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Leica delays S2 shipments until late December

gogopix

Subscriber
What is an "Leica people"? I have shot Leica for 15+ years but certainly don't want to ever consider myself a "Leica people".
Well, I guess its just a feeling. I'm sort of a Leica/Zeiss camera person, Mercedes car person.

It's maybe as simple as brand layalty-it says, all the details aside ("be approximately rigtht, not precesely wrong..") that I have had better decisions, and happier experience when I stay with products (usually long term, like over 100 yeaqrs!) that have served me well.

As guy mentioned, isn't the parts that are the same but the ones that are different - like the lenses from Leica/Zeiss being best look (for ME!)

Nothing mystical, more statistical, mostly just 'feel good when I do it"

regards
Victor

PS And yes I DO consider myself a 'Leica" person,. In spite of that I have S-K, Alpa and Zeiss lenses as well- and like them all. But I have collected over 30 Leica!:angel:
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
It's a shame this was due first week of October and being pushed out first makes no sense and anyone waiting to buy just puts there time table out further. For me I will proceed with any buy decision I was already thinking about given the money but seriously this puts the S2 out till late spring as a purchase until everything is worked out and such. It is what it is still a ghost but many folks will wait and i guess that is Leica's hope. Maybe more time for me to get to test it out as well. Which I still very much would like to do but again Leica will have to watch there back door on the competition as well with new stuff from them. Interesting times ahead
 

LJL

New member
I was a bit dismayed when this announcement was made. Aside from wanting to start seeing what the S2 can do, it raised a couple of points in my mind. First, really not sure why the delay in shipping for those units that were ready to ship. Leica must have known a while back when changing the production line. That entire part still seems a bit strange to me. Second, if there are some found last minute glitches, it is good that Leica is trying to iron them out before the S2 ships. The hope is that any such glitches are minor and easily corrected, but I admit that I have a sneakingly not so good feeling about something a bit more serious needing attention. Again, if that is the case, glad they are doing it before shipping.

On the other side of things, this delay is probably not helping them. It seems to give more time to Hassy and Phase to offer a few more options and things to keep folks in their camp, or even to attract some that may have been sitting on the sidelines. Not that a month or two is that big a deal, but in this case, given all the other stuff starting to drop into the market also, it could slow the burn for the S2. Personally, I was really waiting to see this thing in action, see some real images finally (including RAW files), and get thinking about decisions. With the offerings, deals and pushes from other camera companies now, the S2 is slowly drifting a bit further away. Hope they do not suffer any more delays.

Have to say, with the recent D3s and now the 1DMkIV announcements in the 35mm DSLR camp, the promises of a 28-32+MP DSLR are getting much closer. Yes, the comparisons between the sensor and the glass are probably not going to be that close, but the higher resolutions and new technologies there are hard to ignore, given all those other beasts can do already. It will be interesting, as part of what could have been the group from the 35mm DSLR camp that were seriously thinking about the S2, are seeing some pretty attractive options to remain with Canon or Nikon before they even get a chance to evaluate the S2. Again, hope this is the only delay, and that the reason is nothing serious, but I cannot shake the feeling that this is not good for Leica at this point.....unless the really only care about selling to a more select, less demanding crowd that is willing to wait and pay for their S2.

LJ
 

ptomsu

Workshop Member
I was a bit dismayed when this announcement was made. Aside from wanting to start seeing what the S2 can do, it raised a couple of points in my mind. First, really not sure why the delay in shipping for those units that were ready to ship. Leica must have known a while back when changing the production line. That entire part still seems a bit strange to me. Second, if there are some found last minute glitches, it is good that Leica is trying to iron them out before the S2 ships. The hope is that any such glitches are minor and easily corrected, but I admit that I have a sneakingly not so good feeling about something a bit more serious needing attention. Again, if that is the case, glad they are doing it before shipping.

On the other side of things, this delay is probably not helping them. It seems to give more time to Hassy and Phase to offer a few more options and things to keep folks in their camp, or even to attract some that may have been sitting on the sidelines. Not that a month or two is that big a deal, but in this case, given all the other stuff starting to drop into the market also, it could slow the burn for the S2. Personally, I was really waiting to see this thing in action, see some real images finally (including RAW files), and get thinking about decisions. With the offerings, deals and pushes from other camera companies now, the S2 is slowly drifting a bit further away. Hope they do not suffer any more delays.

Have to say, with the recent D3s and now the 1DMkIV announcements in the 35mm DSLR camp, the promises of a 28-32+MP DSLR are getting much closer. Yes, the comparisons between the sensor and the glass are probably not going to be that close, but the higher resolutions and new technologies there are hard to ignore, given all those other beasts can do already. It will be interesting, as part of what could have been the group from the 35mm DSLR camp that were seriously thinking about the S2, are seeing some pretty attractive options to remain with Canon or Nikon before they even get a chance to evaluate the S2. Again, hope this is the only delay, and that the reason is nothing serious, but I cannot shake the feeling that this is not good for Leica at this point.....unless the really only care about selling to a more select, less demanding crowd that is willing to wait and pay for their S2.

LJ
Share your opinion and thoughts!

WRT next generation DSLRs and 28 - 30MP or what else is possible, please keep in mind that even more MP will not help as long as these DSLRs have to suffer from AA filters. Re,ember that neither the S2 nor the MFDBs do have this filters, which adds a big bonus to the superior IQ IMHO.

Anyway, I decided to have some real time, real fun an will get a Panasonic GF1 with Pancake lens - I trust what Guy is finding here :thumbs:
 

LJL

New member
Peter,
Who knows....maybe that much smaller pixel size might start to eliminate some of the need for AA filters on those CMOS chips. The new gapless microlenses also seem to be allowing for weaker and weaker AA filters. So maybe that big differentiator between CMOS and CCD will become a bit less relevant. The CCD color qualities are still stunning, but the costs for something that can be boosted a bit in post are getting harder to justify in some minds, mine included. Just some food for thought......heresey on the MF front, but real nonetheless ;-)

LJ
 
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Dale Allyn

New member
LJ,

We often see these things in a similar way. But as one who shoots Canon and a "lowly" Phase One P25+ I can say that the DSLR folks have a ways to go, at least for certain types of image making. While MY P25+ is going UP in value every day :)ROTFL:) some folks are finding MFD prices coming down, especially in the 22-28MP class. For my money, and my type of photography (whatever that is) I still see a big difference b/n the output of DSLRs and AA filter-less-CCD-backs.

I'm not suggesting that you are saying anything to the contrary, as I read your posts as being forward-looking. I don't like pixel-peeping, as I think it gets in the way of "real photography", but for certain types of work there is still a very recognizable difference produced by the different design philosophies of the DSLR makers and MFD makers. I expected to upgrade before now, but my timing has been controlled by other influences. Never the less, I still see real differences between the different approaches. My guess is that the S2 will be spectacular, and the weather sealing is a huge benefit to someone like me. And at that same time I think of what the new 1Ds mk IV might bring... and then realize that it will still be a 24x36mm sensor with a strong AA filter. If I go to Africa I will want it, but I will miss my crappy ol' P25+ while I'm there. :)

I recently did a portrait session (actually two) in which I shot both systems. The differences where not trivial, and this coming from one who truly hates "pixels over content" judgments. Ultimately, in the second of the mentioned sessions, we opted for the Canon stuff because the light was just too low (natural light + reflectors). In the former shoot we opted for the the P1 images, hands down. Light was still modest, but there was a great "fullness" to it. The images pop unlike DSLR files.

I'ts not Kool-Aid, and I know that you know this too. There are many of us who wish it was, so that we could avoid the slippery slope. ;)

The fact of the matter is, we're lucky because all of the gear we lug around takes great images if we do our part, and it's only getting better.
 
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vieri

Well-known member
Disappointing indeed, and coming with an especially bad timing for Leica IMHO. As some of you know, I am just new into DMF and happy with my Phase1 P45+, 645 AF & Bicam system, so I was out of the S2 game anyway, thus not much has changed for me personally.

However, I think that those who underestimate future Phase & Hassy announcements in respect to the fate of the S2 are missing a couple of things there:

- Leica could and probably will loose customers due to the release of new cameras/sensors (new Hassy, new Phase 645 DF, new entry-level Leaf back, new high MP Leaf backs, etc);

- one of the advantages of the S2 is IMO in the high flash sync with LS lenses, which could be enough of a reason to switch for those who need it. If Phase keep their shipping dates on their new Schneider lenses, people who need this feature will get these lenses and will not likely be waiting for the ghost S2: once they do, they will be much less likely to switch when the S2 will finally be out.

Of course, I am aware of the point re: possible superior IQ, DSLR-like handling etc; however, working photographer need something that works now, not in an hypothetical future, and the IQ, speed, features that the present offer of Hassy, Phase & Leaf guarantee is pretty much covering all bases; more, they are working hard and releasing new stuff fast enough to cover what is missing in their line-up. I am afraid with Leica's delay, assuming they will keep their January date, the potential customer base as far as the working pro is concerned will have shrunk a fair bit...

Of course, rich amateurs will always be there, so no problem there! :D

Just my .02...
 

LJL

New member
Dale,
I think we are very much on the same track and perspective. I did not want to give the impression that I think any 35mm DSLR today is going to rival the image quality from a good MF rig. I see the differences myself. I too would love the S2 to come through and deliver for me in ways that I presently dream and hope a future Canon camera may be able to. Not kidding myself, nor suggesting there is or soon will be image parity from the systems. All that being said, the advances on the 35mm DSLR side of things appear to be outpacing most of what we see in MF today, and that should not surprise anybody. the 35mm DLSR format will be limited, but the advances being made now are nothing to ignore. Should we reach the point where a Canon or Nikon is able to crank out a respectable 30+MP image, one has to start seriously considering just how much advantage will remain in MF for the much larger industry and its uses. Sure, MF hands down looks much better today compared to the best 35mm DSLR files. That gap will get closed little by little, but the other features on the 35mm system vastly outpace where MF is today and where they might go in the near future. I think a lot does have to do with needs. If my buying clients are really not agonizing over the fine detail image quality, and worse yet, are not willing to pay for something they are not really appreciating, one has to consider the reasons to invest so much with only personal satisfaction in return. I, or you can still keep a MF for delivering on that front, but when pressed to get shots, the 35mm DSLRs today and those possibly coming, are not giving up too much image ground, but they are able to provide a lot more flexibility and utility where it may matter in more and more cases.

I still have some lust for the S2 or the H4D-60 or even the Phase stuff (though I still do not like that body), and will probably add kit as I feel comfortable. In the meantime, it is nice to see the 35mm DSLR stuff making some decent strides to helping deliver more without breaking the bank quite as much.

LJ

P.S. A completely different perspective.....the new 1DMkIV is able to handle 160MP/s in speed. That puts every MF system to shame in a big way. Now, if some of that horsepower could be harnessed to deliver even more refined images from future dialed in sensors, things start to change in different ways. There just seems to be so much more tech on the side of the 35mm folks at this point, that IF (biggest word) they can keep fine-tuning the sensors, not just for high ISO, but to eliminate AA filters, increase color depth, etc., things will look a bit different rather quickly.
 
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Dale Allyn

New member
LJ,

We largely agree. Many of the benefits of the DSLRs appear to be carefully considered in the design of the S2. These benefits are not trivial, when it comes to handling, weather sealing, etc.

Paying-clients often don't see anything remotely related to what is discussed here, and yet still we pursue "it". I think that's a good thing, at least on some levels, but maybe not a pure business level. ;)

As I watch the various VDOs regarding the S2 I realize that the four lenses that they are currently suggesting will be available soon will just not cover enough for me. Covering 35mm to 180mm in only four steps is not for me. I absolutely hate to crop (except for certain types of projects) and can't image jumping from 35mm to 70mm to 120mm to 180mm. I have a lot of respect for what Leica is doing (or trying to do), but reality is telling me that this four lens kit is too limiting for me.

It's midnight here in Bangkok. I need to sleep now. I hope everyone has a great day (or night).

d...
 

pcunite

New member
A properly processed DSLR file with the same level of attention and proportional money spent at the time of capture (fast glass for aperture blur and quality light) would be hard to tell the difference in a MFD version of the same scene. You have to let go of your preferences and utilize both to their best of the ability. I have yet to see anyone online truly do this. All I hear is a bunch of emotionally charged opinions on how superior MFD is without any quantifying side by side shots of the same scene. I don't need to see 200% blowups either. I mean final viewing/printing sizes under 16x24. We all know MFD is better for printing beyond that because of the sheer number of pixels (assuming you own a $30K back that is and can keep shake down to 0).

I want a MFD system but not because I believe my customers are going to see a difference. For certain types of my work I enjoy a large viewfinder at the time of capture and a good 100% imaged editing experience during workflow. I will not spend $30K to get this feeling however.
 

LJL

New member
LJ,

We largely agree. Many of the benefits of the DSLRs appear to be carefully considered in the design of the S2. These benefits are not trivial, when it comes to handling, weather sealing, etc.

Paying-clients often don't see anything remotely related to what is discussed here, and yet still we pursue "it". I think that's a good thing, at least on some levels, but maybe not a pure business level. ;)

As I watch the various VDOs regarding the S2 I realize that the four lenses that they are currently suggesting will be available soon will just not cover enough for me. Covering 35mm to 180mm in only four steps is not for me. I absolutely hate to crop (except for certain types of projects) and can't image jumping from 35mm to 70mm to 120mm to 180mm. I have a lot of respect for what Leica is doing (or trying to do), but reality is telling me that this four lens kit is too limiting for me.

It's midnight here in Bangkok. I need to sleep now. I hope everyone has a great day (or night).

d...
Dale,
As you drift off in your dreams, think about the supposed 30-90 zoom for the S2. That one seems to get lost in much of the discussion, and it could become the real gem. Just wish it was f2.5 and had a central shutter planned as some of the others. It could go a long way to filling gaps, much as the 24-70mm lenses do for so much of 35mm shooting....but a Leica lens for that range could be awesome....just needs to be faster ;-)

LJ
 

gogopix

Subscriber
Withe the leaf shutter lenses not coming till early next year (maybe? :D ) it maybe didn't matter that the body was a bit delayed.

Curious all the hand wringing over the delay is by the 'non buyers' :deadhorse:
[Been waiting to use that one :ROTFL::ROTFL::ROTFL: ]
Victor
 

LJL

New member
Hey Victor, did you stop to consider that those "non buyers" may have been "buyers", but need more, cannot wait, and do not want to spend quite so much at this point on something that is not yet released, not really shaken down, and has a limited set of offerings for the broader needs at this point? Just a thought.

LJ
 

robmac

Well-known member
At this juncture no one is 'a buyer' per se as there is no camera or raw images to evaluate. That said, there are two types of potential buyers for the S2:

1. Those that will wait, regardless of delay and buy the S2, barring it being an utter dog at release (unlikely) based partially on faith and the feeling, that on paper, Leica has answered what they were looking for. For all but the most dire reasons, buying an S2 for these folks is a done deal. Tis a matter of when not if.

2. Those that would like to possibly move to a 1st MFD or another MFD, quite possibly the S2, and are evaluating ALL their options carefully. To them, the S2 is one option not THE option as they strive for the best solution to their workflow for their $$ with the least disruption/potential risk to same. They want to shoot it, process raw files, see if the touted pro S&S program has a pulse, see if LR can work some S2-specifc magic on the DNGs, read feedback from folks they trust on it, etc.

It is this latter crowd that ongoing delays and the "I wonder what the issue is.." and second-guessing as to the product's viability the ongoing delays drive that Leica risks losing to Hassy/Phase+Leaf as time passes.

For possible buyer #2, Leica is treading water as other players move forward with options like LS glass, tech innovation like the H4 and in price/performance with ongoing price drops and rejuvenated trade-up programs. Production delays for whatever reason they care to release are one thing, but the fact no raw files are yet released does not bode well. If the files were stunning out of camera, there is no harm in releasing them or a couple of QC'd bodies to 3rd parties to eval to appease fence-sitters as volume 'production issues' (huh uh) get ironed out.

The option of the latest and greatest as-yet-to-be tested uber-charged sex-on-wheels AMG at some possible future date becomes a harder and harder sell as release deadlines keep getting extended for WTF? reasons and Lexus, BMW, Porsche et al keeping waving increasingly appealing and innovative (vs prior models) bargains in your face every quarter.

All that being said, I think a realistic viewpoint is that Buyer #1 will speak for the VAST majority of the S2's initial production run, despite Leica's expressed target-market assertions to the contrary.
 
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carstenw

Active member
A few of you have said that this delay means that Leica will lose sales to Phase, due to the new LS glass. When is it coming out? Has anyone seen any of the lenses, other than the 80?
 

paulmoore

New member
A few of you have said that this delay means that Leica will lose sales to Phase, due to the new LS glass. When is it coming out? Has anyone seen any of the lenses, other than the 80?
if the s2 is a ghost then the new phase camera and LS lenses are phantoms.. and no sales will be lost to phase. I see only hasselblad gaining some sales for those few that have to move now on something.
 

vieri

Well-known member
if the s2 is a ghost then the new phase camera and LS lenses are phantoms.. and no sales will be lost to phase. I see only hasselblad gaining some sales for those few that have to move now on something.
Well, the Phase LS lenses are so far less phantoms than the Leica CS anyway - at least we have seen one of the Phase :D

Anyway, I'll bet you that we'll be able to buy the Phase 645 DF before we'll be able to buy the S2, and that we'll be able to buy all three LS Phase leaf shutter lenses before we'll be able to buy three Leica CS lenses of your choice...
 
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