The GetDPI Photography Forum

Great to see you here. Join our insightful photographic forum today and start tapping into a huge wealth of photographic knowledge. Completing our simple registration process will allow you to gain access to exclusive content, add your own topics and posts, share your work and connect with other members through your own private inbox! And don’t forget to say hi!

The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

vieri

Well-known member
I think that is prudent behaviour in any case, Bob. I would not recommend to anyone that they gamble on the S2. If someone is wealthy and independent enough that it doesn't impact their bottom line or their budget if the S2 is flaky for the first six months, then go for it, but otherwise, wait a little and see how it works out. I do believe that even if there are problems, and I am sure that there will be *something*, in the end Leica will make it right, as they did with the M8. It might take some time though. As it did with the M8.
Very wise position Carsten, agreed 100%. :D

As far as the comparison with the M8... good one, hopefully, though, there will not be still unsolved/unsolvable problems after a few years - as it did with the M8 :angel:
 

fotografz

Well-known member
I guess everyone's high iso needs are different Marc and maybe some of the reasons for preferring certain equipment. While I mostly shoot outside on location and usually have enough lights, depending on the grain pattern of the sensor, I prefer to shoot at higher iso settings, usually at least at 400 and preferably 600, I find camera's base iso results too clean for my tastes most of the time, useable high iso for me simply means pleasant noise pattern with little smearing.
No disagreement there. But with clients multi-tasking every image these days you may be cropping out a 20% of image portion for some applications.

I want high ISOs as much as the next person ... and I do think a more gritty approach to some stuff is actually desirable.

The point I was making was that high ISO isn't as in-demand with studio photographers as indicated in some posts here.

I just don't see this as a very viable "typical" studio machine compared to what's already available. If that were the criteria, I'd go Hassey or Phase.

I'd like to use the S2 differently ... more a DSLR replacement ... so a bit better ISO performance would be something to check out. NOt anywhere near the DSLRs but better than 200.
 
D

ddk

Guest
The point I was making was that high ISO isn't as in-demand with studio photographers as indicated in some posts here.

I just don't see this as a very viable "typical" studio machine compared to what's already available. If that were the criteria, I'd go Hassey or Phase.

I'd like to use the S2 differently ... more a DSLR replacement ... so a bit better ISO performance would be something to check out. NOt anywhere near the DSLRs but better than 200.
Agreed, same here...
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
I think Marc makes a good point and it hits me as well, reason I have the P30+. If the S2 can get a little closer to the Nikon /Canon in regards to ISO it would certainly have more appeal to the 35mm shooter that is more after a quality bump but still maintain some high ISO work. Obviously 1250 maybe the stretch but frankly getting over 800 is pretty damn rare and i shot a lot of the same type of stuff high ISO 35mm shooters do withMF. Obviously some will need higher but a good majority does not and that is a opening for the S2 if it can maintain some high ISO than it is much more appealing to them to move up. The S2 can take over some of that market, obviously many things at play here but this alone will help it. Frankly I think everyone here wants to see it succeed we obviously don't need any more failures in MF but on the same hand the question is to each one of us , How does it fit in with what you do.
 
D

ddk

Guest
all that aside unless one is a devoted red dot fan, the 40k to 50k for an incomplete system is going to be a huge hurdle, even for the very well heeled amateur, specially when there are well proven alternatives...
 

markowich

New member
I won't argue that Peter for sure and very aware of CCD technology versus noise. Mainly one reason the P30+ is as good as it is mainly because of C1 and the profiles for the P30+. It is going to be interesting to see how leica attacks this, the M9 looked pretty good when I tested it at just under 1250. How this will translate over to the S2 is something to be seen. Certainly a test Jack and I will do come December 9th between the S2 and the P30+ and P40+.
guy,
the P30+ has a significantly larger pixel size than the S2.
this is (mainly) why it does better at higher iso than the other DBs (and the S2), without pixel pinning.
peter
 

markowich

New member
No disagreement there. But with clients multi-tasking every image these days you may be cropping out a 20% of image portion for some applications.

I want high ISOs as much as the next person ... and I do think a more gritty approach to some stuff is actually desirable.

The point I was making was that high ISO isn't as in-demand with studio photographers as indicated in some posts here.

I just don't see this as a very viable "typical" studio machine compared to what's already available. If that were the criteria, I'd go Hassey or Phase.

I'd like to use the S2 differently ... more a DSLR replacement ... so a bit better ISO performance would be something to check out. NOt anywhere near the DSLRs but better than 200.
you nailed the point: the S2 should have been a DSLR replacement. leave your nikon (canon) at home and take the S2 instead, as a 'one camera do it all'. this would have been its only justification. in the studio there is much better stuff around. but for a DSLR replacement it needs at least good iso 800. and this is precisely where my disappointment comes from, the DNGs that were shown to me in the last days just aren't there at all. and firmware cannot fix it. guy's and jack's tests notwithstanding, the S2 is clinically dead.
peter
 

doug

Well-known member
all that aside unless one is a devoted red dot fan, the 40k to 50k for an incomplete system is going to be a huge hurdle, even for the very well heeled amateur, specially when there are well proven alternatives...
Which alternatives are weather-sealed?
 

vieri

Well-known member
Which alternatives are weather-sealed?
Well, Doug - none, but then again: which S2's back can I use on a technical camera? Or, which S2 offers 50 Mp? 65 Mp? Sensor + technology for high ISO? Auto Focus-&-Recompose as the new Hassy? And so on... :D

What I mean is, it doesn't seem fair to me to use as arguments the differences in specifications. No S2 makes espresso either, nor does any of the other DMF... or, to stay in the camera realm: which MF (or S2) shoots faster than a D3? Which reaches longer than Nikon or Canon's tele lenses? And so on, you get my point. All the offers in the MF has their strengths and weaknesses. Saying "well proven alternatives" one means, though I wouldn't put words in someone else's mouth, "alternatives that are on the market for quite some time and are proven to work" versus the S2 which still has to do both (be on the market first, proven to be working second).

I'd say, let's wait and see... :D
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Which alternatives are weather-sealed?
Doug, maybe this is another good reason that the S2 camera should be positioned as a leap up from a DSLR. There is an expectation of a pro spec DSLR to be weather sealed because of the way it can, and is, often used.

As a replacement for a "studio" machine, it's solving problems that rarely exist, while creating ones that don't exist for the existing MFD systems.

The 35mm DSLR problem that the S2 system does solve is one of a confined sensor space ... where in order to increase resolution, more and more pixels have to be crammed into the same space. A task that the 35mm makers have been doing a decent job with, and are continuing with the strongly rumored impending 34.8 meg sensors ... but it has it's limits.

BTW, I've unintentionally exposed my Hassey H cameras to a monsoon downpour and driving wet blizzards with no ill effects. Doesn't mean it's weather proof, but it's not sieve either ... the fit of the modular parts feature some pretty tight tolerances.

-Marc
 

Sharokin

New member
I don't think too many of future Leica S2 owners will be using they're cameras in bad weather.
Does it rain much in South of France?
 

doug

Well-known member
Well, Doug - none, but then again: which S2's back can I use on a technical camera? Or, which S2 offers 50 Mp? 65 Mp? Sensor + technology for high ISO? Auto Focus-&-Recompose as the new Hassy? And so on... :D
Sure they each have their strengths and weaknesses. My point is that despite the assertions of some, the Red Dot isn't the S2's only strength. I agree that until people actually start using them it's all hypothetical - but there is no other DMF camera that is weather-sealed, hypothetically or otherwise.
 

PeterA

Well-known member
The biggest risk for potential buyers in my mind isnt so much what the S2 can or can't do. These things are trade-offs and can be relatively easilly 'priced' one way or another by each buyer.

The risk I am finding hard/impossible to price - is Leica - the company itself. I have made up my mind to buy an M9 - when they become abvailable - and even here I am shaking a bit at the company risk or counterparty risk I am buying into.

The S2 elevates the whole issue of counterparty risk to another dimension.

So whilst the 'cost' to me isnt any greater than previous escapades and can be offset completely against ridding myself of 80% of what I currently own - what I cant price is Leica's sustainability in the market.

So for me proving the business model is alive and well is more important than switching costs.

Hence I wont be an early or even necessarilly mid term adopter.

For a person earning their living out of this stuff - well in many ways it is a relatively easy decision.Either the gear works in a depreciaiton to nothing timeframe schedule in terms of dollars earned versus costs - or it doesn't.

Will you make more dollars using the S2 versus using something else - or not? Simple really.

Unless - you are also a working pro with gear fetishism - well then it is a hard decision -:)
 

carstenw

Active member
Well, Doug - none, but then again: which S2's back can I use on a technical camera? Or, which S2 offers 50 Mp? 65 Mp? Sensor + technology for high ISO? Auto Focus-&-Recompose as the new Hassy? And so on...
Vieri, that wasn't a hypothetical point Doug was trying to make; he is doing wildlife photography in all weather, and weather sealing would allow him to go MF (as long as Leica releases the 350mm on time :)).
 

PeterA

Well-known member
btw - Bob that was a nice expansion of the significance of a company's key strategic question - namely "what business am I really in - what is my real market and how do I define that market "?.
 

paulmoore

New member
you nailed the point: the S2 should have been a DSLR replacement. leave your nikon (canon) at home and take the S2 instead, as a 'one camera do it all'. this would have been its only justification. in the studio there is much better stuff around. but for a DSLR replacement it needs at least good iso 800. and this is precisely where my disappointment comes from, the DNGs that were shown to me in the last days just aren't there at all. and firmware cannot fix it. guy's and jack's tests notwithstanding, the S2 is clinically dead.
peter
I think you have it wrong, but you won't believe it til you see the files for yourself.. seems you have an axe to grind here and are not being open minded about this camera. maybe when you hear it from jack and guy that this is great camera then you will change your rehashed tune. Maybe you need iso 1600 and above and you base your opinion solely on this, I do not need above 800 so I am free to think this is a killer camera system.
 

stephengilbert

Active member
Why is it that people who are critical of the S2 "have an axe to grind," while people who defend it don't? I agree that there isn't enough information available yet to reach an intelligent conclusion about the camera, but I don't see how deciding that it's just great is any more informed that deciding that it's not.

Obviously, we're all "free to think" whatever we want, but is it really so important what someone else thinks today that each slight needs to be rebutted?
 

tjv

Active member
Why is it that people who are critical of the S2 "have an axe to grind," while people who defend it don't? I agree that there isn't enough information available yet to reach an intelligent conclusion about the camera, but I don't see how deciding that it's just great is any more informed that deciding that it's not.

Obviously, we're all "free to think" whatever we want, but is it really so important what someone else thinks today that each slight needs to be rebutted?
It just gets tired to hear the same negative comments from the same person, over and over again, without any real basis for the comments. :deadhorse: Eg it's already "clinically dead." I'm not well enough informed, eg I haven't shot the camera personally and seen the files I've taken, to be able to give an opinion either way. Enough of that though, it's a dead end discussion.

Personally, I'm looking forward to seeing real world results from this beast. I don't care about 600+ ISO so much, but I care about using a MF camera in variable conditions as well has hauling it around all day by foot. I'd like a Hassey, but the size and weight are an issue for me, as well as the weather sealing and general handling. I'm probably in the minority here, but, on paper at least, I like what the S2 offers and think it would fit my working style and needs perfectly. (Except I'd prefer a 4x5 ratio chip.)
 

Bob

Administrator
Staff member
btw - Bob that was a nice expansion of the significance of a company's key strategic question - namely "what business am I really in - what is my real market and how do I define that market "?.
Thanks,
I think the dead horse we are all beating is the definition of that SAM, whether it is big enough to sustain the S2, whether or not Leica is able to execute, and whether or not the S2 fits and is priced right for that SAM.

Initial orders are not necessarily a good indication of viability, since to some degree those who will have it at any price and must have it immediately might place a pre-order and the aggregate pre-orders might actually be a whole quarters worth of demand or maybe more. The sustainability part is what happens in the second and third quarters of continuous "on the shelf" availability.
Some products are of the nature that they have a demand curve that is sharply declining after an initial burst. Space shuttles come to mind as an example. The prudent manufacturer will price his product, if there is fear of it falling in the category, such that break-even or better will be achieved with the initial burst of orders. That leaves the possibility, assuming that manufacturing margins are adequate, that a manufacturer may test market elasticity through future price reductions and promotions. If the initial burst of orders causes the venture to break even, then any margin after that point flows directly to the bottom line.
-bob
 
Top