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BJP article, interesting read

carstenw

Active member
I like the S2 concept, but I still can't image how stupid one must be to order that camera before I even get some real quality images.
If no deposit is required, and no commitment necessary, I don't see the problem with being on a waiting list.

I think the question is, does it make sense to buy a S2 System or any other MFDB ? I still think, it makes only real sense if you print big and need larger files. I have to admit, that after seeing some D3x stuff I'm not so convinced anymore that a S2 or P30 or H31 has ANY advantage than it comes to DR, Noise, Sharpness. I really think the question is what will happen once you can buy a 30Mp system for 8k in a DSLR. Oh and yes there are even a lot of DSLR lenses which outperform the current 24. (certainly not the whole range and just a small fraction of all lenses, but than again, the MFDB selection isn't that great either.)
The Leica M9 has for me what the D3x has for you. I am wondering if I still need my Sinar back after that, but I will test them against each other before deciding. I am quite happy using my Contax just for B&W film, if the M9 delivers.

Christopher, you forgot to mention which Scotch you are drinking ;)
 

Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
Hmmm... A shot of single malt sounds very good right now. Excuse me whilst I go peruse the liquor cabinet...

Hmmmph. Good ones vanished, must remember to lock away when mother-in-law visits. So for this evening, its the few fingers of Ardbeg remaining in the bottle...
 

Christopher

Active member
Well there is nothing wrong with being on a waiting list. I meant more people how probably will slam down the money on the first day the thing ships. I have the fear that even than we won't have seen any raw file from a S2. Just some jpgs. While I love the M9, I am again quite pissed in how Leica handles the whole Cyan problem. It just shows again, that there are some real problems with Leica especially when it comes to the software site.

Oh and yes here in New Zealand right now, with 10 degrees and rain the last two days I could use any type of liquor ;-)
 

Rethmeier

New member
Chris,the REDS are excellent in New Zealand,some people say even better than the AUSSIE REDS!
How are things anyway?
I enjoyed your company here in Sydney,
Cheers,
Willem.
 

PeterA

Well-known member
The S2 isnt going to be perfect. The question is - will it be less less perfect than other not perfect systems -:)

Questions:

My main concern is the 'odd' format and the fact that the lens image circle is designed accordingly - will this be a medium to long term limitation? Then again - smaller and smaller pixels with better and better light catching is not my preference for MFD - 40 megapixels is all I need. therefore low interest in 50/60 + megapixels on my part.

A secondary concern I have is the DNG format. being a user of three different RAW programms - I see teh significant benefits that DAC and other processing delivers to Hasselblad files. I see much better M8 files from C1Pro and I see awesome files from Exposure ( albeit clunky software )

Can Leica get the best possible IQ from a DNG file - out of lightroom? Will ther ebe Leica S2 and M9 specific Lightroom 'tweaks' - that elevate teh raw processing IQ to standards above?

Positives:

Ergonomics
Lens quality
Processing speed


Leica pulle done rabbi tout of the hat - can they follow up with an even beter surprise in teh S2?

I am looking forwar dto the answer to this quesiton - if it is positive -I will buy an M9 and an S2 system.

Pete ( btw I dont drink alcohol)
 

carstenw

Active member
All raw file formats are just storage containers for data of various types, such as the raw RGB data, EXIF, and so on, as well as private notes from the camera. The DNG format is no different in this regard, and whatever a manufacturer wants to write into it, it can store. I don't know why Hasselblad hasn't developed their DNG support to the same level. I suppose it is a question of development time and cost.

With the M9, the corrections are limited to cyan and vignetting correction, but this is necessary only because the M lenses often come very close to the sensor and project the light at dramatic angles. The S2 shouldn't need anything like the amount of cyan correction, being a new system with a very large diameter bayonet, but I can imagine Leica correcting the vignetting.

Hasselblad uses the DAC corrections slightly differently, in that they chose a middle road, with known aberrations uncorrected, store the relevant data, and then correct in post, for example barrel distortion in the 28mm. They analyzed the market and determined it to be more cost effective this way. Leica has made a statement that they will not be doing this type of corrections in software, but rather in the optical designs. This of course brings up the cost. Both are valid approaches.

I don't personally see Leica's challenges lying in the optical design or corrections. Leica is perhaps the world's leader in these areas. I think Leica's main technical challenge will be to build a compelling and effective software pipeline with Lightroom. I primarily use Lightroom, but still need to jump to C1 for some shots. I find that the white balance, noise reduction and colours are just better in C1. Leica has to make do with Lightroom for the S2.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
All raw file formats are just storage containers for data of various types, such as the raw RGB data, EXIF, and so on, as well as private notes from the camera. The DNG format is no different in this regard, and whatever a manufacturer wants to write into it, it can store. I don't know why Hasselblad hasn't developed their DNG support to the same level. I suppose it is a question of development time and cost.




Actually there is a lot of politics involved here among the companies to go DNG because it is heavily supported by Adobe products and the control they can put on the DNG even though it is supposed to be a open platform some companies do not see it that way. Plus they may have secrets built into there Raw that they don't want others to know about. I don't know much about this but when it was introduced several years ago it was a war about it.

Leica does put corrections in there files the DMR, M8 and M9 they have processing going on before the Raw output for various conditions. Personally there is no doubt in my mind the same for the S2 but no one will admit it and the marketing says they don't need too. This one I really have my doubts about that claim. Just vignetting alone is a obvious one. Like I said many times to build a lens like a 24mm there has to be some barrel correction simply just going by history all of them have some distortion and to build without it is extremely expensive. Now what truly are we paying 7k for a lens for just because it may have that built in when a Hassy or Phase lens cost 4 k and we fix it ourselves to our taste which actually most Hassy and Phase shooters most likely prefer to do themselves anyway or automatically done when it hits the software. To me this begs the question what makes the most sense to you as a shooter and to your pocket.
But I still never seen a lens without some barrel distortion so here is the area I am skeptical and it is very vague answers about it if any except Leica marketing says there are optically perfect and don't need it , well show me for one and two is it worth almost twice the price for it. Other factors obviously

Sorry i am having a hard time buying someones claims on this one. These hidden questions are not truly answered and maybe never get a answer to it either.
Right now this is a ghost until it is hands of REAL users and we can figure things out. These are engineering and marketing answers that have to be seen from the end user . Right now all of this is meaningless since it is not released yet and frankly I don't buy any marketing I buy tools to get a job done and that is what makes me buy. Not saying Leica is doing anything wrong here but until it's in the streets than certain questions will be answered in many area's and until than just not paying attention to the sales pitches and the waving banners. Personally I want it in my hands to see if it will work to the expectations that are expected from it. I know it will be a good product and have no doubts about that but how good and how it works in the field are unanswered at this time. This is too be expected until it is out and out in the hands of MF shooters today. This will be a wet dream answer to any 35mm shooter that never seen , worked with or dealt with MF. So on the surface the best thing you can buy until you get it in the hands of MF shooters that know exactly what it should look like and be like. Seriously this is what leica should be doing is getting it in the hands of MF shooters for real appraisals on it's product and what they currently are shooting to give the best expectations to buyers on it. If this is aimed at Pro shooters than you need Pros testing it that deal in these files everyday.
 
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