The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

[carstenw]

Stealing a link from the M forum by a non-MF user, let's get a more constructive thread started on the Leica S2:

http://www.juzaphoto.com/eng/articles/leica_s2_review_samples.htm

It is interesting to see the ISO comparison. ISO 160 is stunning, ISO 320 is still very good, but starting at ISO 640, the quality is not there. However, the last several shots all look underexposed. I would love to see what the quality would be like with high ISO but properly exposed shots. I presume it would improve things a bit, possibly to the point that 640 is okay, but 1250 looks gone.

I do hope that Leica spends the time between now and Christmas well, and gets at least a relatively clean 640 out of it.

 

[carstenw]

Just found this comment on the Leica forum:

"It's a Nullserie-camera build months ago and not usable beyond base-ISO."

I guess we are still looking for a production model and its results. Perhaps David Farkas will have something to post sometime soon?

 

[thomas]

"It's a Nullserie-camera build months ago and not usable beyond base-ISO."
I guess we are still looking for a production model and its results. Perhaps

but the shot was taken two days ago. So it might be the current firmware... but we don't know.
I wonder why he is posting a "review"... no NDA anymore?

pfff... blown out red chanel. We should wait for better files (and a better RAW converter).

 

[tjv]

Something seems amiss. But lets be honest, with MF cameras like this no one ever really used film beyond 800ISO. Well, maybe the occasional doco photographer would, but it seems that's were the current high res 35mm systems deliver now. This is a serious low ISO MF camera built for the studio and location where high detail and precision is the main priority. Not an ISO demon. Still looks like an attractive camera for me but pity I'll never be able to afford it!

 

[carstenw]

Yeah, the high ISO results are not so impressive, but if it really is an early firmware in that camera, then we have to wait and see what is coming. The low ISO results look very good though.

 

[tjv]

Agreed, I downloaded the sample and was impressed by the tonality and detail.
I must stress I'd love to own this camera as it fits 100% of my needs, both for personal and professional work. Just wish it was closer in costs to the high end 35mm systems than the top end MF systems. If the D3x costs $15000NZ approx, I'd pay (if I had this kind of money in the first place!) $25000NZ for the S2. Current list price for the S2 is about another $10000 on top of what I'm willing to pay. I really hope this camera succeeds as I'd love it to be a higher volume product with a chance of a price reduction in a later evolution.

Perhaps I missed this too, but have Leica finalized their service backup for the S2 for us countries outside the EU and US? Last I heard the S2 may not make it to NZ at all because of such low volume and potential issues with service, replacement and repair turnaround. Can't see how it would be any better with Phase or Hassey in that department here either, but that doesn't stop them selling units to those few who want them.

 

[carstenw]

As I understand it, Leica is training their top dealers to be S2 support channels. This does rely on the dealer being willing to meet the requirements and go through the training. You might ask at your largest, most well-established dealer what their take on this is.

 

[thomas]

The low ISO results look very good though.

Agreed, I downloaded the sample and was impressed by the tonality and detail.

I can't see anything that would impress me. And I am actually missing fine tonality ... it looks a bit unsubtle.
Then again these are mediocre (and oversaturated) captures... RAW files would be interessting.

 

[georgl]

That was me ;-)
Of course I don't know what they changed in the final cameras, but those "Nullserie" wasn't meant to be shot beyond base-ISO - that's what David Farkas and Michael Reichmann mentioned in their test with the very same generation.

The final cameras are presented right now in NYC - that's what Mr. Farkas said, or am I wrong?

But we shouldn't expect any miracles, it's a current 6µm-CCD-camera but due to it's microlenses it has a sensitivity range of 80-1250ASA instead of 50-800ASA (H3DII-50, P40+, P65+). Mr. Mancuso made a great noise-comparison of his P40+, here's the 800ASA-shot (1250ASA with S2?):
http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=17756&d=1244980993

Is any of the 20+MP-DSLRs usable beyond 1600ASA for fine-art-prints? I don't think so.

 

[tjv]

I can't see anything that would impress me. And I am actually missing fine tonality ... it looks a bit unsubtle.
Then again these are mediocre (and oversaturated) captures... RAW files would be interessting.

Yes, the files themselves are over saturated and who knows what variables were involved in the processing, but I do see some amazing (compared to my D700) resolving power. I'm not seeing 7x the resolving power as the price would suggest, but I do see something, thankfully!

Like art, I suppose, the S2 will be what it is, no more and no less. Fingers crossed it will exceed most people expectations when it does actually see the real light of day.

 

[Christopher]

Well, the high ISO stuff looks bad, really bad. However, it perhaps wasn't a finished camera and Lightroom 2 was used, which certainly didn't add to the file quality. L3 should certainly look a little better, even though I still think c1 has the edge.

The low ISO stuff looks good, however not really better than something from my old P45 with the 80D mm or 150D mm. Now what about finally showing us RAWWW files ;-)

 

[fotografz]

Stealing a link from the M forum by a non-MF user, let's get a more constructive thread started on the Leica S2:

http://www.juzaphoto.com/eng/articles/leica_s2_review_samples.htm

It is interesting to see the ISO comparison. ISO 160 is stunning, ISO 320 is still very good, but starting at ISO 640, the quality is not there. However, the last several shots all look underexposed. I would love to see what the quality would be like with high ISO but properly exposed shots. I presume it would improve things a bit, possibly to the point that 640 is okay, but 1250 looks gone.

I do hope that Leica spends the time between now and Christmas well, and gets at least a relatively clean 640 out of it.

Thanks for this.

While I could imagine a combination of firmware and software profiles adding some quality to the higher ISOs, I doubt it'll be a significant improvement. We'll see. It does take more than a few days working with a camera to zero in on how to shoot and process for max IQ.

Pixel Binning would have been a super idea for the S2 ... making it a better replacement for the high-end DSLRs, while providing MFD quality on demand in studio.

It seems to me that the norm for very useable high ISO with the high meg 35mm DSLRs is hovering around ISO 1000 to 1250. Both the Sony A900 and Nikon D3X I use are really quite good at these ISOs once you learn the shooting and processing perimeters ... same for the Canon 1DsMKIII I used previously.

To be honest, I don't see anything in the lower ISOs from the S2 that isn't already there with a medium level Phase One or Hassey camera ... let alone a P65+ or H4D-60 which cost less than this kit. The form factor is the best thing it has going for it. But if it can't get to a good ISO 1000 level it can't be a replacement for the Sony or Nikon I currently use ... which does have the same form factor ... and in especially in the case of the Nikon or Canon Pro bodies, is fast as hell.

Time will tell.

-Marc

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Really nothing we have not seen in MF today so jury still out. On the ISO front I don't expect it to beat any current back that can do ISO 800 really well today, my current P30+ is a very good example of that and many shots here that show that as well as the P40+. Buts lets face some reality their as well. Most of us already know when it comes to noise nothing is better than C1 to process in on that front. This is a nice cam but I am not expecting any miracles beyond what we have today in some of the newer backs. What will be interesting is how this 6 micron camera will handle diffraction. It was clear the other day shooting the P40+the limit is certainly there at f16. It seems the smaller the micron size the faster the diffraction limit hits. Thats science and not changeable. It will have a small benefit on Moire which I noticed in their test but Leica claims no moire which I still don't buy that claim unless there is a AF cut off at the Nyquist limit on focus. Another science issue that trying to get around is first not easy but also cuts of the absolute sharpness of the the lens. Really not a good thing if you think about it that either two things are happening the lens first of all can't focus to the absolute critical of sharpness or the system itself is cutting it off somehow. This one seems very strange to me and I do NOT want to hear marketing chatter on it either , this is a science issue. But obviously I am no engineer either but something here just seems off.

 

[carstenw]

Yes, I can get similar results with my 22MP Sinar e54LV at base ISO, but then again, this is a normal lens. Wait until we see the wides. I expect to see more difference there. In general, I expect the sensor to be on par with the rest, and the lenses to be one notch up. We'll see if I am just deluding myself or if Leica can pull that off.

 

[thomas]

I do see some amazing (compared to my D700) resolving power

compared to a D700 of course. Compared to MF digital backs clearly not (by now).
Leica said the S2 will match the resolution of the H3D50 due to the superiority of their lenses. By now it looks worse than my prehistoric P45 with the regular Contax/Zeiss lenses - not to mention Digitar lenses. Of course only with regard to the few S2 samples that are around; I actually expect the IQ to be better once an experienced photographer got the camera in his hands and plays around with the files for some days.
Then again LR clearly won't help a lot to match the competition. For high ISO you'll probably need layers in Photoshop as, of course, with higher ISO a smart desaturation in dark tonal values does the trick (like e.g. Nikon does it already at the RAW stage). Too, dedicated (icc-) camera profiles help a lot even regarding noise, especially with Tungsten light. Now the Adobe guys write long essays why there is no difference between icc profiles and the camera "calibration" as implemented in ACR and LR resp. the DNG editor. Maybe in theory, but they still have to prove that they come at least somewhere close to C1 (or other applications using icc input profiles).

 

[thomas]

What will be interesting is how this 6 micron camera will handle diffraction. It was clear the other day shooting the P40+the limit is certainly there at f16.

with the 6.8micron chips the limit was already the same ... diffraction starts somewhere between f8 and f11 though at f11 you still have the full resolving power of the lens/chip (maybe just a slight negligible loss in contrast at the image center). At f16 you clearly see diffraction on 6.8micorn sensors. f16 is totally usable, IMO, however diffraction is there.

 

[Graham Mitchell]

Remember these files are using minimal processing by someone who has never used the system before. Normally we would use noise reduction at higher ISOs and that makes quite a difference. Firmware upgrades can also help. Having said all that, this was never going to be a high ISO monster.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

with the 6.8micron chips the limit was already the same ... diffraction starts somewhere between f8 and f11 though at f11 you still have the full resolving power of the lens/chip (maybe just a slight negligible loss in contrast at the image center). At f16 you clearly see diffraction on 6.8micorn sensors. f16 is totally usable, IMO, however diffraction is there.

Thanks Thomas and this is true and I agree on my P30+ F16 is totally useable. The 6 micron it just popped at me more and I'm also on a laptop which makes it even harder for me at the moment until i get back to my big screen to look at this more. Pretty interesting actually

 

[fotografz]

Remember these files are using minimal processing by someone who has never used the system before. Normally we would use noise reduction at higher ISOs and that makes quite a difference. Firmware upgrades can also help. Having said all that, this was never going to be a high ISO monster.

I don't think anyone is expecting it to be a high ISO monster ... but the competitive set is already there with constant improvement in Phase and Hassey Higher ISO quality .... especially the crop frame backs which do a very usable 800+ now. Even my old Leaf Aptus 75s was excellent @ 800.

BTW, are you sure it was minimal processing? I also don't think noise reduction would fix the look of those high ISO S2 files.

However, no doubt it'll do nothing but get better as it gets tweaked and into the hands of more skilled processing folks working with better post profiles. :thumbup:

 

[robsteve]

The high ISO files look under exposed and there doesn't seem to be any noise reduction applied. In the case of the other Leica CCD digitals, Capture One does a much better job of high ISO than lightroom. For the DMR the later versions of C1 made the 800iso files much better and a properly exposed 1600iso usable.

I tried the two DNGs posted on the other thread (nobody noticed them because they were too busy ranting) and they opened in C1 4.8.3. They just looked like a generic DNG. I suspect since they were using Lightroom, they gave the shooter the files via save as DNG in Lightroom, rather than just copy the original DNG.

Robert