The GetDPI Photography Forum
Great to see you here. Join our insightful photographic forum today and start tapping into a huge wealth of photographic knowledge. Completing our simple registration process will allow you to gain access to exclusive content, add your own topics and posts, share your work and connect with other members through your own private inbox! And don’t forget to say hi!
BJP article, interesting read
- Thread starter routlaw
- Start date
Guy Mancuso
Administrator, Instructor
Have a link Rob
stephengilbert
Active member
Guy, It's never too early to close a thread. 
Steve
Steve
Graham Mitchell
New member
Those comments read like a bad joke. Really, was that the best they could come up with?
Guy Mancuso
Administrator, Instructor
I should just end it here to be honest. Bottom line who gives a rats arch. Buy gear, go shoot, make prints , collect check. End of story
Have tech issues or questions let's discuss. Better yet let's see some images
I should add but if you folks want to discuss marketing, sales tactics, system failures for end users, what employee had lunch with another employee and slept together afterwards go right ahead but it has nothing to do with putting a image on a piece of media so I personally have no interest. Myself I am interested in photography the art of it and the technical ways to get images and figure out how to overcome the limitations of any system to get it to work for the end user. Bottom line I like to have fun that stuff for me is not fun but BS politics. I have enough of that already in this country and ignore 90 percent of it. But that's me. I'm going to go spend more money. NOW that is fun
Have tech issues or questions let's discuss. Better yet let's see some images
I should add but if you folks want to discuss marketing, sales tactics, system failures for end users, what employee had lunch with another employee and slept together afterwards go right ahead but it has nothing to do with putting a image on a piece of media so I personally have no interest. Myself I am interested in photography the art of it and the technical ways to get images and figure out how to overcome the limitations of any system to get it to work for the end user. Bottom line I like to have fun that stuff for me is not fun but BS politics. I have enough of that already in this country and ignore 90 percent of it. But that's me. I'm going to go spend more money. NOW that is fun
All the BS banter aside....has anybody actually used a production S2 yet and able to share some images, or is there yet another NDA/embargo until the camera actually goes on sale later this month? (That "?" applies to both the bigger question, as well as wondering if Leica is going to slip the delivery date.)
Seriously, aside from the small images on the Leica site and the very few postings from a pre-production camera, am I the only one that is really wondering about the S2 at this point?
LJ
Seriously, aside from the small images on the Leica site and the very few postings from a pre-production camera, am I the only one that is really wondering about the S2 at this point?
LJ
Bottom line is that until we have S2 files in the hands of real, everyday shooters, accurate comparisons are impossible. However that said, I do think the point about obsolescence of the fixed digital engine aspect of the S2 is a credible concern for at least SOME shooters. OTOH, S lenses should remain usable well into the foreseeable future S bodies and that may be all other shooters want require ...
PS: Am I the only one who wonders what happened to the S1???
,
...PS: Am I the only one who wonders what happened to the S1???
,That is kind of my point, Jack.....why are there no images available anywhere yet? I realize that the official sale date is still a few weeks away, but they have to have the software and stuff locked down by now, and there should be a few folks shooting the production version at this point. Heck, even the M9 shipped without a final final production version, and there were some images spread around. The S2, on the other hand, keeps getting hyped and trashed, yet there is nothing to really judge its performance and capability at this point....either way. Even the sales guy (David Farkas) has yet to post anything more than one single heavily worked image and still has not gotten his "review" posted that he said would be up over a month ago. What is the deal? Anybody know anything with some value at this point?
LJ
LJ
LJ,
I do not have any inside knowledge at all, but do have some experience in product marketing --- so here is just a guess: First, this is a new concept, and Leica is breaking new ground from a form-factor and usability standpoint. I further suspect they want to be absolutely certain this camera hits a grand-slam when it's released. As such, any nits found during whatever their beta test program was, regardless of how minor, Leica are likely going to want resolved before the S2 hit's the streets; I'd suspect the last thing Leica wants to have happen is another performance issue similar to the IR leak on the M8, or deal with what Canon had to on replacing bad AF sensors with its last batch of 1 series cameras. With any new product there are bound to be glitches for sure, and glitches that can be dealt with in firmware are one thing, while mechanical glitches are another...
I do not have any inside knowledge at all, but do have some experience in product marketing --- so here is just a guess: First, this is a new concept, and Leica is breaking new ground from a form-factor and usability standpoint. I further suspect they want to be absolutely certain this camera hits a grand-slam when it's released. As such, any nits found during whatever their beta test program was, regardless of how minor, Leica are likely going to want resolved before the S2 hit's the streets; I'd suspect the last thing Leica wants to have happen is another performance issue similar to the IR leak on the M8, or deal with what Canon had to on replacing bad AF sensors with its last batch of 1 series cameras. With any new product there are bound to be glitches for sure, and glitches that can be dealt with in firmware are one thing, while mechanical glitches are another...
Dale Allyn
New member
There are lots of risks associated with big hype in advance of any product release. Spinning expectations to the moon can put a lot of pressure on a company when it comes time to deliver. Personally, I'd prefer a soft rollout and a more subtle approach. Kind of a "Here's something we're working on. We're excited about and hope you like it too. It's not finished, but what do think so far?..." approach.
Or just announce and deliver (more Apple style). Now, if the S2 is simply "very good" and not "freaking amazing on every count" some people will be dishing it, etc.
Personally, I agree with Guy's remarks, "buy gear, make images, have fun...".
Or just announce and deliver (more Apple style). Now, if the S2 is simply "very good" and not "freaking amazing on every count" some people will be dishing it, etc.
Personally, I agree with Guy's remarks, "buy gear, make images, have fun...".
Jack and Dale,
Fully understand and appreciate your perspectives and comments. What just seems amazing at this point is that Leica has been chatting about the S2 for quite some time. They have rolled out prototypes for folks to look at and "test" a bit at numerous locations worldwide. They created a junket for a few select reviewers to play with it, and start some marketing buzz. They have even redone their own Web site with a section devoted to just the S2, presenting more marketing hype, etc. At this point, planned delivery date minus 14 days or so, they have yet to release anything really tangible or substantive on a product that they are claiming will be revolutionary in the pro market.
Sorry, I guess I am just a bit more than frustrated at all the smoke and mirrors with no real fire to be found beneath at this point. Personally, I think they are way past any real roll-out strategy at this point. Instead they are now engaging in interview banter to defend a product that everybody has heard about for over a year, lots of folks have seen or demoed at events for just as long, have released specs and prices for several weeks/months ago, but have yet to put any decent images into the mix for potential buyers to make their own decisions about, sans hype and sales pitch. Not promising or encouraging at this point.
Jack, I fully appreciate your points about their needing to get the delivery as perfect as they can, but they should have put more time and effort, plus more cameras into the hands of some testers so that they could iron out any bugs and prevent another potential fiasco. Maybe they really have, and it is the embargo that holds things in check, but why the junket for Reichmann et al.? This all seems so bass-ackwards for such a major new camera system.
Last comment from the BJP article.....how amazingly arrogant for Leica to now say they are just going to let the S2 define its own use and buyers, and not feel the need to compete/compare with others that are talking trash about them at this point. They started the trash talk when they announced the S2 and claims to revolutionize the MF market. The first shot in the foot for them was the issue over "competitive pricing" and then dropping bombs with prices and delivery dates. Seriously, I can see how they are now very defensive over comments from Hassy and others, but they brought that upon themselves. If they would just let the camera and images from real photographers do the talking for them, a lot of this could have been avoided.
O.K., I will go back to shooting real stuff with my real and older gear, make some money and just tune back in several months from now to see if things have changed.
LJ
Fully understand and appreciate your perspectives and comments. What just seems amazing at this point is that Leica has been chatting about the S2 for quite some time. They have rolled out prototypes for folks to look at and "test" a bit at numerous locations worldwide. They created a junket for a few select reviewers to play with it, and start some marketing buzz. They have even redone their own Web site with a section devoted to just the S2, presenting more marketing hype, etc. At this point, planned delivery date minus 14 days or so, they have yet to release anything really tangible or substantive on a product that they are claiming will be revolutionary in the pro market.
Sorry, I guess I am just a bit more than frustrated at all the smoke and mirrors with no real fire to be found beneath at this point. Personally, I think they are way past any real roll-out strategy at this point. Instead they are now engaging in interview banter to defend a product that everybody has heard about for over a year, lots of folks have seen or demoed at events for just as long, have released specs and prices for several weeks/months ago, but have yet to put any decent images into the mix for potential buyers to make their own decisions about, sans hype and sales pitch. Not promising or encouraging at this point.
Jack, I fully appreciate your points about their needing to get the delivery as perfect as they can, but they should have put more time and effort, plus more cameras into the hands of some testers so that they could iron out any bugs and prevent another potential fiasco. Maybe they really have, and it is the embargo that holds things in check, but why the junket for Reichmann et al.? This all seems so bass-ackwards for such a major new camera system.
Last comment from the BJP article.....how amazingly arrogant for Leica to now say they are just going to let the S2 define its own use and buyers, and not feel the need to compete/compare with others that are talking trash about them at this point. They started the trash talk when they announced the S2 and claims to revolutionize the MF market. The first shot in the foot for them was the issue over "competitive pricing" and then dropping bombs with prices and delivery dates. Seriously, I can see how they are now very defensive over comments from Hassy and others, but they brought that upon themselves. If they would just let the camera and images from real photographers do the talking for them, a lot of this could have been avoided.
O.K., I will go back to shooting real stuff with my real and older gear, make some money and just tune back in several months from now to see if things have changed.
LJ
LJ,
The review is done. I'm waiting on the go-ahead from Leica to publish my images online. Part of the deal was that my images had to be signed off on by Leica QA in Germany. Currently, they are just a bit busy finalizing the S2 for global release. So, while I would have like to have had my full review online already, I would prefer to do so with all the pictures. Seriously, 8,000 words with no pictures wouldn't be very fun to read. So, I'm being patient.
And, no, there is nothing to hide. The files look amazing. In fact, if anyone wants to see the full files I have no problem showing them on a one-on-one basis (neither does Leica). I'm just not allowed to publish or distribute them electronically yet.
I've shown the files to several people, many on this forum. If you are in my area (Ft. Lauderdale/Miami) you can drop by anytime. I will also be in NYC from Oct 21-25 for Photo Plus and have already made some appointments there. If anyone is interested in handling a production S2 and seeing real files at full res in DNG, I encourage you to contact me so we can meet.
David
Thanks for the response, David. Understand what you are saying about releasing stuff, but that is part of the Leica problem, from what I see now. You shot stuff in August with pre-production firmware, cameras, and lenses. Great to hear things look wonderful. Still cannot understand why that stuff cannot be shared more broadly at this point, but hey, I learned long ago to not try to understand things for or from Leica ;-) (Think about it.....pre-production stuff being held back until sales actually start with a production camera/software that may deliver something different. Makes a lot of sense....not.)
Unfortunately (or maybe more fortunately for me), I will not be in New York or Florida to see things one-on-one. I am shooting here in Houston, and that comes first. I will just pour myself another BenRiach single malt, work in some more shooting with ancient Canons, and wait for something substantive to come out to look at later.
LJ
Unfortunately (or maybe more fortunately for me), I will not be in New York or Florida to see things one-on-one. I am shooting here in Houston, and that comes first. I will just pour myself another BenRiach single malt, work in some more shooting with ancient Canons, and wait for something substantive to come out to look at later.
LJ
Dale Allyn
New member
The danger in Lieca's approach here is that it raises suspicions that there are issues with the S2. And that can lead to market concerns/resistance as potential buyers decide against being "paying-beta-testers". I doubt it has much affect on the wealthy who might buy it as jewelry, but that's a risky business model.
I remain open-minded, and hope for the best for Leica and the S2, but will say that the marketing approach leaves me a bit cautious in my expectations. Stuff happens, deadlines are missed, PR nightmares occur, but how a company handles such events can make or break a product's chances for success.
I guess we will see...
I remain open-minded, and hope for the best for Leica and the S2, but will say that the marketing approach leaves me a bit cautious in my expectations. Stuff happens, deadlines are missed, PR nightmares occur, but how a company handles such events can make or break a product's chances for success.
I guess we will see...
carstenw
Active member
Personally, I found Leica's response appropriate. They are refusing to join the mudslinging that the other CEOs have started, and are saying that they believe in the camera, and trust it to win people over based on its technical merits, rather than CEO comments.
All that remains is the release of the camera so people can judge it for itself. If the camera is not out by the end of the month, I will start getting skeptical, but if it is, they have held their end of the bargain. I have seen some results on an engineer's computer, and believe that they have nothing to hide.
Anyway, I have cracked open my Distiller's Edition Lagavulin, and will start processing my images from this afternoon.
All that remains is the release of the camera so people can judge it for itself. If the camera is not out by the end of the month, I will start getting skeptical, but if it is, they have held their end of the bargain. I have seen some results on an engineer's computer, and believe that they have nothing to hide.
Anyway, I have cracked open my Distiller's Edition Lagavulin, and will start processing my images from this afternoon.
remember leica has had the advantage of comparing what the s2 can do as compared to other mfdb that are out in the market..I have seen the dng's and they are impressive, I have not seen them in comparison to others. I think we were all a bit surprised and I was again impressed with the launch of the m9 and x1 last month, they certainly have not been sitting on their hands in solms. From what I saw of the s2 raws they still had some tweaking of the software to finalize. I will check out the production model next week here in ny and post something if possible..if the laphroiag will see me through.
Christopher
Active member
Well most camera companies don't get it. Why is it so hard to give a camera 1-2 weeks before it ships to some good photographers in different fields and than provide a nice over view of work on a website. WITH RAW Images. I know that some will worry about (c) and stuff, but there are certainly enough willing to shoot a new camera for some none client stuff and show what the camera is capable off. I like the S2 concept, but I still can't image how stupid one must be to order that camera before I even get some real quality images.
I think the question is, does it make sense to buy a S2 System or any other MFDB ? I still think, it makes only real sense if you print big and need larger files. I have to admit, that after seeing some D3x stuff I'm not so convinced anymore that a S2 or P30 or H31 has ANY advantage than it comes to DR, Noise, Sharpness. I really think the question is what will happen once you can buy a 30Mp system for 8k in a DSLR. Oh and yes there are even a lot of DSLR lenses which outperform the current 24. (certainly not the whole range and just a small fraction of all lenses, but than again, the MFDB selection isn't that great either.)
I think the question is, does it make sense to buy a S2 System or any other MFDB ? I still think, it makes only real sense if you print big and need larger files. I have to admit, that after seeing some D3x stuff I'm not so convinced anymore that a S2 or P30 or H31 has ANY advantage than it comes to DR, Noise, Sharpness. I really think the question is what will happen once you can buy a 30Mp system for 8k in a DSLR. Oh and yes there are even a lot of DSLR lenses which outperform the current 24. (certainly not the whole range and just a small fraction of all lenses, but than again, the MFDB selection isn't that great either.)
I am with you on this thinking, Dale. :thumbup:The danger in Lieca's approach here is that it raises suspicions that there are issues with the S2. And that can lead to market concerns/resistance as potential buyers decide against being "paying-beta-testers". I doubt it has much affect on the wealthy who might buy it as jewelry, but that's a risky business model.
I remain open-minded, and hope for the best for Leica and the S2, but will say that the marketing approach leaves me a bit cautious in my expectations. Stuff happens, deadlines are missed, PR nightmares occur, but how a company handles such events can make or break a product's chances for success.
I guess we will see...
LJ