The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

[Guy Mancuso]

One issue I see going in here is the look of the glass. Basically all these S lenses will look the same since they are coming from the same mold essentially. R and M have a variety of looks like the Lux, Crons and some of the older glass. Even Hassy and Mamiya have some older lenses that have certain looks like the 110 for example. As good as this glass maybe it may very well be very sterile as well or what we call clinical in look. Not that this maybe a bad thing overall just leaves less choice and part of my concern every lens will look identical in look. Now I hear and and not positive that maybe bolting on V glass is a possibility which does several things one is get people in the door easier with regards to money if they have someV glass already but it will also give you a chance to get a different look . I personally have not heard any confirmation of this and will ask Leica when they are here in Phoenix but that would give you some options. i like options and this system is limited right out of the gate since it has no history like the R or M that you can fall back on.

No I know I am going to here they are molded after certain lenses but that maybe just design or number of elements . Let's face it new glass being molded here and the formula is most likely the same and not the formula from from several years ago like a Lux for example. Now Leica did do a nice job on the new M lux 24mm so hard to say until we get these in the field and see what looks is coming from them.

 

[Bob]

Guy,
A touch of some crocus cloth to those S lenses and I am sure that you can cause a different look.
OTOH clinical is a good place to start.
what would you expect from a self-respecting German camera manufacturer, romantic?
Definition of European Heaven:
The Police are all British,
The Chefs are French,
The Lovers are Italian,
It is organized by the Swiss,
and the Germans make the cameras

In Hell, on the other hand...
The Police are all German,
The Chefs are British,
The Lovers are Swiss,
It is organized by the Italians,
the French make the cameras
And it is debated endlessly in the EU Parliament as to who has the right to do what :ROTFL:
-bob

 

[David K]

Bob, never heard that one before but it is hysterical

 

[Guy Mancuso]

That is great. Glad the Italians run hell, it would really be bad if they did not. LOL

 

[ptomsu]

Bob,

this kind of reflects reality anyway pretty good! :clap::clap::clap:

 

[Jack]

My thinking ( FWIW)

If Leica tell me that the best lenses they have ever made are for the S2 - this is a big statement. If a few selected people who understand lens quality verify this statement - benchmarked against M lenses they own and use for example or MF glass they own and use that is good enough for me - first tick

The camera body is already superior in terms of ergonomics and other features - to any of the systems currently out there ( I own and use Contax/Blad V and H, RZ and Hy6 so I am very familiar with MF ergonomics or lack thereof - second tick.

If the IQ is as good as a 33-40 megapixel offering from Sinar/Hasselblad/Phase/Leaf - well thats the third tick. ( I really dont need 50 or 60 megapixels - in fact for most purposes I prefer less megapixels - around 40 is more than plenty.

Pete,

I suspect you can tick item one off right now as I have very little doubt the lenses will be exceptional. Bottom line is even many of my Mamiya lenses are "better than the sensor," along with Schneider and Rodenstock are already meeting or exceeding that level of glass production, so I'd expect no less from Leica.

Re item 2, ergos. We've seen the pictures of the body next to other cameras we've used, we've used the R9/DMR and the S2 appears cast in the same mold, adding automated features; which is to say it appears a great design. Basically we have a conventional DSLR form-factor with an MF sensor. I'm pretty confident you can tick this one off now too.

UI is part of ergos and while this is still somewhat unknown, it appears from reviews like David's that the UI is logical and simple, so not going to be a huge concern for me either --- so I tic this one off too.

IQ however is the remaining question for me. And here I'm not talking about total pixel count or even superior detail, but rather the entire package; file detail/resolution, dynamic range, noise, color tonality and smoothness.

Bottom line is if the S2 hits a grand slam with IQ, the camera is a winner at the platinum/onyx level --- and I for one actually expect it will hit the grand slam.

But there is where *I* hit the two real problems for me: system depth/flexibility and cost. Speaking for myself only, even if I love everything about it, I already know I cannot justify switching to the narrower, less adaptable system, and I know I cannot afford one even if I could get my arms around that depth/flexibility issue --- which is a major bummer for me.

 

[ptomsu]

PeterA

I do not have so much experience as you with different MF systems although I have some to know how bulky current offerings are - all of them.

Hasselbald and Phase are no exception and the S2 can only win against them in terms of ergonomics.

I will have a number of landscape shootings next year, some in very humid and rainy places, so the S System would be just right.

WRT the IQ of the S System - I am pretty serious that it will outperform any of the existing 40MP backs, because of the fine handling of data which Leica implemented (I trust Germans ) and also of course because of the glass itself.

And for landscape work 40MP are more than sufficient, as I see every day in my exhibition of fine art prints, where lot of them were made with P40+ and P45+. You do not even notice any difference to the P65+ shoots when you compare them side by side. So I would have to enlarge MUCH, MUCH more in order to notice any differences. Not up to 40"x60" - no way! And i will not go larger except Panos and these I compose out of 3 - 5 (or more) 40MP shots.

Same lineup for me initially would be 35, 70, 180 as basic startup system. Later add the 30-90 and maybe the macro and a longer tele - say 300 or whatever they come up with.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

I'm a tougher sell and maybe reason Leica is hand delivering one to me to test. I am brutal on this stuff but someone has to be. I love leica's but I am not buying labels here, it's all about system wide quality, compatibility and functionality. Bottom line for me is will it knock me off my chair. If it don't than I will just stay with what I have which I like very much but to jump to the S2 it will take a LOT of convincing. Reason we want to run this through hell first. You folks get to benefit from that.

 

[ptomsu]

But there is where *I* hit the two real problems for me: system depth/flexibility and cost. Speaking for myself only, even if I love everything about it, I already know I cannot justify switching to the narrower, less adaptable system, and I know I cannot afford one even if I could get my arms around that depth/flexibility issue --- which is a major bummer for me.

Jack, you do the wrong conclusions here. Why not have the S System as the universal MF system for maybe 80-90% of what you need and keep just you P45+ back and go for a tech camera with some great glass. Why would that limit flexibility, I think it would rather improve it!

And if I remember right you still have your Canon DSLR system for whatever "low end" shooting - apologize this expression

For me the longer I look into the whole picture the combination of Alpha900 DSLR system, M9 as point and shoot and S2 as high end (MF or whatever you call it) system seems to become the killer combination. And I would be flexible as well as I could get an additional P45+ (used) or H39 (used) and a tech camera if I really needed this. And on the Alpha side I am pretty confident I can buy the A1R or however they call their next pro model for a bargain compared to Nikon and Canon pro cameras.

So I seem to have found heaven - please do not tell me where I am wrong

 

[ptomsu]

I'm a tougher sell and maybe reason Leica is hand delivering one to me to test. I am brutal on this stuff but someone has to be. I love leica's but I am not buying labels here, it's all about system wide quality, compatibility and functionality. Bottom line for me is will it knock me off my chair. If it don't than I will just stay with what I have which I like very much but to jump to the S2 it will take a LOT of convincing. Reason we want to run this through hell first. You folks get to benefit from that.

Should we bet it will knock you off your chair like an explosion

 

[LJL]

I think Jack's points are spot on. Even if the S2 clears all the technical and image hurdles for most uses, it still faces that cost issue. Just how much better or not the S2 is against other comparable offerings will be the calculation individuals will have to make. Presently, the cost structure seems difficult for some (many?) to justify, with or without the system fullness or adaptability. For the folks that may not be as concerned with the cost structure, that may not matter. On the grander scheme it may however. If folks do not buy into the S2 system sufficiently, will it survive? It was mentioned that this may become a situation similar to the R9/DMR. On paper, it looked to be head and shoulder above other offerings (excepting AF and a few other things). The images were impressive, some think better than anything else offered at that time. It should have been a runaway hit with many more folks than it ever turned out to be. Enough folks were just not willing to spend that much more to maybe not get that much more compared to other offerings and future developments. We do not yet know how the S2 will fit into its niche. It may be the sexiest handling MF thing ever, and the images may be really great, which many expect them to be. The issue will still be if folks are willing to spend a king's ransom (for some) to get any real differences over what is now known in the market? We know some folks will buy into the S2 system. Will enough be comfortable spending that much to sustain the system long enough to fully develop? We do not yet know that answer.

Not really trying to dampen the enthusiasm for the S2. Just getting back to the one thing that does not seem to be changing.....cost structure. Now, if Leica rethinks that part and maybe brings the prices more into line with the competition and target market it is claiming to be aiming for, we could see a lot more takers. That could be the game changer.

LJ

 

[Guy Mancuso]

I would not bet. Tough critic here. I know it will do exceptional well that part is easy to figure out . The real question is how much better overall than what exists today and that comes in many forms. Some of that will not matter for a second for some folks but some will really matter on certain area's. Many things to consider here and really have not seen anything to convince me YET.

 

[ptomsu]

LJ

comparing prices I actually do not see much difference, except to some really older designs from Hasselblad maybe. And if it comes down to lenses, well you have to spend a similar amount on Hassi, Phase and Leica if you want to buy.

And to be very honest, at a price level like this I am not sure why to care to much to spend some 4-5k more for a system, where one can get European quality lenses and not something designed and developed in Japan. For me this would be an ice breaker for sure, given IQ is on par with the other systems. But I actually have the feeling that IQ is better which we will see soon.

Just looking into some of the images at Dpreview (I know these are only JPEGs) the quality is amazing and the lenses draw so perfect as not many others can. Especially I like the 180!

 

[Jack]

Jack, you do the wrong conclusions here. Why not have the S System as the universal MF system for maybe 80-90% of what you need and keep just you P45+ back and go for a tech camera with some great glass. Why would that limit flexibility, I think it would rather improve it!

Hi Peter,

Did you read the part where *I* cannot afford it, let alone both systems? . Maybe I should clarify, and again this is only regarding me personally and I realize others are in different situations:

Personally, I would not be able to justify the expense for a complete S2 system even if I sold my entire Phase-Mamiya outfit. The loss in flexibility of NOT being able to attach my back to a tech camera combined with the S2's relatively spartan lens line-up at this time would restrict my current shooting style and options. Thus, the S2 system as it presently exists does not bring enough additional to the table to be a serious consideration for me, at least at this moment in time.

Cheers,

 

[David K]

LJ,

I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for Leica to lower prices To the contrary, with the dollar where it is (and looks like it's heading) I won't be surprised to see a significant increase in prices... at least here in the US.

 

[LJL]

Peter,
I understand most of your logic, I think. If the S2 is the system for you at whatever price, then by all means, go for it. On the other hand, we still do not know how the Leica glass compares to some other things, so saying it is the best may be premature when you do factor in other things. For example, if one shoots wide open mostly, the Leica glass may be a grand performer. We still have not seen any side by side comparable tests to know this. If one shoots a lot of landscape and other things at much smaller apertures, like f8-11, I do think most would be hard pressed to tell the difference among a lot of lenses. Yes, there will be some differences for sure, but they may not be that remarkable. Factor in the cost of the Leica glass, and it quickly becomes apparent that shooting smaller apertures may be costing you a whole lot more in the S2 system, with maybe no real differences.

What I think will be interesting is to see just how the Leica 180/3.5 stacks up to something like the Mamiya 150/2.8 both shot wide open and stopped down a stop or so. The price differential is substantial. Will the image quality be so markedly different? We will soon know, but I am not betting on seeing all that much difference, and when you get down to f8-11, there may be none. As I said, it is an individual's call. I am less swayed by all the "European build" point. There are quite stellar optics coming from Japan also. Depends on how you use things and how much you care to afford to pay. Personally, I think anybody spending $5-7K for a lens that they will most likely be shooting at f11 is wasting money, unless it is some specialty lens. That is my opinion, and you and others may differ. The point being right now is that with the S2, you have no choices but the new, and very expensive Leica lenses. That does impact overall costs for putting together a system, as well as how complete that system may be for one's needs. Over time, we should see the Leica system filled out, but if you needed/wanted to shoot with something like a 30-90 zoom, you have to wait at least a year for that from Leica, and maybe pay $10k or more. No other options right now.

Again, your needs are your needs, Peter, and if you are already convinced the S2 is the perfect camera for you, by all means, get it and enjoy it. For the rest of us that are yet to be convinced, there are lots of things to consider, both near term and longer term.

LJ

 

[ptomsu]

Did you read the part where *I* cannot afford it, let alone both systems? Maybe I should clarify, and again this is only regarding me personally and I realize others are in different situations:

I would not be able to justify the expense for a complete S2 system even if I sold my entire Phase-Mamiya outfit. The loss in flexibility of NOT being able to attach my back to a tech camera combined with the S2's relatively spartan lens line-up at this time would restrict my current shooting style and options. Thus, the S2 system as it presently exists does not bring enough additional to the table at this time to be a serious consideration for me.

,

Understand that of course and the price tag is high admittedly!

But if you start from scratch and can survive with an S2 System, then the price is not really higher than for Hassi or Phase.

What I am interested is ho far the S2 images can hold up against higher res backs with non Leica glass. This is one of the key claims of Leica for their S System and so I would really like t understand if it is true.

But maybe you get so much attracted by the tests that you have to jump into the S System

 

[LJL]

LJ,

I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for Leica to lower prices To the contrary, with the dollar where it is (and looks like it's heading) I won't be surprised to see a significant increase in prices... at least here in the US.

David,
I am not holding my breath on Leica lowering prices. I keep mentioning it as it seems like the strategy they should be employing to fit the market segment they have claimed to be targeting. We all recognize that target market may not be their real goals, but we shall have to see how that turns out.

LJ

 

[carstenw]

Peter, part of the price differential lies in the fact that hardly anyone buys an entirely new Phamiya/Hasselblad system any more. Maybe the body/sensor, but there are many good deals on used lenses out there, so the Leica looks a lot more expensive, where maybe it is not quite such a difference. Once the Leica has been in the market for a few years, one could buy a new body and a couple of second-hand lenses, and then it starts to make more sense for regular folk, if you can call us that

 

[ptomsu]

Did you read the part where *I* cannot afford it, let alone both systems? Maybe I should clarify, and again this is only regarding me personally and I realize others are in different situations:

I would not be able to justify the expense for a complete S2 system even if I sold my entire Phase-Mamiya outfit. The loss in flexibility of NOT being able to attach my back to a tech camera combined with the S2's relatively spartan lens line-up at this time would restrict my current shooting style and options. Thus, the S2 system as it presently exists does not bring enough additional to the table at this time to be a serious consideration for me.

,

Understand that of course and the price tag is high admittedly!

But if you start from scratch and can survive with an S2 System, then the price is not really higher than for Hassi or Phase.

What I am interested is ho far the S2 images can hold up against higher res backs with non Leica glass. This is one of the key claims of Leica for their S System and so I would really like t understand if it is true.

But maybe you get so much attracted by the tests that you have to jump into the S System