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The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

ptomsu

Workshop Member
Peter, part of the price differential lies in the fact that hardly anyone buys an entirely new Phamiya/Hasselblad system any more. Maybe the body/sensor, but there are many good deals on used lenses out there, so the Leica looks a lot more expensive, where maybe it is not quite such a difference. Once the Leica has been in the market for a few years, one could buy a new body and a couple of second-hand lenses, and then it starts to make more sense for regular folk, if you can call us that :)
Well, I have to count myself also as regular in that respects ;)

Anyway if you have nothing invested today and you can choose from the green lawn then the picture is a slightly different one.

Used lenses are great, issue is if you really can get the ones you need at the time you want to buy. And this does not happen too often. Sure you can safe money here and everybody would be a fool not to do so, but if you compare with the complete investment of say between 20-30k$ (or even higher) then the saving of say 3-5k is kind of becoming much less important.

If you have already a system and would need to sell this in order to buy into a new system, then it becomes much harder of course. And more "expensive".

But I cannot help myself that I am getting more and more fascinated with the simplicity and ergonomics and assumed quality of the S System - as you can see from my change of mind :)
 

Bob

Administrator
Staff member
Should I post a WTB for the S2? Is it too soon?
Maybe I could by a demo or a factory second?
At useful depreciation rates and what I am getting from it maybe I should wait for th S3?

My expectations are high for sure, but for me to jump *right now* are imposible pretty much for the reasons that Jack enumerated.
"too little delta quality for too much delta money"
Now the point of starting from scratch might have some validity, but the system is still pretty narrow.
Now if somebody made a Mamiya and Hassy to S2 adapter that worked well, if possible, that might change the dynamics a bit.
-bob
 
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markowich

New member
from what i have seen so far (including DNGs) i have no reason to conclude the the IQ coming from the S2 will beat my H3DII 50 or my P65 mounted on alpa with rodenstock and schneider lenses. it certainly beats them in handling and probably also in weight, which are by no means small issues. however, i do not see myself give up on the resolution advantages of my present systems. now if it had usable iso 1250, this would change the situation. then i might also be able to leave my D3x at home...but i really doubt it. iso 1250 on the M9 is already way too poor for my taste.
so all in all, the S2 will be an ultrasexy, ultra-expensive medium resolution in-between-35mm-and-MF system.
peter
 
I am in the same position as Peter - no current investment in MF gear - so the S2 is very appealling and the entry price not that much higher than the competion. The S2 is clearly a much tougher sell to those that are already invested in a MF system. Also, don't expect (and I haven't heard anyone from Leica say) the S2 will out perform the Hassy 50 or Phase 65, but I do think it will compare favorably to those systems and then the S2 price looks like a much better deal.
 

PeterA

Well-known member
I think that the discussion has underlined the potential market for the S2 very well. You have two larger segments and one overlapper.

Segment one: is the I dont own a MFD system/I liek Leica stuff/this camera looks like something that I can use - ergonomics. Key driver for decision is about how well the camera system is recieved - as I do believe that the entrey cost is not really any larger than alternative systems.

Segment two: existing users one way or the other significant investment in existing system - as Bob quite nicely puts key driver here = 'delta' cost of switching versus 'delta' benefits gained.

Segment three ( perhpas smaller) : existing users unhappy with total shooting experience of existing camera systems vs Leica offer.

Jack's posiiton is real world. Squarely fitting into segment two. Irrespective of benfits and appeal - switching costs are too steep on a cost benefit analysis - for his purposes.

The whole MFD thing has been a hobby investigation for me and a lot of fun.

In simple terms I have owned or own every top end system ever made. I stopped buying higher megapixels at 40. I cant see any significant difference between ANY of the systems. All that being said I dont use them much compared to my M system. In simple terms ergonomics is the deal breaker for me. If I want to use a tripod I will use an artec or Alpa. If I want to use hand held- the M cameras kill any MFD camera in output - you have the laws of physics working against you with the megapixel monsters.

I have a legacy situaiton of course as most of me gear is now worth less than 50% of what i paid. So - same as using petrol in one of my cars - enjoy the ride pay the cost - no barrier to exit for me - I am actually quite happy to liquidate everything - except my M lenses and my V/F lenses.

The S2 is a buy for me ONLY if its ergonomics make hand held use MUCH better /easier/effective than existing clunkers.

One back stays to use on technical cmaera - everythign else can go - but S2 ges bought ONLY if approaches Nikon/Canon ease of use inhand held environment.

As all mathemticians like to do - prove the the equation:

I was offered a switch to H4D price using my H3D11-39 as trade in of $21K. This is no tmuch les than S2 price. I can sell my H glass for 60% of new value - easy. Haselblad and Phase One barriers to exit are more apparent (to them) than to me.

-:)
Pete
 

Christopher

Active member
I know it is something most people don't talk about, but have you actually some real offers from your dealers ? I really don't get it. The prices are similar ? where ? I mean just one very simple example: the Phase 150 2.8 costs me 2850EUR inc. 19% VAT, that is WITH a three year warranty. Both the S2 180 and 120, sell for over 5000EURs and at that point is there a three year warranty included or do I have to pay another 500EURs for the basic lens package ? On other lenses the price difference is even bigger.

When putting together to similar systems, I don't even come close to a similar price at the end. Not even using cheaper used lenses or other benefits from an established system. Some of you most be getting some great discounts on S2 gear :p

Sure the Leica will certainly do better wide open and if i would shoot wide open, I would consider it, but for architecture and landscapes shooting from f8-16 I so far don't see a single reason to buy a S2. Still I will try it and test it IQ wise.
 

PeterA

Well-known member
....

Sure the Leica will certainly do better wide open and if i would shoot wide open, I would consider it,

but for architecture and landscapes shooting from f8-16 I so far don't see a single reason to buy a S2. Still I will try it and test it IQ wise.
Wide open is wher the rubber hits the road as far as what I use expensive lenses for goes in rangefinder or SLR guise.
For architecture and landscape - there are better lenses and cameras to use than ANYTHING in MF land - <------fulls top.

atthe end of the day the current MFD camera BODIES are crapola.

Pete
 

David K

Workshop Member
at the end of the day the current MFD camera BODIES are crapola.
Pete
C'mon Pete, don't hold back... tell us how you really feel :) I've currently got three MF bodies which I use on my Sinar kit. The Hy6, Contax 645 and Hassy 203 FE. Each has it's strengths and weaknesses but I would give them all top marks.
 

Christopher

Active member
Yeah well, that is another reason the S2 is not of to much interest to me. It can't replace a DSLR system and it can't replace a MFDB for architecture. However Pete your statement is not fully true, architecture does not only contain images where you have to shift and do overviews, it is sometimes a lot of work on smaller details and for that work, there is no difference between a P 150D and a Schneider 150mm, both are sharp across the frame at f8-14.

Oh and by the way, the Leica can handle great, but when it comes to exact focusing a camera, it is missing the same aspect ALL MFDBs are missing. Live View...
 

Bob

Administrator
Staff member
I wonder how the ergonomics of the S2 will fare (fair? I must be talking to Guy too much) once it is fitted with an L bracket...
-bob
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
I know it is something most people don't talk about, but have you actually some real offers from your dealers ? I really don't get it. The prices are similar ? where ? I mean just one very simple example: the Phase 150 2.8 costs me 2850EUR inc. 19% VAT, that is WITH a three year warranty. Both the S2 180 and 120, sell for over 5000EURs and at that point is there a three year warranty included or do I have to pay another 500EURs for the basic lens package ? On other lenses the price difference is even bigger.

When putting together to similar systems, I don't even come close to a similar price at the end. Not even using cheaper used lenses or other benefits from an established system. Some of you most be getting some great discounts on S2 gear :p

Sure the Leica will certainly do better wide open and if i would shoot wide open, I would consider it, but for architecture and landscapes shooting from f8-16 I so far don't see a single reason to buy a S2. Still I will try it and test it IQ wise.


No worries just ordered a hundred calculators that actually add instead of subtract. Sending them out soon here. :salute:
 
G

gdwhalen

Guest
You guys do understand that the equipment today is light years ahead of what Steichen, Adams, Weston, etc etc used. It is not about the equipment. "Moonrise Over New Mexico" wasn't about the detail (maybe q-tips and chlorox) but it was about the content. I can't think of one single image I've ever looked at that the CAMERA made the pic. It was/is always the subject/light. Always. Always. Always.

I don't know of any hi-end camera that can't take any picture if the content and light is right. Try to relax on these constant squabbles about specs. Specs don't make pictures. Photographers make pictures. Specs are a distraction. A distraction from the time and thought and light that makes great pics. Large format, 35mm - they both have histories of producing great shots with gear/lenses that were 1/4 the quality of what is available today.

Take a deep breath. Let go of the "if only I had the perfect camera" and shoot. Take images that touch your soul. Take images that breathe your breath. Take images that make you say, "look at this". That is all you need. You don't need this constant analysis of pixels, DR, field of view. Yawn.

Take pics that make you smile. Then, you are a photographer.

Now, back to my Pinot.
 

Bob

Administrator
Staff member
Absolutely +1
and as I recall the story, he guessed the exposure on that shot, now of course his guesses were better than mine might be, probably
-bob

You guys do understand that the equipment today is light years ahead of what Steichen, Adams, Weston, etc etc used. It is not about the equipment. "Moonrise Over New Mexico" wasn't about the detail (maybe q-tips and chlorox) but it was about the content. I can't think of one single image I've ever looked at that the CAMERA made the pic. It was/is always the subject/light. Always. Always. Always.

I don't know of any hi-end camera that can't take any picture if the content and light is right. Try to relax on these constant squabbles about specs. Specs don't make pictures. Photographers make pictures. Specs are a distraction. A distraction from the time and thought and light that makes great pics. Large format, 35mm - they both have histories of producing great shots with gear/lenses that were 1/4 the quality of what is available today.

Take a deep breath. Let go of the "if only I had the perfect camera" and shoot. Take images that touch your soul. Take images that breathe your breath. Take images that make you say, "look at this". That is all you need. You don't need this constant analysis of pixels, DR, field of view. Yawn.

Take pics that make you smile. Then, you are a photographer.

Now, back to my Pinot.
 

Dale Allyn

New member
I enthusiastically agree with this sentiment as well.

(Of course the gear part can be fun when you can't be out shooting. ;) )

You guys do understand that the equipment today is light years ahead of what Steichen, Adams, Weston, etc etc used. It is not about the equipment. "Moonrise Over New Mexico" wasn't about the detail (maybe q-tips and chlorox) but it was about the content. I can't think of one single image I've ever looked at that the CAMERA made the pic. It was/is always the subject/light. Always. Always. Always.

I don't know of any hi-end camera that can't take any picture if the content and light is right. Try to relax on these constant squabbles about specs. Specs don't make pictures. Photographers make pictures. Specs are a distraction. A distraction from the time and thought and light that makes great pics. Large format, 35mm - they both have histories of producing great shots with gear/lenses that were 1/4 the quality of what is available today.

Take a deep breath. Let go of the "if only I had the perfect camera" and shoot. Take images that touch your soul. Take images that breathe your breath. Take images that make you say, "look at this". That is all you need. You don't need this constant analysis of pixels, DR, field of view. Yawn.

Take pics that make you smile. Then, you are a photographer.

Now, back to my Pinot.
 
G

gdwhalen

Guest
I enthusiastically agree with this sentiment as well.

(Of course the gear part can be fun when you can't be out shooting. ;) )
Then that answers a theory of mine. To some people it ISN'T about the images. It IS about the gear. Talking about it. Walking around with it. Looking at it.

Diabolical. But whatever makes people happy.
 

carstenw

Active member
You guys do understand that the equipment today is light years ahead of what Steichen, Adams, Weston, etc etc used. It is not about the equipment. "Moonrise Over New Mexico" wasn't about the detail (maybe q-tips and chlorox) but it was about the content. I can't think of one single image I've ever looked at that the CAMERA made the pic. It was/is always the subject/light. Always. Always. Always.

I don't know of any hi-end camera that can't take any picture if the content and light is right. Try to relax on these constant squabbles about specs. Specs don't make pictures. Photographers make pictures. Specs are a distraction. A distraction from the time and thought and light that makes great pics. Large format, 35mm - they both have histories of producing great shots with gear/lenses that were 1/4 the quality of what is available today.

Take a deep breath. Let go of the "if only I had the perfect camera" and shoot. Take images that touch your soul. Take images that breathe your breath. Take images that make you say, "look at this". That is all you need. You don't need this constant analysis of pixels, DR, field of view. Yawn.

Take pics that make you smile. Then, you are a photographer.

Now, back to my Pinot.
As recommended, I am taking a deep breath.

First of all, I notice that you let yourself out of an easy trap by not saying "any camera" but rather saying "any high-end camera". You are using a high-end Hasselblad, aren't you? You could probably do the same work with a 5D2, with a little more post-processing, but you aren't doing that. The original saw goes "any camera", not "any high-end camera".

While you can take great shots with any camera, you can not take the same shots with every camera. Try to imagine Ansel Adams Mt. McKinley shot with a Holga, and the impact is gone. His "Moonrise over Hernandez" shot was also quite uncharacteristic for him, in that it is not quite sharp, and was done in a furious race with time, so in that sense it is a bad example of Ansel Adams' work. His regular work was done with the very best equipment of the day, and a second-best lens for him would not have been good enough.

You can of course still talk about any other number of great photographers who did great work that wasn't that sharp, but I think you will find that the vast majority of landscape work is done with high-end equipment, and the vast majority of photographers in this forum are landscapers.

Furthermore, we have all seen large prints so sharp that it took our breath away. Or more realistically, we held our breath while we examined the amazing amount of detail in the print. This cannot be done with just any camera. You need something pretty unusual, unless you want to triple your time behind the computer, which none of us want to do (we need as much time as possible to argue on forums like this! :)).

So there is definitely a place for discussions and considerations of high-end equipment, and equipment which gets us a little further is worthy of our collective consideration.

There is of course also a certain amount of fetichism going on here. I don't think that is wrong, and I think that there is probably no one here who doesn't fall prey to it to some extent, possibly except you. You seem to have a puritanical streak, as witnessed not only here but also on LL, where you argued for pages against equipment being sexy :) Maybe so for you, H-owner, but my Contax is sexy, period, and so is my M8! :D Hands up, Cube owners, you too are guilty, as are Cambo owners, arTec owners, and so on.

There is a special blend of satisfaction and admiration that comes from handling high-precision equipment made from top-notch materials. Mechanical excellence is something to be admired, not disdained. There is pleasure in owning high-end, high-precision equipment, and the Leica S2 fits into this, hand-in-glove. If I could afford one with the ease of PeterA, I would put my name down tomorrow, but alas, I am just a poor programmer. The S2 may not be noticeably better than the competition, especially for the price, but it is certainly not going to be noticeably worse either, and I love the feel of Leica gear.

To be honest, I hear this "it is the photographer, not the camera" bit a little too often to just take it on the other cheek. Some types of photos require good equipment, even if not all do. Some even require the best.
 

Christopher

Active member
It is actually a funny thing, that we talk so much about gear in the end it does not matter. I mean when I sold some stock images when I first started I had a mixture of 10D and 1DsMk2 images in my library. A lot of fine images, the one image that was sold for the highest price, was a 10D images with a cheap 20$ macro lens. The company loved the image and wanted it for a larger campaign, so they bought it for around 12k at that time. Would it have been a better image with a S2 or P65 ? Well no, just sharper and more res., however in the end the company would have not payed more for it. I just have to look at some high End art galleries, you can find some photography which technical isn't the best, but the images are just plain amazing. That is what we should worry about ;-)
 
G

gdwhalen

Guest
As recommended, I am taking a deep breath.

First of all, I notice that you let yourself out of an easy trap by not saying "any camera" but rather saying "any high-end camera". You are using a high-end Hasselblad, aren't you? You could probably do the same work with a 5D2, with a little more post-processing, but you aren't doing that. The original saw goes "any camera", not "any high-end camera".

While you can take great shots with any camera, you can not take the same shots with every camera. Try to imagine Ansel Adams Mt. McKinley shot with a Holga, and the impact is gone. His "Moonrise over Hernandez" shot was also quite uncharacteristic for him, in that it is not quite sharp, and was done in a furious race with time, so in that sense it is a bad example of Ansel Adams' work. His regular work was done with the very best equipment of the day, and a second-best lens for him would not have been good enough.

You can of course still talk about any other number of great photographers who did great work that wasn't that sharp, but I think you will find that the vast majority of landscape work is done with high-end equipment, and the vast majority of photographers in this forum are landscapers.

Furthermore, we have all seen large prints so sharp that it took our breath away. Or more realistically, we held our breath while we examined the amazing amount of detail in the print. This cannot be done with just any camera. You need something pretty unusual, unless you want to triple your time behind the computer, which none of us want to do (we need as much time as possible to argue on forums like this! :)).

So there is definitely a place for discussions and considerations of high-end equipment, and equipment which gets us a little further is worthy of our considerations.

There is of course also a certain amount of fetichism going on here. I don't think that is wrong, and I think that there is probably no one here who doesn't fall prey to it to some extent, possibly except you. You seem to have a puritanical streak, as witnessed not only here but also on LL, where you argued for pages against equipment being sexy :) Maybe so for you, H-owner, but my Contax is sexy, period, and so is my M8! :D Hands up, Cube owners, you too are guilty, as are Cambo owners, arTec owners, and so on.

There is a special blend of satisfaction and admiration that comes from handling high-precision equipment made from top-notch materials. Mechanical excellence is something to be admired, not disdained. There is pleasure in owning high-end, high-precision equipment, and the Leica S2 fits into this, hand-in-glove. If I could afford one with the ease of PeterA, I would put my name down tomorrow, but alas, I am just a poor programmer. The S2 may not be noticeably better than the competition, especially for the price, but it is certainly not going to be noticeably worse either, and I love the feel of Leica gear.

To be honest, I hear this "it is the photographer, not the camera" bit a little too often to just take it on the other cheek. Some types of photos require good equipment, even if not all do. Some even require the best.


I think you missed the part where I said the equipment from that time as compared to today, that there is no comparison.

But again, you may prefer to debate equipment. That may be your thing - so to speak.

I am smart enough and old enough to understand that life is short and that people can do whatever they want, as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else, to make their lives better. If you like debating equipment or grammar or terminology - so be it. Go for it.

I have shot Kodak Instamatics, Polaroids, Nikon's, Canon's, Leica's and now Hasselblad. Probably the best pic I ever took was with a Nikon FA while driving over a bridge, shooting through a wet car window at a fisherman standing on the bridge. Content trumps equipment every single time.
 

carstenw

Active member
Christopher, while you may have been able to sell one 10D image for 12k, you certainly wouldn't want to try to make a lifestyle out of it. It is easier to sell sharper, higher res images for more, in the general case. Again, this doesn't hold for all types of photography, and it doesn't hold for any type of photography all the time, but it does hold to a large extent for both fashion, architecture and landscape photography.
 

Christopher

Active member
partly I agree with you Carsten on the other hand, people are so much talking about gear and it still is incredible how much bad stuff one sees from people using their M9, Phase or Hassi gear. Only because some people can afford it and it pays for them, does not make them a good photographer.
 
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