For whatever it's worth, I plan on purchasing an S2 system. God laughs when men make plans, so avoiding WW3, natural disasters or banking crises then my goal is to own an S2 system for it's intended advertising photography purposes. Just wanted to bring this up because the casual surfer might read internet comments and assume that there is no real market for the S2.
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The Leica S2 System and Image Quality
- Thread starter carstenw
- Start date
John Black
Active member
IMO the S2 is wholly fixable - price it lower. If the S2 and "kit" lens was $16,999, would there be all the hub-bub about Leica entering this segment? Probably not. Another dilemma facing Leica is, what happens in 2-3 years when the S3 is released? Are people who bought the S2 going to be eager to do it again with S3? If the S2 (and hypothetically the S3) was priced more reasonably, then getting on the Leica upgrade train wouldn't be so dreadful.
markowich
New member
just to make the point, i was number one on my dealer's S2 list, and got off when i was shown a number of DNGs last week. the only axe i have to grind is that i would have LOVED to buy the S2 system if it had lived up to my expectations.
one more comment, i own an M9 and 6 M lenses, so i am by no means an enemy of leica. on the contrary.
peter
If I learned anything during my marketing career, it was that IF a company doesn't clearly position a product the consumer will do it for you ... and you may or may not like what they conclude.
Much of the back and forth here indicates exactly that. People are trying to place the S2 in their hierarchy of needs.
Some, like Mike M, are able to do that. I personally think Guy will be able to do that also, but has clear business concerns that need to be addressed. I also think Doug is a prime prospect for this camera if the longer lenses come to fruition ... (if I were a Billionaire, I'd buy the damned thing for Doug as my contribution to the "Arts"). :ROTFL:
Others are batting the pros and cons back and forth in an attempt to examine the viability of such a system for their specific needs.
My perspective is tainted by already owning a system that gets the job done in the studio and on location ... including versatile use on a view camera with lenses that mitigate the S2 lens superiority. Deprecation aside (already done), it is still a daunting prospect to off an existing MFD system with a clear upgrade path for a new one @ these lofty numbers.
However, when I position the S2 as a long-term replacement for the relentless cycle of 35mm DSLRs with their confined sensor space, it becomes an interesting prospect.
In an exercise I recently did, I revealed my real shooting habits by studying the exif info from thousands of shots. As opposed to what I think I did, this revealed the truth of how I actually shoot. Overwhelmingly, my ISO were bunched up in the 320 to 800 area ... even with a D700/D3 which is a waste of those camera's best attribute. Add to that many MFD applications at lower ISOs ... I have a clearer picture of my demands from the S2 when I get one to test.
I really believe that this camera started as an autofocus R needing both a new camera and all new lenses. In studying the 35mm competitive set ... I believe Leica decided to avoid competing there but to leap frog ALL 35mm DSLRs. If you are starting from scratch you have that advantage. Letting people place it in the MFD category helps justify the cost to some degree.
-Marc
Much of the back and forth here indicates exactly that. People are trying to place the S2 in their hierarchy of needs.
Some, like Mike M, are able to do that. I personally think Guy will be able to do that also, but has clear business concerns that need to be addressed. I also think Doug is a prime prospect for this camera if the longer lenses come to fruition ... (if I were a Billionaire, I'd buy the damned thing for Doug as my contribution to the "Arts"). :ROTFL:
Others are batting the pros and cons back and forth in an attempt to examine the viability of such a system for their specific needs.
My perspective is tainted by already owning a system that gets the job done in the studio and on location ... including versatile use on a view camera with lenses that mitigate the S2 lens superiority. Deprecation aside (already done), it is still a daunting prospect to off an existing MFD system with a clear upgrade path for a new one @ these lofty numbers.
However, when I position the S2 as a long-term replacement for the relentless cycle of 35mm DSLRs with their confined sensor space, it becomes an interesting prospect.
In an exercise I recently did, I revealed my real shooting habits by studying the exif info from thousands of shots. As opposed to what I think I did, this revealed the truth of how I actually shoot. Overwhelmingly, my ISO were bunched up in the 320 to 800 area ... even with a D700/D3 which is a waste of those camera's best attribute. Add to that many MFD applications at lower ISOs ... I have a clearer picture of my demands from the S2 when I get one to test.
I really believe that this camera started as an autofocus R needing both a new camera and all new lenses. In studying the 35mm competitive set ... I believe Leica decided to avoid competing there but to leap frog ALL 35mm DSLRs. If you are starting from scratch you have that advantage. Letting people place it in the MFD category helps justify the cost to some degree.
-Marc
Yes, very true. It's going to take time to see how this all plays out. From my perspective, I see the middle-ground being squeezed out of the professional market. I think that we are going to see lots of serious cost-cutting and bean counting at the low end and lots of excessive luxury at the top. The middle is going to disappear. Where does this leave the S2? Well, if I'm correct, the more relevant question might be to ask where does this leave the S2's competition?
I am really unsure about what the S2's competition might be.
As a dslr kind of thing, will it be high end canikons or as a sort of mf kind of thing, will it be the Phase/Hassy bunch? I suspect that Leica might hope that it will be the high end canikons such that the traditional, and pressured, MF market might just dissapear. I imagine (without data, of course) that the luzury end of the canikon market may be more reachable and larger than the dslr-like mf market. The Leica price point risks creating an umbrella for the Phase/Hassy crew which they are well positioned to exploit.
There are many cross-over plays here, so although many bets have been made, post time is probably not until 1Q next year.
I will be sitting in the nose-bleed seats to watch the games LOL.
-bob
Bet a dollar to a donut that the MFD players will opt out of anything below 40 meg. in the near future.
There has been no mention at all of a Hasselblad H4D/31 or H4D/39. Just a H4D/50 and H4D/60 ... with the 60 being launched first.
Rumors of Sony's impending next step touts around 34.8 meg. with 1/12,000th shutter and a true sync speed of 1/1000th. I think the high end of the 35mm DSLR field is about to get ferociously competitive.
-Marc
D
ddk
Guest
I've used my Leaf backs in hot deserts, in salt flats, on beaches and in a snow storm with a cover. Phase owners even cook theirs in microwaves, its not as if the lack of weather sealing is an insurmountable or constant problem for most.
The red dot comments aren't derogatory, the Dot has real allure and sex appeal, and at this people have real expectations from it and I'm not sure that they could be met. Let's face it, post DMR, Leica's track record isn't all that clean. M8 was born with genetic issues, and the M9 hasn't hit the ground running either with quality problems and so few cameras...
The S2 is the successor of the S1, not DMR/M8/M9 which are developed & made by Imacon/Jenoptik.
Phase and Hasselblad will go 40+MP (I don't think we will see anything but P40+/P65+ and H4D-50/60 in the future from them), the trade-off is size and speed.
@Markowich
You mentioned you used HC/Fuji-lenses with an P65+ - how did you do that, have you a H1/H2? And yes, I've used these lenses (although with film and a less demanding 39MP-back). They are good >f5.6 but in extreme situations you have to be careful if you really want to achieve significantly more performance than with the <40MP-backs.
The actual size of the photodiodes of the Kodak/Dalsa-sensors is unknown, theoretically they are about 30% smaller than the previous 6.8µm-generation - but most likely the fill-rate has been improved to compensate for that.
You have an H3DII-50? So you know what to expect, same sensor + 2/3EV-1EV due to microlenses. I never got the chance to handle the 50MP-Hassi for a long time, but 400ASA (640ASA with S2?) looked quite well (and at least as good as 800ASA from DSLRs) from my memory.
The P65+ is great, I had the chance to use it on an Alpa - but it's entirely different from the S2 and nearly twice as expensive (since everybody complains about the S2-price).
Phase and Hasselblad will go 40+MP (I don't think we will see anything but P40+/P65+ and H4D-50/60 in the future from them), the trade-off is size and speed.
@Markowich
You mentioned you used HC/Fuji-lenses with an P65+ - how did you do that, have you a H1/H2? And yes, I've used these lenses (although with film and a less demanding 39MP-back). They are good >f5.6 but in extreme situations you have to be careful if you really want to achieve significantly more performance than with the <40MP-backs.
The actual size of the photodiodes of the Kodak/Dalsa-sensors is unknown, theoretically they are about 30% smaller than the previous 6.8µm-generation - but most likely the fill-rate has been improved to compensate for that.
You have an H3DII-50? So you know what to expect, same sensor + 2/3EV-1EV due to microlenses. I never got the chance to handle the 50MP-Hassi for a long time, but 400ASA (640ASA with S2?) looked quite well (and at least as good as 800ASA from DSLRs) from my memory.
The P65+ is great, I had the chance to use it on an Alpa - but it's entirely different from the S2 and nearly twice as expensive (since everybody complains about the S2-price).
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vieri
Well-known member
Indeed, nor I ever said it was hypothetical; however, the way the rhetorical question was posed invited my answer (sort of an invitation to a polemicla dance...). Doug, of course the S2's only selling point isn't the Red Dot, and I am sure it will be a great camera. My (and others', as far as I can see here) point is that, except for some specific applications where some of its features are unique to the S2, for the general digital MF user there are other, equally if not more competent, alternatives available for much less dough... which, in the end, is good for us - as always competition is.Vieri, that wasn't a hypothetical point Doug was trying to make; he is doing wildlife photography in all weather, and weather sealing would allow him to go MF (as long as Leica releases the 350mm on time).
G
gdwhalen
Guest
The S2 would have been perfect if it was a FF R10. It can't really compete in the 50+ mgpxl studio world and it costs too much to compete in the 35mm world. It is in it's own land which could be a good thing but, unfortunately it loses its battles agains 35mm ISO ceiling and MF pixel ceiling. They are taking on two markets without having the ability to beat either one of them. However, there was a loyal Leica base of supporters and those supporters (I used to be one of them) are a very forgiving bunch.Indeed, nor I ever said it was hypothetical; however, the way the rhetorical question was posed invited my answer (sort of an invitation to a polemicla dance...). Doug, of course the S2's only selling point isn't the Red Dot, and I am sure it will be a great camera. My (and others', as far as I can see here) point is that, except for some specific applications where some of its features are unique to the S2, for the general digital MF user there are other, equally if not more competent, alternatives available for much less dough... which, in the end, is good for us - as always competition is.
carstenw
Active member
That is quite a one-sided way of looking at the actual situation. Yes, those comparisons can be made, but realistically, for every feature of the 35mm throng or the MF crowd, the S2 does it either better or worse (or the same; but for argument's sake...). You can of course make a list of things that 35mm does better, and that MF does better, but you can equally well flip the examined feature set and end up with a list of things the S2 does better than 35mm, or MF.
For example, the S2 does IQ and resolution better than 35mm, but does compactness, AF speed, weather sealing and shooting rate better than MF (except the Sensor+ modes with their low resolution). Just this example defines a target market for which the S2 is better than existing solutions. Other examples can also be made.
vieri
Well-known member
Very good analysis. The major points here are:
- are there, and if so how many, users that live in the intersection group that you defined here;
- are those above users ready to shell an amount of money that is:
A. vastly superior to the equivalent amount for a 35 mm digital system, against which they would gain MP and IQ but loose a lot (speed, lens reach, high ISO, portability, etc);
B. vastly superior to the equivalent amount for a MF digital system, against which they would gain weather sealing, AF, compactness & shooting rate and loose MP and IQ, flexibility of a separate back, completeness of the system etc.
I guess time will tell...
yaya
Active member
Has anyone tried or tested the AF speed compared to current MF solution?
Similarly, has anyone tried the "finger down, count to 60" method shooting into a CF card and/ or tethered to a tower/ laptop?
Any figures from the latter test available anywhere?
Re R-10 versus S-2, if one considers it from the business side, I think the S2 makes a lot of good sense. Consider:
* The R-10 would have required a complete re-design of the lenses anyway, specifically for AF but also optically to extract the most from direct digital capture;
* The R-10 body would have a complete re-design for a unified digital body and the new lenses;
* So if you're re-designing your lenses and bodies anyway, why not think outside the box for a minute;
* Competing head-to head with the existing modular MF market is not particularly wise since they have entrenched markets that are tough to topple;
* Competing with Canon, Nikon and Sony is not particularly wise since they have entrenched markets and their pricing is going to be tough to match;
>>> Ergo, you probably look to build something hybridized... And what do you get? Probably a high-resolution, contemporary design body for convenient and familiar handling, unibody to keep size as small as possible and alignment issues optimally controlled, simple and elegant UI, and all this with the hopes of killer image quality. You then build killer lenses for it, an area where you have reigned superior for many years and have solid brand loyalty and recognition. (Let's face it, who'd be considering an S-2 body if it promised a new line of Panasonic lenses?) Moreover, if you do all of this properly, you won't have any need to re-design your "old" SLR system, saving tons of R&D coin.
Personally, I think Leica hit the nail on the head with this. Is it a gamble? Sure. But IMO it bests the gamble of going to head-to-haed with Phase and Hassy on modular backs, and eliminates any head-to-head with Nikon or Canon lest they chase you. IOW, it was a smart business move if you're a smaller company, late to the table and want to stay in the imaging business... In fact the ONLY big hurdle they need to clear is price justification. And if the camera delivers in Aces, then that isn't going to be an issue anyway as every single person that wants one will find a way to get it, even if it means waiting three years to buy used.
My .02 only,
* The R-10 would have required a complete re-design of the lenses anyway, specifically for AF but also optically to extract the most from direct digital capture;
* The R-10 body would have a complete re-design for a unified digital body and the new lenses;
* So if you're re-designing your lenses and bodies anyway, why not think outside the box for a minute;
* Competing head-to head with the existing modular MF market is not particularly wise since they have entrenched markets that are tough to topple;
* Competing with Canon, Nikon and Sony is not particularly wise since they have entrenched markets and their pricing is going to be tough to match;
>>> Ergo, you probably look to build something hybridized... And what do you get? Probably a high-resolution, contemporary design body for convenient and familiar handling, unibody to keep size as small as possible and alignment issues optimally controlled, simple and elegant UI, and all this with the hopes of killer image quality. You then build killer lenses for it, an area where you have reigned superior for many years and have solid brand loyalty and recognition. (Let's face it, who'd be considering an S-2 body if it promised a new line of Panasonic lenses?) Moreover, if you do all of this properly, you won't have any need to re-design your "old" SLR system, saving tons of R&D coin.
Personally, I think Leica hit the nail on the head with this. Is it a gamble? Sure. But IMO it bests the gamble of going to head-to-haed with Phase and Hassy on modular backs, and eliminates any head-to-head with Nikon or Canon lest they chase you. IOW, it was a smart business move if you're a smaller company, late to the table and want to stay in the imaging business... In fact the ONLY big hurdle they need to clear is price justification. And if the camera delivers in Aces, then that isn't going to be an issue anyway as every single person that wants one will find a way to get it, even if it means waiting three years to buy used.
My .02 only,
Guy Mancuso
Administrator, Instructor
Nothing yet but my fear on tethered work could be a sore spot. Will know soon enough. AF when i tried it back in prototype stage was okay but not anywhere near 35mm but hopefully when Jack and I test this with the new DF body we can do a head to head with the S2 on AF as well and see how it shakes out with a production unit.
Add my 2 cents to this. This is just how I see it and, after playing around with the camera a bit yesterday, I think they accomplished this. Clearly not a system for everyone but it's perfect for the niche thats looking for this solution. I could see myself taking this camera on my travels where I'd otherwise leave my MF gear behind. IMHO, it blows away the 35mm offerings in terms of IQ and if it does nothing more than hold it's own with the other MF systems, it does so in a compact, hand-holdable form factor. With the market for luxury goods soaring once again I think it will sell briskly to the well heeled buyer.
G
gdwhalen
Guest
I'm not sure why I even commented again on the S2 subject. It has been so over examined, over discussed and is so personal to each member. I really liked my Leica gear. Now I really like my Hasselblad Hd3-50 and am very much looking forward to getting the 60 and more lenses. So.... I only wish the best for anyone that buys into Leica and I do hope that they survive. That is good for all of the end users.