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The Leica S2 System and Image Quality

markowich

New member
georgl,
i have an H2, but had no time to test it with P65+. so far i have used the P65+ only on my alpa max with rodenstock/schneider lenses. great!
and i do not like even iso 200 on H3DII 50. but you will find less discriminating testers (luminous-landscape for example) who have a less
critical view of high isos in MF.
peter

The S2 is the successor of the S1, not DMR/M8/M9 which are developed & made by Imacon/Jenoptik.

Phase and Hasselblad will go 40+MP (I don't think we will see anything but P40+/P65+ and H4D-50/60 in the future from them), the trade-off is size and speed.

@Markowich
You mentioned you used HC/Fuji-lenses with an P65+ - how did you do that, have you a H1/H2? And yes, I've used these lenses (although with film and a less demanding 39MP-back). They are good >f5.6 but in extreme situations you have to be careful if you really want to achieve significantly more performance than with the <40MP-backs.

The actual size of the photodiodes of the Kodak/Dalsa-sensors is unknown, theoretically they are about 30% smaller than the previous 6.8µm-generation - but most likely the fill-rate has been improved to compensate for that.
You have an H3DII-50? So you know what to expect, same sensor + 2/3EV-1EV due to microlenses. I never got the chance to handle the 50MP-Hassi for a long time, but 400ASA (640ASA with S2?) looked quite well (and at least as good as 800ASA from DSLRs) from my memory.

The P65+ is great, I had the chance to use it on an Alpa - but it's entirely different from the S2 and nearly twice as expensive (since everybody complains about the S2-price).
 

markowich

New member
Add my 2 cents to this. This is just how I see it and, after playing around with the camera a bit yesterday, I think they accomplished this. Clearly not a system for everyone but it's perfect for the niche thats looking for this solution. I could see myself taking this camera on my travels where I'd otherwise leave my MF gear behind. IMHO, it blows away the 35mm offerings in terms of IQ and if it does nothing more than hold it's own with the other MF systems, it does so in a compact, hand-holdable form factor. With the market for luxury goods soaring once again I think it will sell briskly to the well heeled buyer.
and above base iso?
peter
 

David K

Workshop Member
and above base iso?
peter
Peter,
Didn't test for it and don't really plan to. My MF experience is limited to having used the Aptus 75S and now my Sinar e75LV kit and neither of those handled higher ISO's well unless there was lots of light. For low light shooting I've found my D3 better than anything else I've ever shot. For me there's no single solution system out there.
 

markowich

New member
Peter,
Didn't test for it and don't really plan to. My MF experience is limited to having used the Aptus 75S and now my Sinar e75LV kit and neither of those handled higher ISO's well unless there was lots of light. For low light shooting I've found my D3 better than anything else I've ever shot. For me there's no single solution system out there.
david,
i do agree with you...unfortunately. the S2 has something seductive to it, so i developed -rather irrationally - hope. but after all, my base iso requirements are well taken care of by the P65 and the H3D II 50, which i am going to swap for the H4D 60.
peter
 

fotografz

Well-known member
How about we wait until someone has some images to offer taken by themselves?
-bob
Exactly my thinking ... only I'd take that step further. Just thinking out loud here.

I don't care what other people shoot. I care what I shoot ... so I need to do that before even considering this camera.

I will be trying the camera soon, in the type of environment I tend to shoot in, shooting the type of subjects I capture for a living, processed the way I usually do.

However, my expectations aren't to supplant DSLR applications in total ... just part of them. ISO performance needs to be workable not spectacular. What needs to be spectacular are shots like I've done on past shoots using a H3D-II/31... which I never expected to shoot in darker conditions either. My M9 and fast M lenses do that low light job quite nicely while delivering that Leica "something" I can't get with any DSLR .... and trust me, I've used them ALL. :ROTFL:

What the H3D-31 brought to the party was greater dynamic range and a tonal flexibility in truly horrid lighting, at shoot times I have no control over. Like at water's edge, or on the beach ... or anywhere at noon. I shoot in conditions like this as often as in dark reception halls. The other S2 plus is that it is a focal plane shutter camera with pretty fast lenses ... offering the option of leaf shutter should I pare down the H studio kit.


I've sold off a ton of gear in preparation for the next move (thanks to the best F/S place on the internet ... kudos to Jack and Guy! :thumbs:).

By mid Dec. it will be decision time. :eek: Either upgrade the H3D-II 39 to the H4D/60, or stay pat with the MFD kit and go for the S2.

Lots of info to gather before then.

Marc



This is the type of shot I used the H3D/31 for ... harsh dead overhead white out lighting where my second shooters DSLR stuff blocked up the shadows and/or blew the highlights ... and the H camera didn't.
 

ptomsu

Workshop Member
The S2 was for sure a very smart move, I agree with Jack and many others on this one.

Especially if you do not need the "modularity" of todays MF systems with separate camera and back, which is in fact only mainly marketing, as all the cameras come with a dedicated back and is recommended to keep and use a specific bak only with the body you bought - at least this is true for Hasselblad and it might become very similar with Phase.

Was thinking why I need a tech camera if I can do stitching and panos also differently? Why not always use the best part of you lens - even better if a Leica S lens - and produce the stuff you want? And a TS lens will also be available for those who really need this.

End of the day the S System covers a nice area for many photographers, for some it might become even the "only one" system.

And finally I do not doubt that Leica will deliver WRT IQ and at least be on par or what I geuss even much better than competition.

Throw in my 2c ;)
 

dougpeterson

Workshop Member
Especially if you do not need the "modularity" of todays MF systems with separate camera and back, which is in fact only mainly marketing, as all the cameras come with a dedicated back and is recommended to keep and use a specific bak only with the body you bought - at least this is true for Hasselblad and it might become very similar with Phase.

Was thinking why I need a tech camera if I can do stitching and panos also differently? Why not always use the best part of you lens - even better if a Leica S lens - and produce the stuff you want? And a TS lens will also be available for those who really need this.

End of the day the S System covers a nice area for many photographers, for some it might become even the "only one" system.

And finally I do not doubt that Leica will deliver WRT IQ and at least be on par or what I guess even much better than competition.

Throw in my 2c ;)
Regarding Phase One dropping modularity: I sure hope not; there is no sign in either the history or present approach of the company to suggest this would change. The modularity is one of the strongest attributes of Phase's approach. As one example you can buy a P65+ Mamiya mount and use it with:
Cambo Wide Compact (travel camera - very very small - great lenses)
Cambo Wide RS (shift/tilt/swing/rise for PC or for stitching up to around 200mp within one continous image circle)
Cambo Ultima 2x3 (full sized view camera for still life etc)
Phase One DF (autofocus, autoexposure, leaf shutter lenses, focal plane lenses, pinhole, exotic macro)
Mamiya RZ Pro IID (large waist level viewfinder, old mechanical feel, traditional lens feel)

With all these ways to use your one digital back there are hundreds of lenses each with different looks/feels/lengths/attributes. Each body excels at some things and is weak in others - you can use the body appropriate for your application.

As regards pan-and-stitch versus shooting a tech camera and using it's large image circles to stitch-within-the-image-circle: they are different approaches each with advantages and disadvantages. One advantage of the pan-and-stitch is you can go as wide as you wish (even up to 360 degrees!). One advantage of stitch-within-the-image-circle is you don't lose any part of the frame due to the geometric distortions used to deform and combine the frames in a pan-and-stitch. It's also nice to see the final composition in-camera rather than simply shotgun a scene with a wider-than-needed pan-and-stitch and crop in post - however, that's definition an opinion/personal-decision.

Note however that with a technical camera you could also pan-and-stitch where it is the better option (e.g. for 180 degree images) whereas with an SLR you can only pan-and-stitch.

I don't think anyone here doubts that the S-lenses will be very good; however, it's very unlikely that they will significantly out perform the Schneider/Rodenstock digitar/HR large format lenses in real-world results. There is simply too much of an advantage that Schneider/Rodenstock have in designing lenses with no autofocus, no restraint on rear-flange distance (so retro focus elements don't need to be included), no electrical contacts, and the ability to allow the lens to be a "slow" lens (e.g. f/4 or f/5.6). All lens design is a trade off and Schneider/Rodenstock have the blessing (based on purposeful market positioning) of being able to sacrifice almost everything in pursuit of the absolute best possible final image quality.

All cameras are just a set of priorities and compromises. The S2 looks like it will be a great way to carry very high quality in a easy to use weather sealed, modestly more compact, AF/AE body. However, it will have it's compromises as well (limited lens selection, very limited tilt-shift options etc).

Also a quick note that we have a Cambo Tilt-Swing 47mm XL here at the office (delivered in person by Renee from Cambo) and will be testing it this week. The ability to add precise tilt-swing as well as shift/rise/fall to almost every large format lens is a major major advantage of the tech cameras that support it (Cambo/Arca). Only the Schneider 24/35 and Rodenstock 23 will not be able to made in a tilt-swing variety and those lenses are so wide that tilt/swing is not really critical. Every other Digitar/HR lens can have tilt/swing/rise/fall with the Cambo system. My personal guess is that I will be using 1.5 degrees of tilt as my default for landscape from which I will decide if I want more or less tilt for a given scene.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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Phase One, Leaf, Cambo, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
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georgl

New member
"it's very unlikely that they will significantly out perform the Schneider/Rodenstock digitar/HR large format lenses in real-world results"

I had the chance to take a few shots with Rodenstock-lenses and a P65+ on an Alpa. I don't even think ANY lens could perform better on such a back, they're so close to perfect! MTF looks similar with the S-lenses and that's the trick: It's not about having the fastest, most compact, most rugged, cheapest or high-res system but a clever compromise which makes it usable for many demanding situations. Most 35mm-DSLR-shooters are already shocked when they handle a MF-SLR the first time - but have you ever seen these folks handling an Alpa or tech-camera?
 

dougpeterson

Workshop Member
"it's very unlikely that they will significantly out perform the Schneider/Rodenstock digitar/HR large format lenses in real-world results"

I had the chance to take a few shots with Rodenstock-lenses and a P65+ on an Alpa. I don't even think ANY lens could perform better on such a back, they're so close to perfect! MTF looks similar with the S-lenses and that's the trick: It's not about having the fastest, most compact, most rugged, cheapest or high-res system but a clever compromise which makes it usable for many demanding situations. Most 35mm-DSLR-shooters are already shocked when they handle a MF-SLR the first time - but have you ever seen these folks handling an Alpa or tech-camera?
I think that just about sums it up. "A clever compromise which make it usable for many demanding situations".

Of course I reserve my final judgement until December 3 when we do our hands on testing of a production model to see if the "actual" lives up to the "theoretical".

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Leaf, Cambo, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 *| *Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up
RSS Feed: Subscribe
Buy Capture One at 10% off
 

markowich

New member
"it's very unlikely that they will significantly out perform the Schneider/Rodenstock digitar/HR large format lenses in real-world results"

I had the chance to take a few shots with Rodenstock-lenses and a P65+ on an Alpa. I don't even think ANY lens could perform better on such a back, they're so close to perfect! MTF looks similar with the S-lenses and that's the trick: It's not about having the fastest, most compact, most rugged, cheapest or high-res system but a clever compromise which makes it usable for many demanding situations. Most 35mm-DSLR-shooters are already shocked when they handle a MF-SLR the first time - but have you ever seen these folks handling an Alpa or tech-camera?
i do agree with you. P65+ on alpa with schneider digitar or rodenstocks....nothing comes close in (base iso) IQ.
peter
 

Christopher

Active member
That is perhaps my main problem with the S2. I need a tech camera, because one can't shoot any architecture with just a 30TSE, when it actually comes out. Stitching without shifting only the back is no real alternative. No here is the problem. I could use the S2, for many things, however it would not and can't replace a DSLR system. Which would leave it as a third system. Here strikes the price. Just for the price for one lens, I can buy the new 1DsMk4 or Sony camera when it comes out and can use all my great glass. (Zeiss, Leica, longer Canon stuff) Sure it won't be a S2, but than again it will enable me to save around 40k.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
i do agree with you. P65+ on alpa with schneider digitar or rodenstocks....nothing comes close in (base iso) IQ.
peter
Well I can tell you right now there is not much difference with the P40+ either. It's basically a crop. Obviously it would cut down on MAJOR big size printing compared to the 65 but you get the idea and we are talking big here. It's the same sensor in a crop package. Why I want one. :ROTFL:
 

ptomsu

Workshop Member
Well I can tell you right now there is not much difference with the P40+ either. It's basically a crop. Obviously it would cut down on MAJOR big size printing compared to the 65 but you get the idea and we are talking big here. It's the same sensor in a crop package. Why I want one. :ROTFL:
Guy,

go for it - do not wait any longer!

Definitely a great back. If I would decide for Phase I would take the P40+ ;)
 

Steen

Senior Subscriber Member
I'm not sure why I even commented again on the S2 subject. It has been so over examined, over discussed and is so personal to each member. (...)
It's the headline of this thread that is misleading. A bit like an "Even more fun with Leica S pictures" thread months before the system is released :D

I follow this thread with great interest simply because I find the strategy interesting as a business case. And I think basically that is what we are discussing here.
I agree with Jack that the format, the mount, and the whole form factor may be a wise move.
But I personally believe Leica gets vulnerable by choosing to position itself as a hyperexpensive luxury item brand rather than a competitive quality tools brand.
Hopefully (and probably) Leica is right and I'm wrong. I assume they did their homework analyzing the camera market and its fast development, but I need to admit that so far I don't understand their strategy.
I'm looking forward to learn more.
 

fotografz

Well-known member
It's the headline of this thread that is misleading. A bit like an "Even more fun with Leica S pictures" thread months before the system is released :D

I follow this thread with great interest simply because I find the strategy interesting as a business case. And I think basically that is what we are discussing here.
I agree with Jack that the format, the mount, and the whole form factor may be a wise move.
But I personally believe Leica gets vulnerable by choosing to position itself as a hyperexpensive luxury item brand rather than a competitive quality tools brand.
Hopefully (and probably) Leica is right and I'm wrong. I assume they did their homework analyzing the camera market and its fast development, but I need to admit that so far I don't understand their strategy.
I'm looking forward to learn more.
That is probably the best summation I've heard yet.

"Competitive Quality Brand of tools."

Perhaps more than in other areas of photo gear, LF and MF exemplifies this mindset when it comes to consumer expectations. Finely crafted tools with precision operation and build quality as their hallmarks.

Whether one likes a camera like the Hasselblad H or not, it is well made, and quite precise in operation. Or a finely made view camera ... or tech camera like the Alpa. The competitive set is well established ... and no doubt the S2 will meet those expectations ... but at a price point one would expect it to exceed these already lofty expectations.

Remains to be seen. The eye and hand of the "supposed" target for this camera is well schooled in fine photographic tools.

-Marc
 

ptomsu

Workshop Member
Leica is simply trying to redefine photography - high end and pro photography - with their S System. The invented 35mm and they were successful with that (M System) before they started a more following role during the Japanese DSLR boom.

Now they try to just redefine everything and I can tell you what, aside from any investment thoughts one has made, this is just the right and most appealing thing for me.

If I were to define a new system with my knowledge of what is available today, what can be improved and existing market shares and having in the back of my head what my company can do best, I would most probably come up with a very similar solution. Now Leica obviously did that already some 5 years ago, before they started development of the S System.

I only can say, the longer I watch and follow this, the more impressed I am.

I wish them that they can make the go to market as effective and successful as they did the design and development part.

Kudos Leica!
 

Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
If I were to define a new system with my knowledge of what is available today, what can be improved and existing market shares and having in the back of my head what my company can do best, I would most probably come up with a very similar solution.
IMHO, keeping a 3:2 aspect ratio was S T U P I D. Personally, I much prefer 4:3...
 
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