The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

[fotografz]

With all other MF systems you are able to buy a new back one day and keep at least the body.
This means buying a S2 is expensive, but updating a S2 to the S3 will be even more expensive-compared to other MF-solutions.

That is fast becoming not true.

It was when multi-adaptable backs were the rule, but no longer true with any Hasselblad H platform since the backs and body are integrated and have to stay together. With Phase One the new Mamiya based bodies with improved AF are much desired ... although you don't have to upgrade your back to get the new body.

Fact is, they all drop in value like a stone as technology presses forward. So far, history has shown us that the more expensive it is, the bigger hit it takes ... the difference in price gap between the lower end backs and the ultimate backs of the same era closes considerably as new stuff hits the market.

No need to project the future IMO. The S2 is just very expensive NOW ... period.


-Marc

 

[thomas]

WRT buying a P45+ or H39 back and a used camera and 1 - 3 lenses, have checked on this and actually it is

1) not so cheap to buy used
2) you have to be lucky to get something which is still in decent condition - I could not find anything which would have suited my needs so far
3) need to be able to buy including VAT, which in many cases is not what used deals are
4) I actually would also shoot different images than just landscape of course and would use the S2 as kind of replacement for my DSLR (Sony) after some time, so the size would be great.

I can't stop telling how good the Contax system is.
You'll still find mint/new bodies and lenses. There are dealers offering cameras and lenses and they come with 1 year warranty and VAT (though a bit more expensive as used on Ebay).
The Contax is a joy to use. The system is complete incl. verticalgrip changeable finder, different screens.
As a landscape photographer you'll appreciate the outstanding Distagon 3.5/35. The 45mm is very good, the 80mm good (a bit weak wide open though even at f2 it resolves quite good at the center), the 120 macro is a dream.

 

[gdwhalen]

It keeps coming back to price doesn't it?



"Leica folk are a particular lot. In essence, they want a used Leica that's never been used, something kept in a velvet bag and used by someone wearing white cotton gloves in a hermetically sealed room. Cost per shot has to be the highest in the world. Why anyone would pay 6K for a tool and be proud to announce that it only has 359 clicks on it a few years later is beyond me."

This is, without a doubt, the best paragraph describing Leica that I have seen in awhile. It is so true and so unfortunate. :clap: :clap: :clap:

 

[Paratom]

Issue is, that if you upgrade to a top end back, this alone costs around 20-30k, so actually the camera comes for free. There is not much difference with the S2 to S3 probably.

WRT buying a P45+ or H39 back and a used camera and 1 - 3 lenses, have checked on this and actually it is

1) not so cheap to buy used
2) you have to be lucky to get something which is still in decent condition - I could not find anything which would have suited my needs so far
3) need to be able to buy including VAT, which in many cases is not what used deals are
4) I actually would also shoot different images than just landscape of course and would use the S2 as kind of replacement for my DSLR (Sony) after some time, so the size would be great.

Time will tell, maybe it will be too expensive for me anyway or maybe I will get a really good used offer for Hassi or Phase

I had an offer for a H3DII-39 with 80mm lens in very good condition for 10k € about 1 year ago when I was evaluating different backs/combos.

I am not saying the S2 is bad, I am sure it is great for some things. I just believe that it is priced pretty steep if you want to buy into it, even steeper if you want to upgrade one day , and it becomes even more expensive because there is no used market for lenses today.
And its still the medium format system with the smallest sensor of the whole bunch.
For some people this might be the best tool , or they just want it and the price might not be the problem, or it may have paid off after doing the first job.

 

[PeterA]

23K $US for a 40 megapixel chip and a body attached to it - is the way I would look at the 'price' tag. Most people dont use their digi backs OFF their camera bodies anyway - just look at the relatively few forum posters on here that do.

No it isnt the body with chip built in price that concerns me OR price - it is the lens design and image circle which is limited to a particular chip size - I am not sure that Leica haven't boxed themselves into a limited surface area as far as capture medium goes.

For me it is always abotu quality of glass hanging off teh capture medium that counts. Paying up for a the S2 lenses and then finding out that they cant keep up with the newest technology over teh next decade - that would be buyer regret.

 

[jonoslack]

It keeps coming back to price doesn't it?



"Leica folk are a particular lot. In essence, they want a used Leica that's never been used, something kept in a velvet bag and used by someone wearing white cotton gloves in a hermetically sealed room. Cost per shot has to be the highest in the world. Why anyone would pay 6K for a tool and be proud to announce that it only has 359 clicks on it a few years later is beyond me."

This is, without a doubt, the best paragraph describing Leica that I have seen in awhile. It is so true and so unfortunate. :clap: :clap: :clap:

:ROTFL:
Well - I only came to leica recently, and my first trip to a leica store made me think that their camera finish must be indestructable . . . later I realised that those cameras had simply not been used!

On the other hand - I recently sold my black chrome M8 (actually, a grey chrome M8 as the black had worn down to the nickel with use). It was upgraded, so the shutter was new, but the guy who bought it was really happy to get the camera he wanted, and actually said that he like the way it looked like a 'real' camera.

So everybody doesn't feel the same way.

 

[ptomsu]

When I asked my Hasselblad dealer for used H3D2 and 39MP back, there was actually pretty clear from his answer that this was happening very very seldom, especially if one looks for good condition. Well you can get a camera/back with 50k shots for a good price, but I would not go for this, as I am not liking trouble from the beginning.

I also have certain restrictions put in place for myself, as I will not go for any "dead" system like Contax (I sold a C system 8 years ago) - not because it might not be good, but because I want same latest technology when I step back into digital MF photography.

So there remain 23 systems - Phase, Hasselblad and S.

Actually the best price/performance ratio might be a H3D2/50 which comes for €21.600.- incl. VAT, has the latest chip generation is a mature back and is almost 645 full frame. And one gets a free upgrade to the H4D if you buy this in 2009.

And BTW I am still on the list for a good used H3D2/39, but so far nothing popped up.

As I said I am open and flexible within the restrictions I put up as important for me, so I will see what comes in the next 3-4 months.

 

[Dale Allyn]

snip...
WRT buying a P45+ or H39 back and a used camera and 1 - 3 lenses, have checked on this and actually it is

1) not so cheap to buy used
2) you have to be lucky to get something which is still in decent condition - I could not find anything which would have suited my needs so far
3) need to be able to buy including VAT, which in many cases is not what used deals are
4) I actually would also shoot different images than just landscape of course and would use the S2 as kind of replacement for my DSLR (Sony) after some time, so the size would be great.

Time will tell, maybe it will be too expensive for me anyway or maybe I will get a really good used offer for Hassi or Phase

This could be expensive logic. If one really wants to put a kit together, a used Phase/Mamiya kit can be assembled very reasonably for landscape with some other subject material salted in. With landscape one doesn't need the fastest lenses, zero shutter lag, fast auto focus, etc. In fact, those features will seldom even be used.

An AFD II, or AFD III can be purchased very cheaply, and soon the AFD III/Phase body will be even cheaper with the new body coming. Mamiya lenses can be purchased used in pristine conditions as well, and one can buy "D" versions, or previous generation lenses really cheaply. I bought all of my Mamiya lenses (35mm to 210mm + 120mm "D") for a total of about $3,500. That's six lenses as the 80 was supplied with the body to make seven. Add a back of your choice and you're out shooting.

I shoot mostly landscape and the kit is great for that, but I do some portrait stuff when asked, some personal stuff that is not landscape, and some product, and I have never found the kit to be the limiting factor. Now I'm not saying that shooting runway models or events that this is the kit, but just saying that one could easily overspend on features if shooting mostly landscape and similar material.

I am in no way suggesting that the S2 is wrong, or a bad choice, etc. I agree with what PeterA has posted above, and I also know that many will buy the S2 for reasons that don't matter to working pros. And of course, the S2 may be the perfect solution for some pros as well. In fact, I could see it handling my landscape stuff really well as well, especially with the weather sealing, and robust construction. My point was simply like others have mentioned, that one can get out there and make some great images in MF for an amazingly small price if they're not caught up with the need for "latest/greatest". In fact, I'm pricing some Canon gear to sell, and the lens values are way higher than my Mamiya kit.

Cheers

 

[ptomsu]

Dale,

thanks for your motivation - I really appreciate and would be happy to find a reasonably cheaper but used kit from Phase.

End of the day I want to keep costs down as much as possible.

My minimum requirements are a back in the range of 40MP and 3 lenses from 28 - 80 - 150. Similar for Hasselblad.

 

[John Black]

If you really want to keep the budget in check, a Mamiya 35mm AF F3.5 is ~$650 USD and found my copy to be very good. Likewise, the original 80mm F2.8 AF is ~$125 and the 150mm F3.5 AF is ~$250. For about $10k USD that kit can be matched with a 64AFDII and P30+. Add another $1000 or so for odds and ends. It's not 40 MP, but it's much lighter on the wallet.

 

[thomas]

My minimum requirements are a back in the range of 40MP and 3 lenses from 28 - 80 - 150. Similar for Hasselblad.

+ faster computer
+ storage
+ portable storage
+ notebook
+ cf cards
+ new cases / backpacks
+ new tripod
+ new tridop heads
+ new clamps
+
+
+
+
+ new credit card

 

[fotografz]

When I asked my Hasselblad dealer for used H3D2 and 39MP back, there was actually pretty clear from his answer that this was happening very very seldom, especially if one looks for good condition. Well you can get a camera/back with 50k shots for a good price, but I would not go for this, as I am not liking trouble from the beginning.

I also have certain restrictions put in place for myself, as I will not go for any "dead" system like Contax (I sold a C system 8 years ago) - not because it might not be good, but because I want same latest technology when I step back into digital MF photography.

So there remain 23 systems - Phase, Hasselblad and S.

Actually the best price/performance ratio might be a H3D2/50 which comes for €21.600.- incl. VAT, has the latest chip generation is a mature back and is almost 645 full frame. And one gets a free upgrade to the H4D if you buy this in 2009.

And BTW I am still on the list for a good used H3D2/39, but so far nothing popped up.

As I said I am open and flexible within the restrictions I put up as important for me, so I will see what comes in the next 3-4 months.

You can't have been looking very hard since a number of them have been offer right here on this forum ... including mine.

But now Hasselblad has offered a trade in promotion that makes selling one not a smart move.

 

[ptomsu]

You can't have been looking very hard since a number of them have been offer right here on this forum ... including mine.

But now Hasselblad has offered a trade in promotion that makes selling one not a smart move.

Well, I have been looking, issue is that I am here in Europe and this makes all things a bit more complicated once you start trading with US. Especially if I want to depreciate the system costs from my local tax over the next few years.

I know that the Hasselblad trade in offer is pretty good.

 

[ptomsu]

If you really want to keep the budget in check, a Mamiya 35mm AF F3.5 is ~$650 USD and found my copy to be very good. Likewise, the original 80mm F2.8 AF is ~$125 and the 150mm F3.5 AF is ~$250. For about $10k USD that kit can be matched with a 64AFDII and P30+. Add another $1000 or so for odds and ends. It's not 40 MP, but it's much lighter on the wallet.

As long as you stay around 30MP then it is getting cheaper I know. But I kind of found that 40MP is my limit.

I am sure it will not take too long and 40MP will be in a similar price range than 30MP today.

 

[ptomsu]

You can't have been looking very hard since a number of them have been offer right here on this forum ... including mine.

But now Hasselblad has offered a trade in promotion that makes selling one not a smart move.

Need to answer now after looking pretty hard - only Jack is selling his 2.8/150D currently (not sure if still available) - but what would I do with just a lens?

No camera, no back for Phase etc.

So this might only work very occasionally

 

[Paratom]

Peter,
I dont know if the market has changed that much, but when I was looking for a system one year ago nearly each brand could officially offer me some contacs to people who wanted to sell their MF systems.
There were at least 2 Hassy 39, Phase offered some refurbished backs and a body for low money, used Mamiya lenses I found here for good price (fotopartner.de) - you also find there many Hassy lenses.
Additionally there is frequently MF gear listed here and on L.Landscape.
Plus there is ebay.
I myself still own some Mamiya lenses which I would like to sell (45,55,150,300APO) so if any is of interest for you let me know.
Frankly if you really want to find used gear and give it some time and be a little patient I am sure you will find what you are looking for.

 

[gogopix]

I can't stop telling how good the Contax system is.
You'll still find mint/new bodies and lenses. There are dealers offering cameras and lenses and they come with 1 year warranty and VAT (though a bit more expensive as used on Ebay).
The Contax is a joy to use. The system is complete incl. verticalgrip changeable finder, different screens.
As a landscape photographer you'll appreciate the outstanding Distagon 3.5/35. The 45mm is very good, the 80mm good (a bit weak wide open though even at f2 it resolves quite good at the center), the 120 macro is a dream.

Yes, and there are people on the forum in the past year who have made the decision to buy into Contax, and are very happy.

Seems that doesn't make good press. Most here have Mamyia or Hassey and it is understandable that they are not going to comment favorably on a 'dead' system.

It is interesting that, for all its 'deadness', I have an AF top quality Zeiss designed lense system, with 60 MP soon to get live view. I haven't had a failure in 2 systems for 6-7 years.

But why do we Contax users persist in even mentioning it? We KNOW we are going to get slammed here by somebody :deadhorse:



Victor

 

[stephengilbert]

I have no interest in this "fight," but it seems to me that there are some people who don't want to buy into a "dead system," i.e., one that will not grow or be improved or officially supported. I don't agree with that view, but wouldn't call the comments of the people who ascribe to it "slamming." It's just a difference of opinion. The "slammers" are entitled to their view; they're wrong, but entitled to be so. :angel:

Imagine what a great job Ansel Adams could have done if he had access to autofocus.

 

[carstenw]

I think Ansel Adams' photos wouldn't have been much different; that guy knew where he wanted everything. It might have made a difference for someone like HCB, but then again, when you look at where the subject is in his frames, it might not have been a change for the better.

Anyway, I agree with your "slamming" comments. I don't think that it is invalid to choose not to buy Contax because the system is no longer being developed ("dead" is a bit exaggerated, since you can still buy new and still get service, where other system can neither be bought new nor repaired). It is, however, a really nice system, with slow, if accurate AF, and some really great lenses. I am very happy to have bought into it, personally.

 

[gogopix]

what fight?:angel:

hell, even Michael Reichman slammed the Hassey 110 that fell apart in his hands. Comes with the territory...

All's fair with love, war and 'gear sluts'



Victor