The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

[ptomsu]

With Capture Integration announcing that they are going to be carrying Leica now, I would like to see a more balanced and objective comparison (than what has been available so far, even in discussions without disclosure). I'm always skeptical of comparisons made between say a Phase back and _________ camera/back when the person doing the comparison can't wring the most out of the Phase. Same holds for Hassey files, etc. I believe that Doug at CI would be well equipped to make side-by-side comparisons of backs from P30+ to P65+ and the S-2 when they get the camera. And I also think that Doug should be given a bit of time to learn how to best finish the S-2 files before jumping to conclusion.

For me, all of the backs produce great results, so it boils down to need (and budget), workflow preferences, etc. I expect the S-2 to do well too, but if I were to be honest, I expected a bit more of the early files. My guess is that we aren't really seeing the best results yet, i.e. various sets, environments, processing, profiles, etc. And also to me, the S-2 is nothing of a "Phase Killer" as some started to spout, but a potential alternative for some who prefer the form-factor, weather sealing, etc.

Bottom line is, I'd like to see those real images of a variety of subject types, and then I'd like to see some properly processed comparisons. Not comparisons done with butchered Phase or Hassey files in comparison.

If this helps getting some free time for Doug to run this comparison test - I fully back this idea !!!!

I would aldso like to see the Hasselblad 60MP and 50MP in this comparison then (basically all 6 micron backs - latest generation sensors).

 

[thomas]

With Capture Integration announcing that they are going to be carrying Leica now

do they? smart move.

 

[Mark Gowin]

If Capture Integration is going to start selling the Leica S2, then I think that is a validation of the S2 itself. I look forward to seeing their comparision between the Phase One and S2 systems. The CI reps have previously stated on this and other forums that they would evaluate the S2 when it becomes available and decide whether they wanted to start selling it.

Can one of the CI reps confirm whether they are going to sell the S2 and the results of their comparison? It would be good to know since there is a CI office only 2 hrs away from me.

Mark

 

[Dale Allyn]

Mark, it was announced (by Guy) during the Oregon workshop, that CI was officially adding Leica to their stable. I'm sure the M9 has something to do with this decision as well (or at least I suspect so).

To be clear, I enjoy David Farkas' enthusiastic representation of the S2 et al, but comparisons to an iffy jpeg from a P65+ is not what I'm hoping to see going forward. I'm not really indicting David, just looking forward to more people, more skilled techs working the files to show us what each can really do. It does little good to work one file with great finesse and a comparison kit with less that similar technique.

 

[Mark Gowin]

Sorry I missed Guy's announcement of Capture Integration's decision to carry Leica. Did I also miss their S2 / Phase One comparison? I ask because I really want to see other people's opion of how the S2 stacks up. I have seen only one raw file comparison between the S2 and PO P65, but it was hurried and not nearly enough to draw final conclusions - just initial impressions

Mark

 

[dougpeterson]

As announced at the workshop we met with Leica at our Atlanta office and had hands on time with the S2 and as a result of that meeting have placed our dealer-startup order with Leica.

Anyone hoping for immediate comparisons will be disappointed.

Upon public release of the system (they say firmware is final now - but there are no guarantees until the system is shipping in meaningful quantities) it will be a top priority for us to evaluate the system from top to bottom and make as many relevant comparisons as possible (not just IQ, but, for instance shooting speed while tethered) in real world situations. The sorts of shots that manufacturers release rarely include those which are difficult for the camera (e.g. mixed lighting, higher ISO, handholding, long exposures, dark subject matter in shadow with low frequency detail etc etc). In fact I still remember seeing the Nikon D3 images from the motorcycle racing at ISO25,600 which rocked my world. We also need to work out where the weaknesses in the files lay (pardon me for suggesting there could be anything but perfection :ROTFL and how to avoid them. This sort of thorough evaluation is going to take weeks to do right. Comparisons against technical cameras, Leaf, Phase, Canon, will take time. Frankly, if you don't have time to do that sort of thorough examination yourself, or to wait for others to do so on your behalf then --- well I don't know --- but you should take that time!

This will also mean learning-by-doing in regards to processing. In this regard I plan on consulting closely with this forum in an open-source sort of way to both speed the process of evaluation as well as increase the quality of that evaluation. Which raw processor will handle the files best at low ISO? at high ISO? What sharpening settings work best for it's grain structure? etc etc.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Leaf, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 *| *Cell: 740.707.2183
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[dougpeterson]

All that said... I'm *really* excited to work with this system. Good part of my job .

 

[Dale Allyn]

Mark, I don't think that there are any public comparisons yet. My hunch is that Dave Gallager made a business decision which was considerate of more than just the S2 details.

Here's the GetDPI post where Guy mentions it: http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showpost.php?p=148223&postcount=78

Edit: Doug beat me to the punch.

 

[Dale Allyn]

Doug puts a nice point on my comment regarding giving CI/Doug enough time to ramp up on the processing quirks of the S2 (or anyone else doing such work). It serves no one, least of all CI clients, to make "comparisons" between files which are not each processed to the best potential outcome. This is a major pet peeve of mine, when we see some crappy file "x" compared to a pristine file "y".

 

[Guy Mancuso]

If Capture Integration is going to start selling the Leica S2, then I think that is a validation of the S2 itself. I look forward to seeing their comparision between the Phase One and S2 systems. The CI reps have previously stated on this and other forums that they would evaluate the S2 when it becomes available and decide whether they wanted to start selling it.

Can one of the CI reps confirm whether they are going to sell the S2 and the results of their comparison? It would be good to know since there is a CI office only 2 hrs away from me.

Mark

It's a business decision for sure by Dave and one I encouraged between both parties. It adds the dealer support that will be needed for the S2. Plus it will hopefully add to the rentals in South Beach which does see a lot of fashion shoots. I gave Doug and Dave the M9 demo for the day to play with and get to know it. Hopefully I will get a S2 for review myself pretty soon here from Leica.

 

[fotografz]

As announced at the workshop we met with Leica at our Atlanta office and had hands on time with the S2 and as a result of that meeting have placed our dealer-startup order with Leica.

Anyone hoping for immediate comparisons will be disappointed.

Upon public release of the system (they say firmware is final now - but there are no guarantees until the system is shipping in meaningful quantities) it will be a top priority for us to evaluate the system from top to bottom and make as many relevant comparisons as possible (not just IQ, but, for instance shooting speed while tethered) in real world situations. The sorts of shots that manufacturers release rarely include those which are difficult for the camera (e.g. mixed lighting, higher ISO, handholding, long exposures, dark subject matter in shadow with low frequency detail etc etc). In fact I still remember seeing the Nikon D3 images from the motorcycle racing at ISO25,600 which rocked my world. We also need to work out where the weaknesses in the files lay (pardon me for suggesting there could be anything but perfection :ROTFL and how to avoid them. This sort of thorough evaluation is going to take weeks to do right. Comparisons against technical cameras, Leaf, Phase, Canon, will take time. Frankly, if you don't have time to do that sort of thorough examination yourself, or to wait for others to do so on your behalf then --- well I don't know --- but you should take that time!

This will also mean learning-by-doing in regards to processing. In this regard I plan on consulting closely with this forum in an open-source sort of way to both speed the process of evaluation as well as increase the quality of that evaluation. Which raw processor will handle the files best at low ISO? at high ISO? What sharpening settings work best for it's grain structure? etc etc.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Leaf, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 *| *Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up
RSS Feed: Subscribe

Invaluable. Absolutely invaluable.

-Marc

 

[ptomsu]

As announced at the workshop we met with Leica at our Atlanta office and had hands on time with the S2 and as a result of that meeting have placed our dealer-startup order with Leica.

Anyone hoping for immediate comparisons will be disappointed.

Upon public release of the system (they say firmware is final now - but there are no guarantees until the system is shipping in meaningful quantities) it will be a top priority for us to evaluate the system from top to bottom and make as many relevant comparisons as possible (not just IQ, but, for instance shooting speed while tethered) in real world situations. The sorts of shots that manufacturers release rarely include those which are difficult for the camera (e.g. mixed lighting, higher ISO, handholding, long exposures, dark subject matter in shadow with low frequency detail etc etc). In fact I still remember seeing the Nikon D3 images from the motorcycle racing at ISO25,600 which rocked my world. We also need to work out where the weaknesses in the files lay (pardon me for suggesting there could be anything but perfection :ROTFL and how to avoid them. This sort of thorough evaluation is going to take weeks to do right. Comparisons against technical cameras, Leaf, Phase, Canon, will take time. Frankly, if you don't have time to do that sort of thorough examination yourself, or to wait for others to do so on your behalf then --- well I don't know --- but you should take that time!

This will also mean learning-by-doing in regards to processing. In this regard I plan on consulting closely with this forum in an open-source sort of way to both speed the process of evaluation as well as increase the quality of that evaluation. Which raw processor will handle the files best at low ISO? at high ISO? What sharpening settings work best for it's grain structure? etc etc.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Leaf, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 *| *Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up
RSS Feed: Subscribe

Absolutely great news!

Whatever support (if any) you can get from us here I will be one of the first to do so

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Actually Leica called me this morning and we chatted about the workshop and also about CI which they are excited they now are a Leica dealer and going forward looks like to be a winner for both of them. They also want me very much to get a S2 in my hands soon here to do a review on it as well, like I did with the M9. One catch is getting these production units around so I will most likely get one for a day to test out and according to them the sooner the better. So hopefully soon here we can get some balanced reports out with data to help people.

 

[Mark Gowin]

Guy, I look forward to your thoughts on the S2. Hopefully, you will get to try one out soon. I predict you will really enjoy it. So far, high ISO noise is the only thing that concerns me (for how I want to use the camera) based on the little bit I have shot and seen S2 files. I expect improvements in ISO useability once the camera has been out a while and file processing is sorted out.

Mark

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Depending on your needs ISO 640 should be fine since that is pretty common with CCD and the latest 6 micron sensors. Getting to ISO 1250 will be more of the challenge given the raw processor and how it does on noise. That is something we will have to see.

 

[PeterA]

Looking forward to your 'balanced' report Guy!

 

[Mark Gowin]

Based on my limited shots at ISO 640 it looks like it will be perfectly useable for what I want. ISO 1250 is another story.

 

[ptomsu]

I would hope that the S2 will also deliver ISO 1250 with decent quality with a future FW version and better RAW profiles. This would add the additional margin to use this camera also not only for tripod landscape photography but for available light MF photography.

I am really looking forward to your test and findings Guy (and of course Doug) since I am still free to buy in whatever system which suits my needs best

 

[bradhusick]

Doug, don't forget to add "Leica" to your signature line!
Great seeing you in Oregon.
-Brad

 

[gdwhalen]

Guy, don't forget about my prediction by Christmas!!! :toocool: