An S2 strategy: your thoughts?

[PeterA]

I will be buying an S2 in due course. It looks sexy.

 

[Shelby Lewis]

... It looks sexy.

just what the male black-widow spider said just before meeting his lady for "dinner".

be afraid.... very afraid....

 

[Mark Gowin]

Well, a most interesting discussion so far.

Definitely an interesting discussion. Clearly, you are approaching the S2 option as you should - open minded and considered.

My take is that Leica may have a tough row to hoe.

In my opinion, Leica has made their row to hoe due to their pricing of the S2. If Leica could have come to market with the S2 at lower price, then the equation would change dramatically and the row would be much easier to hoe. In fact, people would be lined up at the row. :deadhorse:

Mark

 

[fotografz]

Definitely an interesting discussion. Clearly, you are approaching the S2 option as you should - open minded and considered.



In my opinion, Leica has made their row to hoe due to their pricing of the S2. If Leica could have come to market with the S2 at lower price, then the equation would change dramatically and the row would be much easier to hoe. In fact, people would be lined up at the row. :deadhorse:

Mark

Yep, that's for sure.

Marc

 

[carstenw]

The price of Leica items is always "too" high. Manufacturing in Germany with top-notch materials is very expensive, and the aspherical technology is even more expensive. I guess they do what they have to do to stay in business. Cutting the price to sell more only works if the new price still has a profit margin worth speaking of, and I have a hunch that this would not be the case here, especially at the kinds of prices people throw around, like $10000.

 

[fotografz]

Okay, this now has the potential of getting a little snarky ... and personal in a thinly veiled way.

So, thanks to all for the great discussion, and it's clear that the best action to take is ... none.

December 31st is the deadline for the Hassey H4D/60 upgrade program ... so I have until then to mull it all over.

Even then, the best policy may be to wait and see.

Thanks all,

Marc

 

[kipling]

Waiting a year makes a lot of sense.
Not only will the cat be out of the bag, by which I mean you'll be able to see the damn thing, hold it, test it, read about it being tested and all of that.
But have you ever thought about what might happen if the dollar actually gets stronger in the next 12 months? I have no clue what the prospects of the dollar are, but just getting nearer to the euro would save you a couple grand.

Just a different thought...

 

[Louvre]

The best action is to wait for Leica not only to prove they have come up with a great camera but to read the first reports about service for this new camera.

Pro quality service meaning fast and efficient is a whole new ball game for Leica.
Lets see first if they are able to meet the expectations of professional users in terms of turn around times and gear to lend during the time the S2 camera and lenses are being serviced.

Right now Hasselblad V series is going through a phase where Zeiss no longer offers spares or service for V series lenses.
Parts and service are the exclusive domain of Hasselblad Sweden.
Apparently HB USA is not fully aware of this regarding the way they handled lenses returned to them with problems.

 

[ptomsu]

Definitely waiting for another year or even two is a good strategy. This will not only show the quality of the camera and lenses, but also SW and support and future of the S System.

Wonder really what their next shot will be after the S2 :grin:

 

[dougpeterson]

One issue: how in the heck can I make this decision without having a real taste of how the S2 actually works? Can it function in the conditions I shoot in? How fast is it really? What is the 400 and 800 ISO really like?

Any other maker can get one of their products into a pro's hands for evaluation ... Like Hassey did, like Leaf did ... but as far as I can see the S2 has to be purchased like a "pig in a poke", or I'd have to travel somewhere to even lay hands on one. :banghead:

You can't and shouldn't. If you can't afford the time/money to evaluate an S2 either by rental/loan (if we carry the S2 we will have them in rental/loan and will ship it within the US - others will have them in rental in other world regions) or by traveling to a dealer (we'd welcome you in Miami or Atlanta - surely David would welcome you in Ft. Lauderdale) then you shouldn't get an S2.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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[Jack]

Definitely waiting for another year or even two is a good strategy. This will not only show the quality of the camera and lenses, but also SW and support and future of the S System.

Wonder really what their next shot will be after the S2 :grin:

I agree with you Peter and suspect most potential buyers also agree. Which creates a *HUGE* problem for Leica: they need early adopters of the S2 and a lot of them, or there will never be any S3.

This gets back to their marketing and pricing strategy. Personally, I think they'd be well served to make sure the S2 got into as many professional hands as possible, even if it means LOSING some money in the process, because I suspect they'll lose the entire R&D investment if they don't do that...

Cheers,

 

[LJL]

Jack,
This gets back to exactly what was discussed when the S2 was first being announced and thoughts of how it would fit into the market, especially after the prices were announced. The entire discussion over should they make a little or no profit on a lot of cameras initially (hopefully allowing some or more pros to actually work with the camera to prove its mettle), or sell lower volume at much higher prices to more quickly recover R&D costs, etc. Problem with the second strategy is that the higher pricing means the S2 will more like land in the hands of more wealthy buyers and hobbyists, and few outside will see the results or hear about the issues. We now know what strategy Leica has taken at this point, and it will just take a whole lot longer for more extensive use by folks that will report and show results. That could mean that the S2 will get bypassed by the exact target group that Leica said they built the camera to serve. Should that happen, there will probably not be a lot of enthusiasm for continued development and any S3. Leica pushing for the shorter-term return on its investment could undermine the future for them. Just my thoughts, and echoing your comments.

LJ

P.S. I should add, just to temper more rampant speculation and discussions over parts of the strategy for Leica, that yes, they have a more limited production and service capacity, and that could work against turning out a volume of the S2 at a lower entry price point, which could also be problematic. That being said, that does not seem to have suppressed demand from other manufacturers with their new offerings. If they sold out every S2 on day one it is offered and had to crank hard on production going forward, that would not be a bad thing if users actually marketed the camera for them.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Pick 25 working Pro's give them a system for 6 months for free to work with and report there findings in public and if it is all the paper says it will be than it will sell like hot cakes. With a completely NEW system in the market it is the smartest strategy to get it off the ground . Make that 24 I'm first . LOL

 

[gogopix]

Guy,
Spot on. The pricing from Leica can only be offset by desireability, and that will come if the S2 has something that no other camer has, and you want that one thing.
and the PROs can validate that one thing

My candidate is the sealing; as far as I know there is NO competitor-you want a sealed MF system, you buy the S2
now, IQ (better than P65+ I would wonder but same as P45+ plus, probably)
a few others;
people want Leica glass look- QED, only S2 at MF
AF Leica glass-S2
Smaller than MF, more like DSLR-S2, again (well, ok, the cOntax 645 too LOL)
I am sure others can think of more

All the comparisons to me are weak. The only real questions are
for a pro-is the ROI there
for a serious amateur-I am willing to give up something else
for the well off-hell that's the starter market anyway :ROTFL:

Regards
Victor

 

[dougpeterson]

David Farkas did the shots. I think he used C1 for the P65+ and Lightroom with no profile for the S2! They were not identical shots. The P65+ was shot on a tripod, all the S2 shots were handheld. I don't know what cam/lens was used for the P65+. David said that the P65+ shot was one of Phase's "reference" shots for great image quality. You could see the shadows blocking-up and the foliage getting a little smeared in the P65+ shot and a similar shot on the S2 was crystal clear - both shots were outdoors in similar lighting with similar field of view and subject distances. I know there are a lot of variables, but I think David's pretty good at both systems.

Can't wait to learn more in OR

...blocked up shadows on a P65+?

Can't wait for you to shoot with a P65+ with Schneider large format non-retrofocus glass and do a two panel static-lens stitch... easy as pie and a 100 megapixel image sharp from corner to corner. Oregon is right around the corner!

Believe what you create. See below if you want to see my specific (extremely adamant) objections to the above.

Brad,

Actually, the P65+ shot I showed you was a sample from Capture Integration's website, shot in the alley behind their store in Atlanta with a Cambo RS and Schneider Digitar lens, on a tripod. The file is available here for download: http://www.captureintegration.com/download/P65_plus_10fall.zip. I consider CI to be a trustworthy and competent source for P1 shooting and processing.

Thanks for the kudos but let's play fair. How about you link to the test itself which includes the raw files. PLEASE everyone look at the raw files. Make your own judgments.

http://www.captureintegration.com/tests/phase-one/

@CI ((OUCH, how can you upload such a file from a P65+ ? IT hurts to see it. Sorry but it really looks bad. I mean it looks worse than a lot of Canon shots.)) Ok just saw that there is not only the JPG David linked but a raw file. That is fine than.
@ David No wonder the S2 looked better. I mean if that was the results I am getting from my P65 I would have thrown it out of the window a long time ago ;-)

LOL. Christopher: you're completely right. We took that test to show a customer the relative sensor sizes (ergo the wide angle coverage) of the 65+/45+/40+ which was the most important part of the decision for him. The JPGs were garbage as we used default noise reduction settings. I've taken down the JPGs and will at some point reprocess/repost them as time allows, but in the meanwhile of course we provided the raw files.

Note the following:
- That alley is a scene of absolutely absurd dynamic range. From white paint in direct sunlight to dark subject matter in deeply closed shadow.
- Per the above the exposure is to guard against the highlights in the corner and is 1.5 stops under exposed for the main subject matter
- It was shot at ISO100 rather than ISO 50 to compare directly to the P30+ (the base ISO of which is 100)
- It was shot with a firmware version two generations earlier than today's firmware
- It's shot with 10mm of rise
- Since you were comparing scenes on the monitor you were likely comparing quality at 100% for each image rather than an equal area of coverage. Remember that the 65+ sensor has 50% higher resolution, but that advantage is moot if you're comparing at 100% pixels on each image instead of... and I know this is a crazy thought... printing the images at the same size.
- poor noise reduction or sharpening settings (the default noise reduction setting in C1 is unfortunately very high for this sort of subject matter) can easily obscure quality at the pixel level.
- the earliest versions of C1 which supported the 65+ files do not render them as beautifully as recent versions. The JPGs David linked to were processed (with default noise reduction settings) with the very first version which supported the 65+. Since this was an entirely new sensor technology (modern DALSA sensors with Sensor+ technology) it took a month or two after release to really get the processing singing and modest improvements continue to be made since the engineers who make the back and program the back's firmware also program the software algorithms.

Or to quote a P65+ owner...

Ok stop here right now. The P65+ certainly does not block up shadows earlier than any other back I have seen. Nor do I believe that the S2 is better.

"You could see the shadows blocking-up and the foliage getting a little smeared in the P65+ shot and a similar shot on the S2 was crystal clear"

Sorry but that sounds like wrong processing. I can't say for sure, but is sounds, like the default Noise Removal was on. Which in C1 I think is still the BIGGEST mistake you can make. If you do that you can get better results with every camera in Lightroom ^^

...

So now let's get back to the S2. I love how it feels and shoots. I can't say anything about it's image quality, however I can say, that it won't and CAN'T replace a P65 + LF system. So it can't replace that. So now what ? Could it replace my Canon System ? I fear not. As much as i hope for it, I fear that ISO 800 is the limit. Which just gives me one more stop than my Phase System.

Capture Integration continues to consider becoming an S2 dealer and so we are VERY excited to see a production/shipping S2 so we can do real comparisons and see if the product we would be selling lives up to the pre-production marketing. We want to SEE.

These sorts of comparisons don't do anything to serve the community.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Leaf, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 *| *Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up
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[Mark Gowin]

Price is only one part of the equation for the S2 purchase decision. The price is what it is and each of us has to determine for ourselves how it affects the purchase decision. The point of my earlier post was not too bash Leica for their pricing (e.g., it's not their fault the US dollar is low).

I put my name on the S2 list with my Leica dealer very early on - well before prices were announced. I did not withdraw my name from the list after prices were announced. I will wait until production cameras are available and I can get some actual shooting time with the camera before I make a final purchase decision. It should be noted that the price didn't scare me off the S2. I still think it has its merits and probably will be relatively competitively priced when all factors "important to me" are factored in. For me, things like weather sealing, form factor, and ergonomics are worth paying for.

Mark

 

[yaya]

I have to agree with Al after seeing David F's images in Seattle. We looked at hundreds of S2 images and some P65+ images shot under ideal circumstances and I have to say that I have never in my life seen better digital files than I saw from the S2. It was head and shoulders above the P65+ in detail and clarity. I felt as if I was looking at 4x5 drum scans. I can't stand up for Leica's pricing, or the pricing of any MF digital for that matter unless you can recover the cost in a few assignments, but if you need absolutely the best image quality for very large prints, I don't know of any better system at any price than the S2. Period.

I can see this thread heading Left (or is it Right?) and I'm sure Marc will excuse us all, but I find the statement above somewhat questionable...are any of the mentioned files from both systems available anywhere in their raw format?

I have some experience with the P65+ and lots of experience with the AFi-II 10 and Aptus-II 10, which use a similar (Dalsa) sensor design and I find it hard to believe that a Kodak sensor equipped camera can come close or match these in terms of image quality at base iso.

 

[LJL]

Yair,
From what has been said here and in other threads, the RAW files from the P65+ are available from Doug per his above note. The RAW files from a pre-production S2 are not generally available until the embargo is lifted, but David Farkas has offered folks to view them from his set-up only, no online postings to test drive yourself. So, we will just have to wait a bit longer to start any true side-by-side comparisons to support or refute any claims.

LJ

 

[carstenw]

Price is only one part of the equation for the S2 purchase decision. The price is what it is and each of us has to determine for ourselves how it affects the purchase decision. The point of my earlier post was not too bash Leica for their pricing (e.g., it's not their fault the US dollar is low).

Sorry if my earlier post came across snappy. I am a bit sensitized to people complaining that the S2 should cost much less, without taking into account the cost of "Made in Germany" from top-notch materials, compared to those made in cheaper countries, at much higher volumes, and from less expensive materials. Specifically, I find it hard to contain myself when people claim that the S2 *should* cost around $10000, barely more than a 1Ds3/D3x.

 

[Mark Gowin]

Carsten, I did not take your post as being snappy. In fact, I agree with what you said in your post. I kinda wished I hadn't brought up price again, but felt it appropriate because it is major factor in any purchase decision and the genesis of this thread is consideration whether to purchase an S2.

Mark