The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

[ptomsu]

Hi Guy
I hope you'll be using the LR3 beta as well - it seems to have a pretty radically improved processing engine, which is not yet reflected in the ACR releases (and after all, that's what the camera ships with!). I know you guys don't use Aperture, but I'd like to see what happens there as well.

LJ
I would have thought that one of the good things about the S2 is that in producing generic DNG files they will be immediately supported in so many different programs, rather than being tied to proprietary software (however good that may be).

all the best

In principal all you say is right - but this is theory and praxis differs unfortunately.

My experiences with DNG are that all the RAW converters (LR, Aperture, C1 Pro) are so much different and they all produce significantly different results. The worst is that this starts already how the interpret neighbor pixels and put these together to structures, which result in some form of artifacts or microstructures. For example I liked these more in C1 Pro than in LR3 for the S2 DNGs I have seen so far. And the strange thing is, that C1 Pro does not even have a S2 profile so far but obviously uses the standard DNG engine it has implemented.

So while this open DNG is something great in theory, I think finally it is not delivering the results of vendor specific RAW converters - unfortunately.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

BTW: I see that Mediafire now offers 200MB/file for free.

If your .me account process is a hassle, Guy, I'm happy to host them if needed.

Thanks Dale we are checking with Andy right now to set something up.Let's see if that goes okay

 

[dfarkas]

I think Bob would be fine with it (I know I would be) if the raws were available, or the the "generic conversion" JPG (even in low res) was provided.

I don't buy cameras based on PP manipulated images from them.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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For me, personally, I'm more concerned with the end result. Can I get what I want from a camera and associated workflow in a simple and straightforward way? The adjustment brush in LR took all of 30 seconds for me to apply. This wasn't slaved over in CS4 for hours (as I know many will do for final work to be printed large).

Perhaps in your comparisons with other MF systems, you may wish to turn off lens corrections, DAC, etc. in order to take PP out of the equation... or is that "acceptable" post processing?

I think it is important to keep in mind that the files presented in my blog are from a pre-production camera and early firmware (as stated at the start of my review). They were processed with no camera profile in LR. I process my pictures to my taste, as we all do. They were compressed slightly (to save bandwidth) at about 85% quality. No, the onscreen images on a web browser do not look as good as the DNG files in LR on my computer. And, to address an earlier question of sharpening, I applied pretty much the same amount to every file (amount=48, radius=0.5, detail=35, masking=18). If you are familiar with LR, these are extremely low, especially the radius. I purposely didn't apply much sharpening.

If anyone would like to see the DNGs, they are more than welcome to come to my office and see them in my computer (where they must stay as part of my agreement with Leica, which was also stated in my review).

I will be posting a follow-up report from PhotoPlus shortly, where I was able to shoot with the production model S2. I'll talk more about the differences between the pre-production and production cameras, with regards to both hardware and firmware.

Then, of course, we will have the production S2 for a hands-on studio shoot on Friday, Nov 20th in the Ft. Lauderdale/Miami area. Similar to the event in NYC, all attendees will be able to shoot the camera for themselves and keep the RAW files.

David

 

[dougpeterson]

For me, personally, I'm more concerned with the end result. Can I get what I want from a camera and associated workflow in a simple and straightforward way? The adjustment brush in LR took all of 30 seconds for me to apply. This wasn't slaved over in CS4 for hours (as I know many will do for final work to be printed large).

Couldn't agree more than for any given person the only thing that matters is their final result. The difficulty arises when you're trying to translate your post processing for someone else's evaluation. This is nearly impossible even for the best "tester" but it becomes even harder when you can't share RAWs so that others can run through THEIR post processing techniques and preferences and see where their final results fall.

You were restrained by your deal with Leica so my comment wasn't a dig or an implication. I understand this was a limitation that was placed on you.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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[PeterA]

Oh i am so looking forward to all the "real world" indiustrial quality definately absolutely microscoped results and reviews coming - thanks Guys!!

Still my real world may be different to yours - how does it look sitting next to me in one of my Porshes or my new little shopping trollyey the R8?

Will Luigi bring out a nice custom leather case for the S2? Perhaps a special S2 Luigi version camera strap as well?

So many critical questions yet to be even adressed - all this pixel peeping stiuff and not a thought as to the fashionability issues....

Not ONE dog or CAT shot in the whole series so far - please genetlemen understand the likely content of useage and take into account the intended audience.

 

[Jack]

Peter,

We'll do a dentist-style-Leica-usage series just for you... Of course that means we won't actually take any images with it, but will be sure to sit it prominently on the table when we hit the restaurant for lunch, during which time we will pay particular attention to the quantity of oohs and ahhhs of the other patrons! :ROTFL:

 

[Bob]

Peter,

We'll do a dentist-style-Leica-usage series just for you... Of course that means we won't actually take any images with it, but will be sure to sit it prominently on the table when we hit the restaurant for lunch, during which time we will pay particular attention to the quantity of oohs and ahhhs of the other patrons! :ROTFL:

Jack,
Don't forget that when someone asks to mention that Seal likes it very much.
-bob

 

[Mark Gowin]

I for one expect a reviewer to process their photographs in a manner they prefer. I don't know how else they could do it. David did disclose his processing preferences (e.g., a little snap and punch) in his review so at least the reader has an idea of the bias. I have seen very few reviews where raw files were made available for download most of the time the reader has to rely on the processed photos included in the review. Thankfully, Guy is good about making raw files available in his reviews.

I posted some S2 dng files a couple weeks ago for folks to download, but the download limit was hit in a few days. I will give Mediafire a try.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Oh i am so looking forward to all the "real world" indiustrial quality definately absolutely microscoped results and reviews coming - thanks Guys!!

Still my real world may be different to yours - how does it look sitting next to me in one of my Porshes or my new little shopping trollyey the R8?

Will Luigi bring out a nice custom leather case for the S2? Perhaps a special S2 Luigi version camera strap as well?

So many critical questions yet to be even adressed - all this pixel peeping stiuff and not a thought as to the fashionability issues....

Not ONE dog or CAT shot in the whole series so far - please genetlemen understand the likely content of useage and take into account the intended audience.

I think I have some really special filters for you to buy. Rose colored :ROTFL::ROTFL::ROTFL:

 

[PeterA]

Ok laugh away - ignore the needs of the real targert market...-

More seriously - I'd like to hear your views on can I hand hold the thing easier than the other things I own...-


please check autofocus speed/battery life/LCD screen useability
fascinated to hear wht you guys think of the lenses - especially any wide you get to use.

Give me the go ahead on these matters and I am ready to go.

 

[ptomsu]

Folks,

really waiting for your thoughts and observations on the S System - and this will be definitely a very valuable input for many of us!

Bottom line is that one has to test and feel himself in order to make a final conclusion and decision. I often found observations of others really not matching my own observations and in most cases also not my needs which are resulting from my style.

Having said that in the end of the day everyone has to draw his own and personal final conclusions.

 

[Bob]

Personally, I think it would be risky for anyone to buy into a system like that without a test drive.
Would you buy a car of the same value without at least taking it around the block?
-bob

 

[tjv]

There are some unscientific test images over on the S2 part of LUF. Seems (although it's tight and really not a great methodology) in that battle, the S2 is a little better at 100% than a P45+.

 

[Christopher]

better ? That probably depends on the viewer, I think all 100% crops look a lot more digital than anything I have seen of my P45 or P65. However it could be something about raw conversion.

 

[thomas]

yes, forget them. they look soft (both the p45 and the s2)

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Ok laugh away - ignore the needs of the real targert market...-

More seriously - I'd like to hear your views on can I hand hold the thing easier than the other things I own...-


please check autofocus speed/battery life/LCD screen useability
fascinated to hear wht you guys think of the lenses - especially any wide you get to use.

Give me the go ahead on these matters and I am ready to go.

You should be able to get 1/60 but something we will try for sure. As far as holding it DSLR styles like this are easier but again these lenses are not that light either. The 70mm is a pretty damn big lens compared to the Phase 80 and even the Hassy 80 . I think it is a 82 filter size but I need to check all these specs out again so i have them for the review.

 

[Bob]

For some, a heavier camera allows shooting at slower speeds due to the camera's mass uo to the point where muscle tremor begins.
-bob

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Exactly Bob I actually can squeeze 1/45 out of my Phase body but you need to be on your game too. I should add with a 45 and 80 mm lens the 150 I need to be at 1/90 minimum. Many times when I get this low I readjust my left hand and actually have palm face up and elbow tucked into the body to form a tripod base but again this takes practice and a pretty strong shake free arm. Many times and I highly recommend this for MF shooters regardless of body is grab a monopod.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Here I am on the very edge of a winner or loser ISO 800 at 1/60 3.4 with the 150mm. Now before I even looked at the LCD after the shot I went in and grabbed the Metz flash. I really had no hope for this one but got extremely lucky. I don't recommend going this low with a 150mm

 

[PeterA]

Personally, I think it would be risky for anyone to buy into a system like that without a test drive.
Would you buy a car of the same value without at least taking it around the block?
-bob

My thinking ( FWIW)

If Leica tell me that the best lenses they have ever made are for the S2 - this is a big statement. If a few selected people who understand lens quality verify this statement - benchmarked against M lenses they own and use for example or MF glass they own and use that is good enough for me - first tick

The camera body is already superior in terms of ergonomics and other features - to any of the systems currently out there ( I own and use Contax/Blad V and H, RZ and Hy6 so I am very familiar with MF ergonomics or lack thereof - second tick.

If the IQ is as good as a 33-40 megapixel offering from Sinar/Hasselblad/Phase/Leaf - well thats the third tick. ( I really dont need 50 or 60 megapixels - in fact for most purposes I prefer less megapixels - around 40 is more than plenty.

All I need is some verification of the quality of the 35mm wide this will see me go 35/70/180 as starting line-up.

Someone in the USof A is going to be doing a big load of business with me on this issue of rejigging and finalising my end kit.

I will end up shooting with an M8/M9 for travel/ an S2 for my SLR needs and an arTec for pano/landscape and architecture shots. Great as the Phamiya/Hasselblad systems are ( not to mention RZ) - I really dont use them as much as I should - therefore they will all probably go.

if I can actually test one here in Australia - that would be great- however I have heard on the grapevine who the dealer is going to be - and they have an ice cubes chance in hell of ever doing business with me again - leica have been very veery foolish in their choice of dealer here - they may have turned their backs on a range of dealers who have a very loyal customer base - this is going to cost them a lot in lost sales in Australia - but that is another story.

Pete