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The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
I can open and process in C1 Version 5. The 180mm shot well sorry it is not doing it for me at all. Obviously one image so far but it can't compete in MF with that one. Need to see more for sure

Needs clarity level set at 60 which is twice as much as my P30+ . It's okay but that is a pretty high setting and not what you want to do on a portrait
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Okay looked at all four images and coming from a MF shooter they pretty much are on par with my back or a P40 back . They still need a touch of base sharpening to get to what I normally see in these type of files , the good news is they are no worse than that . So that is a good start for Leica but in C1 at the pre-shapening 1 level you are getting a little bit of halo's so have to adjust slightly there. No way it equals a P65+ folks so get that one out of the your head. It's good and what I expected and if this is the type of body and features you are after than maybe a good choice but still a long way to go as a system and it's whole parts as well. Certainly nice to see the raws without any one else's processing in them. Certainly any current 35mm shooter will think they are the cat's meow but pretty standard for MF shooters so far.

Bokeh also looks pretty standard for both lenses . There color out of the cam is pretty good maybe slightly on the warm side.
 
G

gdwhalen

Guest
I am beginning to believe that most people would prefer to talk about equipment than take images. Signing off.
 

fotografz

Well-known member
I am beginning to believe that most people would prefer to talk about equipment than take images. Signing off.
Not exactly true ... go to the threads talking about shooting and showing images instead of the ones about gear.

It's always like this this time of year when the companies unveil their latest offerings. ;)
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Well, since some folks are preliminarily impressed and don't mind saying so, I guess it's okay to say I'm preliminarily not.

It looks like a Canon 1DsMKIII shot to me ... except you can blow it up a bit more, or crop it more. I don't like the foreground camera right hair at all ... detail looks smoothly blocked up and a bit waxy. Looked at in ACR and C1-Pro.

It's all preliminary. So, it means nothing yet. But, I don't like the direction.

Frankly, I was hoping for a DMR on steroids.

-Marc
 

atanabe

Member
Now you know why companies do not like to circulate images until a profile has been created. I processed the images in Lightroom 2 and they look fine, no artifacts, the color needed to be cooled down a bit exposure pumped up 1/3 stoop and that was about it. C1 may not be the developer of choice for these files currently.
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Now you know why companies do not like to circulate images until a profile has been created. I processed the images in Lightroom 2 and they look fine, no artifacts, the color needed to be cooled down a bit exposure pumped up 1/3 stoop and that was about it. C1 may not be the developer of choice for these files currently.
Yet, they released the M9 without a tweaked Profile ?????? :cussing:
 

robsteve

Subscriber
Frankly, I was hoping for a DMR on steroids.

-Marc
The early DMR shots didn't look that great either. I think there was a new firmware for it within a month of release that improved things. The latest firmware and the latest versions of Flexcolor and C1 did wonders for the DMR too.

I would give it a break until it is more widely used. Guy needs to get one and start a S2 vs .. thread and see where it goes :)

Robert
 
S

Shelby Lewis

Guest
Well, since some folks are preliminarily impressed and don't mind saying so, I guess it's okay to say I'm preliminarily not.

It looks like a Canon 1DsMKIII shot to me ... except you can blow it up a bit more, or crop it more. I don't like the foreground camera right hair at all ... detail looks smoothly blocked up and a bit waxy. Looked at in ACR and C1-Pro.

It's all preliminary. So, it means nothing yet. But, I don't like the direction.

Frankly, I was hoping for a DMR on steroids.

-Marc
I'm glad Marc finally said what I've been afraid to... I've yet to see a file from this camera that turns me on. In the pre-production examples at the top of the thread, the bokeh on the samples had distinct "bright-ring" effects that I was hoping not to see from the Leica optics. None of the 3d rendering I've been enjoying from the m9 images. None of this is an indictment on the photography...

Skin... just looks strange. Tons of detail... but a (to borrow Marc's word in a different context) waxiness on skin as well. Maybe it's just me. Maybe I'm used to seeing skin that looks bad, lol, and now I'm finally seeing the light.

All that said (disclaimer), I withhold final judgment until more stuff is out.
 

atanabe

Member
Yet, they released the M9 without a tweaked Profile ?????? :cussing:
It is the sorry state of the industry I guess. One company makes the sensor, another adds it to the body and another one creates the software to make it all work. When one drops the ball, the whole train stops. As far as a tweaked profile is concerned, Leica is at the mercy of Adobe, Phase One, Aperture to come up with the correct profile for their cameras.

The real world today exists with no standards, with film, the chemical process was a true standard and manufactures would engineer the emulsion to work with that chemical process. Now every manufacturer has their own proprietary sensor - raw format and of course their own developer (Software).
 

paulmoore

New member
Well, since some folks are preliminarily impressed and don't mind saying so, I guess it's okay to say I'm preliminarily not.

It looks like a Canon 1DsMKIII shot to me ... except you can blow it up a bit more, or crop it more. I don't like the foreground camera right hair at all ... detail looks smoothly blocked up and a bit waxy. Looked at in ACR and C1-Pro.

It's all preliminary. So, it means nothing yet. But, I don't like the direction.

Frankly, I was hoping for a DMR on steroids.

-Marc
marc,
from what I have seen of the dozen or so shots I got from few minutes of shooting..it is like my dmr on steroids. This was just one tiny sliver of the possible shooting conditions that we deal with..yet it meant something and was confirmation of the ease of shooting and the quality of the lens.. more so for me, as I saw the the set, lighting, model,makeup and wardrobe first hand. I would like a through testing with it to see how it holds up to all the conditions I shoot in, but from my tests the other day I am so far impressed.
 

fotografz

Well-known member
marc,
from what I have seen of the dozen or so shots I got from few minutes of shooting..it is like my dmr on steroids. This was just one tiny sliver of the possible shooting conditions that we deal with..yet it meant something and was confirmation of the ease of shooting and the quality of the lens.. more so for me, as I saw the the set, lighting, model,makeup and wardrobe first hand. I would like a through testing with it to see how it holds up to all the conditions I shoot in, but from my tests the other day I am so far impressed.
Yeah, the whole "shooting experience" part of the equation is missing when just viewing a few "studio" files. That is a fair portion of the S2 appeal.

I really need to get one of these in my hands.

Pixel peeping aside, ALL of these cameras look good when shooting in the studio with great lighting ... or outside in perfect "fat" light. I'd love to have some properly exposed files shot in less ideal light using a SF58 with a bounce diffuser @ ISO 400, 500, 640 and 800 using the dragging the shutter technique in lower light ... which is how I would most likely use the S2 at least 80% of the time. I don't need the camera for low available light, nor do I use the Nikon D3X or Sony A900 that way ... I use fill flash 80% of the time on and off camera. The M9 and all the super fast M lenses are my available light tools.

I just don't see this camera as replacing my MFD system ... but I'd gladly abandon most all of the 35mm DSLR gear if it could perform in those conditions reasonably well. I know from direct experience in my shooting scenarios that a wide, 70 and the 180 would be all that's needed.

What I have and what I actually use are two different things. Looking at the exif info collection from 1000 shots in Bridge reveals the truth of the matter.

-Marc
 

sandymc

New member
FYI, I looked at the images in all four of the latest versions of C1 and Aperture, as well as LR 2.4 and LR 3 beta. For me, both C1 and Aperture showed maze patterns and other artifacts, which neither version of LR did. Maze patterns especially are a sign of the raw converter not being tuned to the peculiarities of the camera. So I'd suggest not making any conclusions from anything you're seeing in either C1 or Aperture.

Sandy
 
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thomas

New member
It looks like a Canon 1DsMKIII shot to me ... except you can blow it up a bit more, or crop it more. I don't like the foreground camera right hair at all ... detail looks smoothly blocked up and a bit waxy.
I'd agree. But I think it's more the lighting here...?

For me, both C1 and Aperture showed maze patterns and other artifacts, which neither version of LR did.
yes, C1 produces a lot of artifacts. Too, the blacks are much more noisy than in ACR... finer noise but more noise. It's always the same with unsupported files in C1.
 

tjv

Active member
I downloaded and looked at the DNG files in ACR and must say that we're pretty spoilt for resolution and detail these days if these files, not even properly supported by the standard raw converters yet, can pull out so much detail and tone and not be best in class. I've no doubt the P65+ etc is better but, man, the S2 seems a great tool for those of us who value size and weather sealing over an interchangeable back.

I think when it's finally released properly to the public the only real valid criticism of its performance, aside from other system issues, will be its high price point on spec. I'm only a lowly photographer but I think a product like this, considering its specs and current comparative technology, should be 1/4 cheaper.
 

mtomalty

New member
Well, Photo East is a couple of hours from closing and we haven't,
exactly, seen an avalanche of S2 files.

The files we have seen certainly show the S2 as competent but nothing
that makes one get in line to wait

I don't know if I've missed another thread but, surely, there must be
more variety of samples available somewhere?

Even the Leica Users Forum doesn't have a single new thread
dealing with S2 images coming out of NYC this weekend

If nothing more is forthcoming I'm going to see if I can get clearance
from Amy, at Leica, to make available a couple of my outdoor test files
that better illustrate the S2's performance (good) in rendering detail in
a subject that might be more useful for a scenic oriented photographer

Mark

www.marktomalty.com
 
There were a lot of people at the S2 shoot last Thursday, but there wasn't much variety of things to shoot - it was in a studio. The only choices were the model and skyline out the window. I was only able to get one shot out the window. Others got more including comparison shots whith a Phase 65 and 80D lens. I saw the Phase 65 and S2 files side by side in C1 and LR respectively and the S2 held it own. I was surprised it compared so well with the 65. Of course I don't expect anyone to believe it until they can make the comparison themselves. There was anotherperson comparing the S2 against their Hassay system, but I didn't see those files. I will say that I was impressed that Leica allowed customers to shoot comparisons with their rigs with the model and studio lighting. They weren't hiding anything about the S2.

I don't know if it has been mentioned elswhere, but the studio shoot was shot with the S2 tethered to a computer running LR using beta software which dumped the image into LR. It worked pretty well. Another thing worth mentioning is that I suspect a lot of the people at the shoot may not be on the forums. Hence, the shortage of images.

Mark

Mark
 

paulmoore

New member
In hindsight I should have brought a macbeth chart..Leica should have one there.. I didn't ask..maybe they did..
The tethered set up, limited time, single light source and subject matter did not lend it self to a wide test.. also in hindsight I should have pushed to try other stuff, other iso's, should have brought in a bag of prop stuff and done a quick still life on the model's stool..or opened the black out curtains and do an available light portrait..lots could have, should have been done.. though another guy was waiting to shoot.
I too was surprised at the other cameras there and leica's open attitude.
Now that there are some production models out there I am sure they will put one or two in good tester's hands for at least a day of shooting.
 

Dale Allyn

New member
With Capture Integration announcing that they are going to be carrying Leica now, I would like to see a more balanced and objective comparison (than what has been available so far, even in discussions without disclosure). I'm always skeptical of comparisons made between say a Phase back and _________ camera/back when the person doing the comparison can't wring the most out of the Phase. Same holds for Hassey files, etc. I believe that Doug at CI would be well equipped to make side-by-side comparisons of backs from P30+ to P65+ and the S-2 when they get the camera. And I also think that Doug should be given a bit of time to learn how to best finish the S-2 files before jumping to conclusion.

For me, all of the backs produce great results, so it boils down to need (and budget), workflow preferences, etc. I expect the S-2 to do well too, but if I were to be honest, I expected a bit more of the early files. My guess is that we aren't really seeing the best results yet, i.e. various sets, environments, processing, profiles, etc. And also to me, the S-2 is nothing of a "Phase Killer" as some started to spout, but a potential alternative for some who prefer the form-factor, weather sealing, etc.

Bottom line is, I'd like to see those real images of a variety of subject types, and then I'd like to see some properly processed comparisons. Not comparisons done with butchered Phase or Hassey files in comparison.
 
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