I don't really use PS any more so a workaround is not an option. Just to much time waste. I still don't get it why Phase is limiting LCC files to Phase one raws...
Profits? None of us can really know how it would really go if they were to open it up, but I can see why they think that way. Why help the competition improve their products too much? Somewhere they are bound to draw the line.
I think this is partly correct, although I don't think it is so much a case of stinginess as it is profitability. The amount of time spent on producing LCC capability for multiple cameras that rarely encounter it is not going to have a payback. So it's not so much keeping the competition down as it is - is there a payoff for the effort itself.
That's my take anyway.
On the programming and implementation level I honestly don't know enough about what is involved in providing that functionality in the software. It could be really easy. But I still think it's a case of spending time on something that isn't going to have a payoff. Even if it is an easy process, my read is that the engineers have a huge list of priorities and there's a multitude of options, requests, etc that get pushed aside due to the priority rank.
To me, that's always been one of the most difficult elements of the product development process. "It would be great if we could also put in X, Y, Z, but we only have 26 days remaining to produce J, K, L...in order to release on such and such a date, etc..."
Well I can't hold it against phase and it certainly is a LOT more important that a 40k back can be used with live preview on BOTH mac and windows. Compared to a small LCC correction for some very few wide angle lenses on Leica cameras.
I just find it funny that Leica now ships with LR which has still no profile and Phase was much faster releasing one.
For the PS thing, yes I work on my fine art prints in PS, but only for prints at the last stage. (resizing and sharpening) Everything else is done in Lightroom.
Import with Lightroom --> Edit, select ---> use C1 as raw converter ---> re-inport 16bit Tiffs in Lightroom --> finish the files in Lightroom
When it comes to profit I think it is the other way around. Now that there are no real SIMPLE solutions anymore to use a 12mm or 15mm NONE-Leica lens, Leica will get quite a few people buying their lenses again. Yes there is PS and Corner fix, but the first is time consuming and the second son far not good enough with the m9.
Edit: Well i too don't know enough about programming, so I can't say if it is difficult or not. Just would be great to have if it is not.
Last edited by Christopher; 1st October 2009 at 13:58.
There's a new version of cornerfix out as of now and it looks quite a bit better... but I agree, fewer steps and exceptions to workflow is good.
Hmm..... at the risk of
Still no details on the "groundbreaking" flash sync?
Can anyone confirm that this is a real spec and if it actually works? I'm sure I'm not the only one interested.
While I would love to have seen this for myself and talk to those in the know about it, seems Phase One will be a no-show at Photo Plus.
I found out a few days ago that as a Mamiya Digital dealer, I will have the opportunity to sell the new 645DF with either a 33 or 56MP Leaf back. And, the info to dealers from Mamiya is about as vague as the press release from Phase. In other words, no one seems to know.
Your beating a dead horse just like the S2 the new Hassy and this until they are out to dealers and others certain features and functions will come out. You know this better than anyone and as a dealer should you not be telling us.
No interchangeable viewfinder?
New Schneider leaf shutter lenses look good. Nice move.
The next big thing is the ability to use the LS lenses and to operate the focal plane shutter ONLY, thus saving on the leaf shutter life and enabling speeds of up to 1/4000 sec. You can also choose to let it switch shutters automatically: The LS up to 1/800 and then the FP takes over from there
I know that some Phase One dealers went to Denmark for the announcement last week. I'd assume that they had a chance to handle the new camera and talk directly to product managers/engineers. I was hoping that they might be able to offer some more details on such an important new feature. I can understand waiting on seeing final results, but given that the 1/1600th sync is a published spec and touted as one of the key features of the new camera. I'd expect that Phase One would be more forthcoming with details on this. Since nobody is sharing, I can only assume that no one really knows and we'll just have wait and see.
I must say, while I love the concept of the S2 and the nice features and handling and all other stuff like Leica glass, I like even more what I see coming from Phase.
Their new concept appeals MUCH MUCH more to what I want (and I assume also many others):
1) removable digi back and thus easily scalable to new sensor generations
2) larger sensor size and more state of the art sensors (DALSA)
3) first time leaf and shutter speed lenses in this size of MF (sorry I do still not consider Leica S2 to be a MF camera)
4) new lenses from Schneider coming - for me at least equally good and great as Leica lenses, especially their new designs (and yes I know that there are some other opinions here )
5) The rest you can get very excellent Mamiya glass
6) New camera much faster
7) best flash sync in town - although I personally could not care less for that feature as mainly landscape photographer, but I understand that many are excited about this
8) most flexible system as backs are easily usable with view cameras
9) C1Pro - consider this still the best RAW PPSW together with PS CS4 after looking in the latest and greatest LR version and also Phocus
WRT Leica PM - well David, I m not soooo convinced about what they say and find and prioritize, simply the approach of smaller sensor size, less pixels should be made up by great new Leica processing (which due to their saying neither Phase nor Hasselblad could do better after all their experiences over the last years processing) and Leica glass???? I also talked to their PM in Vienna in September ....
Very big questionmarks and sorry, but sounds to me rather more marketing than really technically proven
Last edited by ptomsu; 3rd October 2009 at 06:40.
I think Leica's doing a great job delivering S2 articles. I'm sure yours will be welcomed.
Do they have plans for delivering any cameras soon?
I just spoke with Leica a few days ago and the first delivery of S2s will be in 2 weeks. Depending on customs, the first units to hit the US will be in 2-3 weeks. There should be full production cameras at Photo Plus in NYC.
I was in Germany from Aug 17-21 testing the S2 and M9, along with Michael Reichmann, Sean Reid, and Phil Askey (although Phil left early and didn't shoot with the S2).
The cameras we were given to use were Null-Series production cameras, which is the last stage of pre-production. The hardware was final except for things like body covering. The firmware was still early.
I used the 70 and 180, although I did get an opportunity to test out an early version of the 120 APO Macro. Optically it was the final design, but that particular lens didn't have an AF motor in it, so I had to manually focus using the electronic focus confirmation in the viewfinder (which works pretty well).
I will have pictures in my review...which is coming shortly.
Do us all a favor include the raws.
Also David from what I have heard of the dealers it was a sales meeting not a technical one or any testing going on. This is simply a release of a updated body and some new lenses far from being a major release like a new back or something of that nature. When The S2 was announced we had NO details over a year ago on anything from a engineering point of view. And we really still don't . You had the opportunity to test it and talk to engineers good for you but from a users seat we really still don't know anything about the guts of the S2 just like when they announced the M9 a couple weeks ago all of us only go by the specs given on any camera released and until it is out on the streets some things are not known, this is very normal. So I find it very strange you see this as some kind of hidden agenda when every manufacture tells us users very little on the guts of any camera being released and this is even less important because it is a body without any sensor involved. David half of the answers are already out there and how they did it is something we don't know just yet no one has it in there hands for testing but they figured out a way. Can we at least give them credit for that. Just like Hassy found a way with there HD4 body to do True Focus/Absolute Position Lock are we going to question the engineering or how it will actually work for the shooter. Seriously as a dealer with many products and sells Mamiya and Leica is this not good news for your business.
David and all,
My posts here and on LL about the new 645DF came after 2 days of working with it in Barcelona and I expect to have more time with it over the next days. There are already a few early production units in the field (see Tim's teasing post) so you should expect more hands-on information available soon.
The LS lenses are capable of 1/800 max shutter/ sync speed and in combination with patented (pending) technology on the Dalsa chips you'll be able to reach 1/1600. That's 2-3 times faster than the S2...
The beauty in this is that you can use an old DB (6MP-60MP...) on the new body with the new lenses and enjoy the high sync speed along with up to 1/4000 when utilising the FP shutter.
Thanks Yair and as I mentioned earlier the legacy backs like the P30+ and P45+ Kodak sensors would only go to 1/800 and my bet is because of the wake up issue more than anything else and the new P40+ and P65+ Dalsa do not have a wake up issue and that I know since we don't need a wake cable for them. Yair forgive me but I do not know of the Leaf backs that can go either way and maybe you can go over them.
That is my assumption on this and for me with the P30+ I can get 1/800 with the LS glass and still maintain my 1/4000 when I need it. That works for me and maybe a lot of folks as well. Obviously the P40+ which is on my radar screen will do 1/6000.
So in the end it sounds like the limit is in the back itself and not the new LS lenses which is capable of the top 1/6000 speed. And only with the new body I would assume as well.
Wow, I am getting more dizzy from reading you than from a driving a roundabout at high speed. More opinion-changes
You may prefer larger sensors. Personally, I would take better image quality any day. Let's see how this one works out in real life.2) larger sensor size and more state of the art sensors (DALSA)
Dalsa sensors are not better than Kodak sensors, but are just as good, with different people preferring different looks (and both sensors are able to deliver different looks, as evidenced by Leaf vs. Sinar, and Phase vs. Hasselblad). The main difference is that Phase backs can make long exposure times with the Kodak, but not the Dalsa sensor. Again, let's wait and see how the image quality works out.
The "Medium" in "Medium Format" refers to cameras which lie between small format (Kleinbild, or 35mm) and large format (4x5, 8x10, ...). I think you mean something else with this.3) first time leaf and shutter speed lenses in this size of MF (sorry I do still not consider Leica S2 to be a MF camera)
Since you have never seen, used, or seen results from a Leica S lens, you are not basing this opinion on knowledge, but on something else.4) new lenses from Schneider coming - for me at least equally good and great as Leica lenses, especially their new designs (and yes I know that there are some other opinions here )
Your point eludes me. "Schneiders are as good as Leicas, and Mamiyas too"? I know few people who would make statements like that, even fans of Mamiya and Schneider. A few focal lengths might be as good, but probably not more. Let's wait and see which ones. My guess: the Mamiya 150mm D, and the Schneider 110mm. The rest not. Just a guess.5) The rest you can get very excellent Mamiya glass
You cannot use the Schneider tech camera lenses as your basis of expectation, btw., unless you plan to compare the S2 to tech cameras. Those lenses have very different constraints, and are often symmetrical designs, something not possible for more than one focal length with a bayonet mount.
Bravo Phase, the new camera is faster than the old (slow) camera. Let's wait and see how it compares to the S2, shall we?6) New camera much faster
Let's wait and see it get delivered, and work. I am sceptical, beyond the 1/800s, but let's see. I am willing to be pleasantly surprised.7) best flash sync in town - although I personally could not care less for that feature as mainly landscape photographer, but I understand that many are excited about this
Good point #1.5. How many people make use of this is another matter, but for those few people, it is a point.8) most flexible system as backs are easily usable with view cameras
Let's judge by *final* results, shall we? You may be right, but I don't expect Leica to take this one lying down.9) C1Pro - consider this still the best RAW PPSW together with PS CS4 after looking in the latest and greatest LR version and also Phocus
Peter, let's wait and see how it works out when all the products are out. Making dramatic statements at this point is only likely to get one egg on the face. Why do you so often rush to make strong statements when there is no knowledge to back them up in many cases?
Personally, I have high hopes for the S2, even if acquiring one is the subject only of my dreams. Still, I think that if Hasselblad's new focus system works, if the new Phase body is really a major step up, and the Schneider lenses are as good as you hope, and if the S2 is a resounding success, then these three together have the potential to actually *grow* the digital MF market, which would be positive all around. As long as the market is so small, it is in danger of disappearing, which would be an awful shame. I hope for the success of all the above systems, not just the one I would buy if I were thinking of doing so.
I know this is a waste of time, but why is it that it is so often impossible to discuss any camera without the conversation becoming about Leicas? I love Leica cameras, but I'm not waiting eagerly to see whether David's review of the S2 is a positive one. If you like one brand or another, fine, but is it really worthwhile to argue about which of two cameras or lenses is better when you've seen neither?
Well a few points. The Phase 150 and 80 are as good as the best Leica lenses I have ever seen. They hold up perfectly on a P65. I can't say that of a LOT of Leica lenses. R lenses on a 1DsMk3 and even M lenses on the M9. Even the 45 is extremely good. Leica first has to prove that they can actually make lenses outperforming the S2 Sensor. At that point we can start arguing. Until now we have seen NOTHING of them. What we can see is that the current top line of Phase lenses is s good as anything else out there.
Even better now that Leica has the M9 I don't have to care whether the S2 will be a success or not.
A note to Leica. Perhaps this time you should really, after the dump switch from C1 to Lightroom, wait till Adobe has a profile for the S2.
Well said Stephen. I think for current Phase shooters some of these new features are worthy of the upgrade. I see some real advantages with this new body over the III. Also not mentioned in this thread is Yair mentioned the actual release is a shorter throw going down when you press to shoot. I have found this also annoying on previous models so another good plus for the upgrade.
From my seat the 1500 upgrade to the new body is well worth the cost. Besides the ability for the LS lenses which is a biggy, some of these creature comfort features certainly help and for me shutter lag and release is Maybe bigger to me than the leaf shutter. As I have said before shooting a golf swing is a real challenge to hit it at the correct timing and also in the studio shooting people, I always felt a little behind in timing. Also the custom functions on the top deck and easy to switch without looking is a big plus and than the slight grip change for me always bugged me because of my arthritis. Plus on resale you have a new body if you go down that route at some point.
This also puts the DSLR thoughts even further on the back burner for me. Something I have been avoiding since I went MF. So no matter what I do or plan this is money well spent at least for me. may not matter for some folks and I can certainly see why not especially landscape shooters but for a generalist like me that shoots a good variety of stuff than I am all over this.
Time for football
Have to agree with the above -- there seems to be a lot of Leica fan-boyism along with an equal part of Mamiya-discrimination here. Bottom line is just like Christopher and Guy said, my Mamiya 80D, 150D and 75-150D zoom are among the best lenses I have ever used PERIOD, and this includes digital Schneiders, Leica, Zeiss and Canon L!
Hear hear, Jack/Guy. I've used an awful lot of lenses over the last 50 years and we're now getting to the point of estimating how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.
ALL these lenses are generally superb (every barrel has the odd bad apple) and people are now simply stating their preferences (or their biases) and not hard facts about relative performance.
I think you are just saying what I was. I did not mean to imply the Mamiya lenses were "better" than the others, but then this is a thread on the new Mamiya body . IMO there isn't a lot of significant brand to brand differences in modern designs; when lenses are good, they're good, regardless of brand. I do believe that certain legacy lenses render uniquely, but this is often due to aberrations (optical flaws) that happen to create visually pleasing effects.
Mayor omission here!
What about Nikon lenses?
Nikon's 14-24 ,2/200 and 24-70 have no equals in the DSLR arena.
for me the issue has always been about focusing accuracy.
the autofocus on the mamiya has never made me feel secure
I have the magnifier and even that never made me feel very confident.
I was shooting with a hassy 110mm f/2 wide open and a mamiya 80mm f/1.9 and in the end had to rely on constantly checking the laptop at 100% to ensure my focus was right.
you can have the BEST lenses in the world but all that is for naught if the camera body does not give you the confidence of accurate focus.
Also, shutter lag is a horribly important issue, if you shoot people then even a fraction of a second makes a difference in the expression you capture.
I'm sure the phase one people dealt with it...I hope.
Well, it is interesting that my enthusiasm about the next steps we see from Phase and my statements based on my lifetime expertise with some other brands (cameras and lenses) made such big waves here
I knew that David is a big Leica fan, but that Carsten seems to be similar biased is somehow new for me
I did not say that Leica is worse or better or any other camera and lens, especially the S2, but the S2 will have to prove it's acclaimed quality first!
I just said that the concept of Phase and what they are doing obviously for their future lineup appeals VERY MUCH to me. More than Leica S2 and much more than Hasselblad with their H4D.
And this is mainly based on the fact that I am shooting landscapes and want the most flexible and upgradeable path in front of me and my investments. If I were a model shooter or in fashion or in action the story might look different, but for me the Phase system seems to be the best overall compromise for the work I am doing and plan to do in the next future.
And BTW with some promotions as there are currently with Phase in Austria I can get a camera plus P40+ plus 80 for €12500.- and if I add some more €2000.- I can have the new body and the new Schneider 80 (all excluding VAT). This is definitely far below the S2 plus 70 for €23.000.- excluding VAT! And I get a well proven system with Phase, which I cannot with the S2!
BTW I just got the large format fine art prints for my next exhibition here in Austria and they were all made with Phase P45+, P40+ and P65+ on Phase cameras and View cameras, and they are all exceptional in terms of IQ. I really doubt I can add some more quality when shooting the same with the S System - no way, the only thing is I would limit myself to pano and stitching and have NO view camera compatibility
So I think i know what i am talking about WRT my landscape fine art shooting and workflow style - not that you could not do it similar things with Leica S2 or Hasselblad, but definitely not as efficient and future proof and "cheap" as with the gear I involved and for sure not with better IQ. And keep in mind here I had NOT the new Schneider glass as it will become available now and I am putting much hope in these lenses.
Hope that helps clarify and cool down the Leica hype a bit
Last edited by ptomsu; 4th October 2009 at 01:46.
I am a Leica fan, yes, but I am no fanboy. My regard for Leica is based on my experience with R and M lenses, both of which routinely exceed the quality of what is available from the competition, in my experience, and in fact, in the experience of many people here. Sure, there are occasional brilliant lenses from any company, but I have not seen a lens range from *any* company which manages to be so uniformly excellent as the Leica M lens range, and this is not just stopped down, but more difficultly, from wide open.
My expectation is that the Leica S lenses will do the same in MF, but I am always qualifying this with "let's wait and see" comments, to keep perspective. I speak in no blanket generalities here.
Well Carsten it is true that Leica offers a great selection of M and R lenses. Most of them are fantastic. However one point is, you are talking about a lens range. Well the S2 has none at launch. Sure this will happen over time, but it takes time and I don't think we will see a 35 or many more lenses before next year. I am still interested in the S2 System. Could even imagine getting one with just the 30-90 however, first they have to prove the quality. Something my Phase System has done. (a S2 Sytem would and CAN not replace my phase back. Cause I need it on the large format camera, but perhaps my Canon and Phase camera system. On the other hand there is the question, how attractive the S2 will be next year, once Sony, Nikon and Canon get their 28Mp + cameras out. Certainly that is not medium format and lenses are not as good. However you would just pay 6k to 8k and I think especially Nikon has shown, that they can make outstanding lenses.)
Focus accuracy should be a more important priority than the constant struggle to pack more pixels into a given space for all of the manufacturers. It will be interesting to see how well the S2 does in this regard ... being a totally integrated system, it has the potential to be very good, and could well make up for less pixels if the lenses are as good as advertised and the focus is dead on the money.
Well I tend to switch to manual in the studio doing portraits as well since I don't trust AF to begin with on any system. But will agree the current body can be a pain and it does hunt. Now Tim did mention in his thread about 2 settings which sound very good. As you can set the AF to be more accurate or faster. Now as stated by Yair and Tim at this point plus the spec sheet saying the AF is better and faster than what we have today which is all good news. Myself I will most likely switch to accurate because i really am not bothered by the speed today. Even when i do those runway jobs with the 300 on continuous focus i am nailing them pretty well with the movement of the models walking at me so the more accurate setting is hopefully very good. Also Yair said the shutter lag is basically a dead issue now and obviously he has handled these bodies longer than I have actually so that is great indication it is basically a non issue or much improvement in it. So far I have not heard one negative factor of the upgraded body so that is all good news. I'm actually pretty excited about this, it hit all my issues on the upgrade. The one i really hoped for was the Phase battery in the camera so one battery and charger to haul around but obviously now Leaf is part of Phase and they use a different style battery so that would not work for those Leaf users. The vertical grip I think Dave mentioned will take Phase batteries and that maybe a nice option.
One thing that really has not been mentioned for Phase and Leaf shooters and maybe a little off topic but now Leaf will be able to use C1 as there processing and tethered engine this just doubled our amount of backs we can toss on the body. For rentals and such this could proof a very very nice option or when in other cities you need to rent a different back. Leaf has a nice wide format back now that could be useful for certain gigs. Now I need to learn more of there backs and maybe some nice rental options with them. The reality is Phase really expanded their network with the purchase of leaf and maybe that is the silver lining behind the purchase that most of us did not pick up on when that buy out was made. Many people questioned the purchase and I was one of them, maybe we did not see this at first but I see am seeing it better now.
Anyway I own almost 90% of the latest M lenses and while I really love them finally, they had to go back to Solms at least once to be fine adjusted for M-digital (M8). I would not call this such a great experience. My 3 Schneider lenses never had to be fine adjusted as my Hassi V lenses (Zeiss) never had to be. And I see their quality from film and in the resulting large format prints after scanning with a Flextight X5. This quality is still better (or t least equal) to a 40MP back - of course I do not consider how much work effort you have to put into getting clean and stunning files from a scan.
But agree, lets wait and see ....
Just read this I wonder what improvements are on the finder mask. Audible AF confirm. Hmmm more bells going off in my ear. LOL
Other workflow enhancements include new tactile buttons, a fully sealed eye-cup eliminating ambient light, improved viewfinder masks, and customizable audio feedback e.g. on focus lock. Several custom functions have been enhanced, without compromising simple navigation.
Also true, but although this does happen, it is not universal, and at least Leica can adjust them. With some manufacturers you need to buy, try and sell until you get a good copy. Only one Leica M lens in the current lineup is like that: the 35 Lux ASPH.Anyway I own almost 90% of the latest M lenses and while I really love them finally, they had to go back to Solms at least once to be fine adjusted for M-digital (M8).
Anyway, it is already October, and the release of the S2 is at hand: let's wait and see. I am sure the system will be impressive. Perhaps more interesting will be how it compares to the existing MF systems.
IMO Nikon has some work to do. They have some truly great lenses (14-24, 24-70, 200/2, and perhaps the 70-200 II), and then they have a vast range of fairly mediocre lenses. I nearly bought into the Nikon system and then backed out due to this fact. Some refreshes are desperately needed, and the Nikon lenses are not known for their great boke, with the few mentioned exceptions.On the other hand there is the question, how attractive the S2 will be next year, once Sony, Nikon and Canon get their 28Mp + cameras out. Certainly that is not medium format and lenses are not as good. However you would just pay 6k to 8k and I think especially Nikon has shown, that they can make outstanding lenses.)
Sony is on the right track, but also have some work to do. Canon's lens lineup doesn't appeal to me at all, nor do the very digital-looking results, if you are not very careful. I went to see a photo exhibition today, and after perhaps 4-5 shots, I was certain that they were shot with a Canon (which they were). There is something that falls totally apart in the Canon texture when they are printed too large (A1, roughly, or 1m on the long edge). Other cameras degrade more gracefully, IMO (A900, D3x, ...). The lens lineup also doesn't appeal to me, for the most part, although there is more variety than in the Nikon lineup. CA was also clearly in evidence in many shots.
For these reasons, I think that MF doesn't really have anything to fear from 35mm, whether it be the S2 or the Phase backs. The results just act different when printed and enlarged. There is more substance.
Can someone compare (at least theoretically ) 645DF glass vs Contax 645 glass?
I'm mostly interested in 645DF capable lenses as Contax 645 35mm/3.5, 80mm/2, 120mm/4 and 140mm/2.8.
Is AFI/Hy6 has such competitive lens range?
The AFi/Hy6 lenses are very high quality, but you won't find a really wide lens in the range. I believe that 40mm is the widest rectilinear lens. There were plans for something wider, but so far nothing real. They tend to be expensive, but with patience, you can build a nice lens lineup for a good price.
The Contax 645 lenses are generally very good, being relatively modern Zeiss designs. The AF is slow, but accurate. The prices are very fair at this point, or even cheap. The 80mm isn't the sharpest 80 wide open, but then it is quite fast and I like its look. I own the 35/3.5, 80/2, 120/4 Macro and a Hasselblad 110/2 which I use with an adapter. The 35 and 120 are fantastic, and the 110/2 is a great portrait lens.
Someone else will fill in the Mamiya lens details.
Having said that I think the P1 80D might be better (clearer + more contrasty wide open).
The Contax 35 +120macro are outstanding... regarding these focal lengths a platform change doesn't make sense IMO
Some news I read. Which is EXACTLY what I said initially
1/1600 flash sync on the LS lenses will only be available on p40+ and p65+ for the other backs only 1/800
Again my guess is simply because it does not need a wake up cable on these backs but could be more to it as well. Don't know don't care as long as it works.