and I'd like to do some more shooting before I'd put my money where my mouth is!

Well it appears both slightly sharper and with obviously better micro contrast. I see bokeh as a virtual draw at this point -- looking at the pointed headstone background right in the first two image sets, it appears to me that both have basically the same line patterning, soft and neither is bad, but then neither is perfect. However, it is good to see the Schneider can hold it's own against the Mamiya glass. (Okay, feeling the heat! )

 

[Shelby Lewis]

I have to say that, in the first few sample shots, that the bokeh seems noticeably nicer... not a huge, smack you in the face, difference... but still there. Looking at flowers in the far bg as well as the top edge of the wall in the upper left. Especially @ 2.8. I appreciate that even with higher microcontrast that the bg doesn't get wiry. To me, that's one of the hallmarks of fine lenses... sharpness and (brutal ) microcontrast at the focal plane in combination with a very fluid bokeh.

The new leaf lens is getting there. I'd like to see some shots in different environs.

Thanks Tim!

 

[PeterA]

I think you guys are seeing things...re bokeh ??

Tashley - nice post - well done ..yep keep buying those batteries boyz..:ROTFL:

but it IS good that there is now another 'player' releasing Leaf lenses - on a body that can shoot both Leaf and Focal plane -without the convertor ala 'Blad

 

[Bob]

This reminds me a bit of some committees upon which I sit.
Folks studying out-of-focus blobs and rendering judgment.
These look too close to call IMO.
But the body sounds interesting and I am sure a leaf lens will be coming my way soon I hope. The 110 I think.
-bob

 

[Geoff]

Very good post. The images are interesting. At first glance, there didn't seem to be much difference - but look on the top of the first images - at the framing of the rectangular elements (tombstones, or in one of the pictures, a vertical window). The OOF rendition of the leaf lens is more gentle, the transition from the striaght line to blur is more smooth. In the FP lens, there are more remnants of the strong vertical edge still lingering in the image.

For me, this is one of the great strengths of the Schneider lenses on the Rollei system: the OOF rendition is just ... creamy smooth. Very delightful. It may not show up well in the reduced on line version, but its there nonetheless. A good Leica lens has it too, but there are examples of both that can lose it also. For example, the 60 mm Schneider is fantastic, the 40 mm a bit harder edge to it. Still good, but not quite the same. It may take some time to figure out the specific quality of each lens design.

Does anyone know if these are new formulations by Schneider, or just new housings?

Geoff

 

[carstenw]

One thing to keep in mind is that the 80mm f/2.8 lens is not really the place to look for huge differences. These designs are old and relatively standard, with minor tweaks. The only one with a significantly different design is the Leica 70mm f/2.5, as far as I know.

I will be much more curious to compare the 55mm to the Contax, and the 110mm to the Zeiss and HC Hasselblad 100mm lenses, and the F/FE and Rollei 110mm.

 

[tashley]

Very good post. The images are interesting. At first glance, there didn't seem to be much difference - but look on the top of the first images - at the framing of the rectangular elements (tombstones, or in one of the pictures, a vertical window). The OOF rendition of the leaf lens is more gentle, the transition from the striaght line to blur is more smooth. In the FP lens, there are more remnants of the strong vertical edge still lingering in the image.

For me, this is one of the great strengths of the Schneider lenses on the Rollei system: the OOF rendition is just ... creamy smooth. Very delightful. It may not show up well in the reduced on line version, but its there nonetheless. A good Leica lens has it too, but there are examples of both that can lose it also. For example, the 60 mm Schneider is fantastic, the 40 mm a bit harder edge to it. Still good, but not quite the same. It may take some time to figure out the specific quality of each lens design.

Does anyone know if these are new formulations by Schneider, or just new housings?

Geoff

Thank you Geoff and well spotted: my opinion is exactly as you observed, and I can't describe it better than you. The interesting thing for me was that I was considering a move to the S2 system precisely because of the lack of poetry in the rendition of the Phase/Mamiya glass, whereas I am now back to the drawing board, given that these lenses sound significantly cheaper than the new Leica glass...

 

[Paratom]

wasnt there a roumor some time ago that the new Mamiya should have an interchangable viewfinder? Did they skip this idea?

 

[Ben Rubinstein]

Am I the only one who finds the bokeh of the new lens to be busier?

 

[Jack]

Am I the only one who finds the bokeh of the new lens to be busier?

Nope -- but I would add it depends where in the images you look. In some areas the old lens is a bit busier, in others it's the new lens that's a bit busier -- and I'd add we are talking mostly irrelevant differences to begin with. And thus why I called them a relative tie