The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

[thomas]

Most here have Mamyia or Hassey and it is understandable that they are not going to comment favorably on a 'dead' system.

the "dead" system is actually vitally alive. There are still a lot of Contax' around. Phase/Leaf wouldn't provide Contax mount if it wouldn't be profitable (they sure don't do it just because they like Contax so much - though they like Contax very much ).
I think it's understandable for a working pro who needs 24/7 service to rule out the Contax system today. Though it is really inexpensive to avoid any service at all by just buying one or two back up bodies and a second copy of the most important lenses. I sometimes look at ebay for lenses. A few weeks ago by accident I got a 2.0/80 for €210,-. I don't think someone has ever used it... it's like new.
Service is still provided and even if not you'll find the guys who can service the camera and lenses. At least here in Germany it's quite easy to find them.

 

[ptomsu]

Well,

WRT "Dead Systems" - one can always be happy with such a system, and such systems can survive for many years, also if there is no official support.

On the other hand I am done with these playing around and better leave this to people who are more patient than I am.

 

[thomas]

On the other hand I am done with these playing around and better leave this to people who are more patient than I am.

You only have to be patient if you want to make those "great" deals.
If you pay what dealers charge you can buy a Contax with 3 or 4 lenses within 1 day... within 1 hour actually. In my hometown there is a dealer who has one still on the shelf, a new one. As VAT and warranty are an issue you'd have to pay more in any case.
Took me 3 or 4 days to assemble my system back in the days. Just the waist level finder, vertical grip and the bellows lens hood were a bit harder to find.

As to patience that's a bit funny as you are looking for a solution since weeks. I normally decide and buy quickly ... either way cameras or anything else.

 

[ptomsu]

As to patience that's a bit funny as you are looking for a solution since weeks. I normally decide and buy quickly ... either way cameras or anything else.

I normally do so as well, but in the case of MF digital I am trying to slow down as long as I can, as it is very easy to burn lots of unnecessary cash here

 

[Steve Hendrix]

Yes, and there are people on the forum in the past year who have made the decision to buy into Contax, and are very happy.

Seems that doesn't make good press. Most here have Mamyia or Hassey and it is understandable that they are not going to comment favorably on a 'dead' system.

It is interesting that, for all its 'deadness', I have an AF top quality Zeiss designed lense system, with 60 MP soon to get live view. I haven't had a failure in 2 systems for 6-7 years.

But why do we Contax users persist in even mentioning it? We KNOW we are going to get slammed here by somebody :deadhorse:



Victor

I don't consider that a "dead system" is a deal killer.

Does the digital back work on that system and does that system do for you what you want it to? For many, that criteria has resulted in a Contax-based purchase. I just sold a P25+ to a Contax user a couple weeks ago. The fact development has ceased may be a concern to some, but not to others.

Contax-based sales have held very steady.


Steve Hendrix

 

[Guy Mancuso]

The Contax system is a nice system but for me the body changes can't happen. Just for example look at the AFD which has had basically 3 revamps and now a DF body. So for me that relies on speed of camera in many area's that is what stopped me from going Contax but certainly for some folks those improvements in the body don't mean as much. I know i maybe said dead system in the past but it is more like not a evolving system than anything else. So for me that was my choice but also in my case I am trying to make two different systems into one system which is a big task on any level. Right now with the DF coming that makes me put the 35mm even more so to the back burner. Obviously this all depends on how and what you shoot everyday.

Now on waiting . i don't know this is a tough call in a way Peter. I waited a while before jumping in also but mine was more about turmoil with who owns what and what direction these OEM's where going plus money. LOL
But finally I jumped in , now got to say maybe that was a waste of time waiting. Heck not much has changed since I jumped and the back i have today if I bought when i was thinking is still being sold and works wonders so the reality was a waste of time, at some point either you jump or don't. Obviously for you that is your call but the P45+ or P40+ fit your style like a glove and since I worked with you on the workshop on this area alone and see the joy you got out of shooting the tech camera than i see no reason to wait any longer but that is my observance of your situation not unless you have your heart set on a s2 than that would be the only reason to wait any longer. Just the way i see your situation and working with you.

 

[Steve Hendrix]

The Contax system is a nice system but for me the body changes can't happen. Just for example look at the AFD which has had basically 3 revamps and now a DF body. So for me that relies on speed of camera in many area's that is what stopped me from going Contax but certainly for some folks those improvements in the body don't mean as much. I know i maybe said dead system in the past but it is more like not a evolving system than anything else. So for me that was my choice but also in my case I am trying to make two different systems into one system which is a big task on any level. Right now with the DF coming that makes me put the 35mm even more so to the back burner. Obviously this all depends on how and what you shoot everyday.

Now on waiting . i don't know this is a tough call in a way Peter. I waited a while before jumping in also but mine was more about turmoil with who owns what and what direction these OEM's where going plus money. LOL
But finally I jumped in , now got to say maybe that was a waste of time waiting. Heck not much has changed since I jumped and the back i have today if I bought when i was thinking is still being sold and works wonders so the reality was a waste of time, at some point either you jump or don't. Obviously for you that is your call but the P45+ or P40+ fit your style like a glove and since I worked with you on the workshop on this area alone and see the joy you got out of shooting the tech camera than i see no reason to wait any longer but that is my observance of your situation not unless you have your heart set on a s2 than that would be the only reason to wait any longer. Just the way i see your situation and working with you.

And I might add that while our Contax-based sales have held steady, our Mamiya/Phase One-based camera platform sales have surged.


Steve Hendrix

 

[gdwhalen]

what fight?:angel:

hell, even Michael Reichman slammed the Hassey 110 that fell apart in his hands. Comes with the territory...

All's fair with love, war and 'gear sluts'



Victor

I took two Leica R's 5 years ago to Alaska to photograph Humpback whales. BOTH of them had electronic issues and they both failed the second of the 5 days I was there. Dead. Then the next summer on a trip to Ireland I took one R8 with me - the other R8 was being worked on - and it failed the very first time I tried to use it. Froze up completely.

Leica was great about it both times and eventually sent me two new cameras but that was after I already was home and lost the images of the final days of both of those trips. Not a fond memory.

Any system can have a lemon. And I don't want to hear about lemonade.

 

[Ben Rubinstein]

That is a bit of what would worry me and the reason why I wouldn't buy a dead system. Even having 2 of everything is not enough for me as a pro and that's from real world nightmare experience not just 'the principle'. I couldn't use a system where I couldn't get a spare couriered to me same day from the rental place, etc. I wouldn't use a system where if I was working with the backup, if that too died, I couldn't complete the job to the same spec.

 

[ptomsu]

I took two Leica R's 5 years ago to Alaska to photograph Humpback whales. BOTH of them had electronic issues and they both failed the second of the 5 days I was there. Dead. Then the next summer on a trip to Ireland I took one R8 with me - the other R8 was being worked on - and it failed the very first time I tried to use it. Froze up completely.

Leica was great about it both times and eventually sent me two new cameras but that was after I already was home and lost the images of the final days of both of those trips. Not a fond memory.

Any system can have a lemon. And I don't want to hear about lemonade.

Never had such severe issues with my Leicas but I am still very careful, as I do not want to repeat experiences like I had with DMR and first M8.

 

[ptomsu]

Now on waiting . i don't know this is a tough call in a way Peter. I waited a while before jumping in also but mine was more about turmoil with who owns what and what direction these OEM's where going plus money. LOL
But finally I jumped in , now got to say maybe that was a waste of time waiting. Heck not much has changed since I jumped and the back i have today if I bought when i was thinking is still being sold and works wonders so the reality was a waste of time, at some point either you jump or don't. Obviously for you that is your call but the P45+ or P40+ fit your style like a glove and since I worked with you on the workshop on this area alone and see the joy you got out of shooting the tech camera than i see no reason to wait any longer but that is my observance of your situation not unless you have your heart set on a s2 than that would be the only reason to wait any longer. Just the way i see your situation and working with you.

You are right Guy, and reason I did not jump in so far is, because I had no need for a MF system because of lack of time going for a decent photo trip. Now this will change early next year and I am pretty close to a choice as the P40+ looks very good for me and my requirements. I might want to take it with the new camera and do the same you did - just sell all my DSLR stuff. I know anyway I will not need/use DSLRs if I have a Phase system based on a P40+. I had for some days considered the Leaf Aptus 2 22MP back - really great price with camera and standard lens, but it is not really the best for landscape (low ISO values), so I have stopped thinking this route, back now at P40+ (else I get a really good and cheap P45+ offer).

Currently waiting for some good offers here in Austria and some used glass - maybe Jack's 150D

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Well after just using the P40+ again in Oregon I have to say it maybe the best price value back out there at the moment. At 19k new it is pretty hard to ignore, the quality of the back is certainly there is no question about that, it is actually better now than when you shot it with it's color profile in C1 . Not sure on prices but here in the states I think back and new DF body with 80mm might be about 22k or so. If i was buying new i would be only looking at 2 things right now a P40+ with DF or the S2 but for me the S2 is a purchase if I went that direction in about 6 months but today if I was buying the P40+ would be in my bag. For me it eliminates any thought of getting a 35mm DSLR. But I am also willing to work harder and with the limitations of MF over 35mm and many people are not. Obviously this has something to do with the work I do as well, but I don't shoot sports or anything that is a dominate 35mm arena.

Remember you don't have to buy in Austria either. Jacks lens you should be buying. It's that good and a proven lens

 

[ptomsu]

The S2 is still in my heart and back of my head

 

[Paratom]

Even if the Mamiya AF is 3times better than the Hy6 AF, and even if the production AF of the S2 will be much better than the AF of the S2 I had in my hands some weeks ago, I personally would think that limiting oneself to a MF system means to be limited to a certain focal-length range, being limited to good light or to use flash or tripod and to be very limited in the area of sports/ movements/action.
Thats why I would carefully wait and see if you really want to sell your DSLR stuff when moving to medium format.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Well I love to break most of those theories with MF. Things we keep being told you can't do because it is big , heavy and slow just prove half of that talk is just that talk. Either that or I am damn good at cheating all of that you need a 35mm DSLR. Sure in some cases it is true but I keep beating those theories up everyday. Now would you recommend shooting a Phase body with a 150mm at 1/60 of a second handheld with no flash at F 3.4. Now most people would say I am looney tunes for even trying. Right now in this situation the S2 might even be a better choice in this situation because of the style but why is it I can still knock them out when we keep being told we can't. I only say this because the rules of photography are about as wishy washy as anything. Now i did use a flash after this shot but if I had my monopod handy at the time i would probably not. Movement is more subject than photographer half the time. BTW this is the one and only shot I took without a flash. It works 150mm 1/60 at 3.4 ISO 800 P30+ back. Now I contend if you buy a back that can handle the higher ISO cleanly than anything is possible.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Now Tom I only say this because we keep hearing about these so called limits, sure they are their no question and given a different situation I maybe a sitting duck trying to pull theses type of things off but really how much REAL difference between MF and 35mm. Lenses can be fast at 2.8 okay no 1.4 lenses out there in MF. Body is heavier and bulkier , depends on maybe the style of body that can make a difference . Here I would say the S2 has the biggest advantage in MF than the Phase and Contax bodies comes next because it resembles a SLR the best out of the MF systems like a Hy6 or RZ body. ISO now here is the difference but if you have a back that can do a clean ISO 800 than half the battle is over. To me ISO 800 clean is the bottom limit of pulling the impossible into reality with MF without it than it would be tough. I would not try this with a back that stops at ISO 400. Than I agree i would be a sitting duck without water underneath me. So yes i agree on some of these limits but knowing your gear and how you can squeeze the most out of it is really the key. A lot of this comes down to the shooter and his abilities to overcome the obstacles. Problem is many shooters don't want to work that hard and push a button. Okay flame suit on but I hear more whining about this than actually doing it and getting it done. Not directed at anyone here for sure but I read this on other forums all the time. Sometimes i feel like slapping someone upside the head and tell them to go to work instead of bitching all day long.

 

[woodyspedden]

Well after just using the P40+ again in Oregon I have to say it maybe the best price value back out there at the moment. At 19k new it is pretty hard to ignore, the quality of the back is certainly there is no question about that, it is actually better now than when you shot it with it's color profile in C1 . Not sure on prices but here in the states I think back and new DF body with 80mm might be about 22k or so. If i was buying new i would be only looking at 2 things right now a P40+ with DF or the S2 but for me the S2 is a purchase if I went that direction in about 6 months but today if I was buying the P40+ would be in my bag. For me it eliminates any thought of getting a 35mm DSLR. But I am also willing to work harder and with the limitations of MF over 35mm and many people are not. Obviously this has something to do with the work I do as well, but I don't shoot sports or anything that is a dominate 35mm arena.

Remember you don't have to buy in Austria either. Jacks lens you should be buying. It's that good and a proven lens

I won't comment on the P40+ back as I have no experience. But I do get amused that the naysayers are dumping all over the S2 based on price but at $22K for the body and "back" compared to $19K for the Phase back alone I don't get it.

Woody

 

[gogopix]

woody

Good point. The difference is that people with backs are USED to paying high prices.
It is just sticker shock. The cars still go out of the showroom!

Regards
Victor

 

[Guy Mancuso]

I won't comment on the P40+ back as I have no experience. But I do get amused that the naysayers are dumping all over the S2 based on price but at $22K for the body and "back" compared to $19K for the Phase back alone I don't get it.

Woody

Woody for 22k you get a 80mm lens also. Most folks issue is Leica's S2 normal lens is 6k and that is what has people concerned about. In all of historical time with photography the NORMAL lens was either a giveaway or very inexpensive. Leica chose a different and unusual path here and this is a very bottom line issue because the S2 with a lens is now 28k before any warranties besides standard warranties. This is exactly what folks are looking at and than additional lenses START at 5k. This puts leica in a very weird position. If leica IMHO and i said this to them dropped that standard lens price to 2k than there market just opened up a whole bunch. If we could drop in at 24k with body and lens for the S2 that makes it a much more appealing purchase. I have no issue with the other lenses but getting people in the door at 24k instead of 28k just opens the whole market. I know a lossy 4k difference and may not seem like real money but it is the appearance that counts here. To me and me personally makes this a much tougher purchase at 28k but most Pro's may jump in at 24k figuring 2k more is not a big deal. This is a very tricky line in the sand right here be it right or wrong on Leica's part and I know they wanted a normal lens to be special but 6k for a leaf lens compared to Phase's new leaf lens at 2400 is a BIG difference. This could break a lot of sales right at the gate and that is my concern for Leica.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

woody

Good point. The difference is that people with backs are USED to paying high prices.
It is just sticker shock. The cars still go out of the showroom!

Regards
Victor

Victor for the rich not a issue but for working Pro's it does matter and you need to place yourself in those shoes from a marketing standpoint. The real question is who is Leica selling to here and what impact do they want to make on the Pro market or not. If it is just the rich hobbyist great but not sure that will brand the S2 as a Pro camera. Remember I'm the nice guy here but many working Pros will look at this and think Hermes and what is the point and walk the other way in a heart beat. That's fine for the rich hobbyist and there special camera branding and makes them feel good about life but WHO is the real market here. Obviously Leica wants to sell this thing but on the same hand they want to break in the Pro market and that IMHO is very important to them. New camera, new system, new tightrope on marketing and what if any direction should one aim at.

It may sell like hot cakes but that does not always mean it will be a Pro camera. How important is that title to leica over revenue. My bet more important than the revenue. Leica thrives on pride and without success to the market in their mind it will be a failure. Everything about Leica and I'm being very honest here they want to make the best bar none. But on the same token if it is not in the right hands than they failed at that attempt. They want Pro's shooting this thing.