David,
Normally, I would ignore a comment like this or just pass it off as agreeing to disagree, and wouldn't bother responding. But, in this case, I do believe that pointing out the facts is important. You had asked what the S2 brought to the MF arena and I had responded.
Didn't realize that clicking a back on a camera required a Phd!
Perhaps the PhD comment was a bit over the top. The point that I was trying to make is that just about anyone can pick up the S2 and be familiar with 90+% of its features, functions, and menus within 15 minutes or less. I know that with other existing MFD systems, many dealers will charge an "installation fee" to come in and show you how to use your camera.
The S2 menus are logical and clear. Being an integrated system, you never have to wonder if the setting is on the camera body or the back. Everything just makes sense. My overall point is that it is intuitive. I've personally demoed the S2 to over 30 people one-on-one and almost every single one of them expressed this opinion to me. Many of these people are current owners of other MFD systems. This real feedback, as well as my personal experience, is what leads me to make this statement.
Great and Phase cooked their back in a Microwave oven and then froze it!
Surely the Phase videos are impressive, but I think the point is that you are far more likely to get caught in a rainstorm than stuck in a microwave.
It is also interesting to note that the demonstration was done with
dry ice (no moisture) and not including the camera body or lenses, which probably wouldn't have survived to shoot afterward.
I have personally gotten rained on and done a shoot on the beach, inches from the surf with the S2. Water just isn't a problem for the S2. I've talked to a lot of fashion shooters on this coast and in LA who won't even consider taking their H3Ds to the beach, instead opting to use a Canon or Nikon.
Please, the lens card doesn't wash for now, specially since there's hardly a line up. This is something that we're hoping to see in the future, but not there yet.
Agree that there need to be more lenses. This will come. Unlike the MFDB companies, Leica is an optics company who designs and manufactures its own lenses. These are entirely new designs, created specifically for the 30x45mm format, and specifically for digital capture. Leica currently has 22 lenses in M line, most of which were introduced less than ten years ago. It's hard to doubt Leica's ability to make stellar optics and push the bounds of what is possible.
If we go purely by the MTFs, the S lenses are capable of resolving 40lp/mm at over 80% contrast, wide-open. Leica has always been extremely accurate in this regard.
I'm not sure that maximum aperture can be refuted. I've shot with the 120mm f/2.5 Macro. It is extremely sharp and a stop and a half faster than any existing MF macro lens. The 35mm f/2.5 is also a full stop faster with a maximum distortion of 1.7% at close focus.
Compared to what? Claimed 1.5 images/sec or realistic 1/sec speeds which slows down considerably after the first 8 or 9 frames and a buffer that fills up and comes to a halt after 14-15 shots as opposed to Leaf backs that shoot at very similar frame rates continuously and never hit a buffer wall?
I wasn't actually referring to fps here. I was referring to the speed of image review, zoom 1:1 speed, and scrolling around images. I've experienced the little spinning leaf icon when zooming in on Leaf backs, the pixelization on the H3DII, the progress bar on the Sinar, etc. The Leica is seemingly instantaneous.
Since you bring up the fps, upon rechecking the Leaf specs, the Aptus II fps range from 0.9 to 1.1. So, 1.5 fps on the S2 is roughly 50% faster. In actual use, the S2 really is 1.5 fps.
Nothing new or special here and you're only judging sharpness from some kind of jpg. which can be inaccurate, Leaf already has larger screens and you can judge sharpness from the actual raw file!
Yes, the Leaf has a 3.5" screen. What is the resolution, though? The S2 has a 460K pixel 3" screen. Compare this to the H3DII's 3" LCD at 230K or Phase One's 2.2" 230K LCD. Also, the S2 LCD doesn't wash out in daylight.
:ROTFL: Please, the same range of generic software is available to every other manufacturer too, only the others managed their own dedicated software too.
You need to convert some back's proprietary RAW files in dedicated s/w before using "generic software". This is an extra step. If you put a Phase file directly into LR, you get center-folding. Sinar files have to be brought into eXposure to convert to DNG before being viewable. And, the often-necessary lens corrections become unavailable outside of dedicated s/w. This leaves many with a dual program workflow. For some users this is acceptable, and for others it's a hassle.
With what lens combo and compared to what body, lens, back combo? And so what anyway?
I was comparing the S2 with 70mm to both the H3DII-39 with 80mm and the 645DF with 80mm D lens. For many photographers I've spoken to, as well for myself, a pound (0.5kg) is a big deal.
That's exactly what's in question as of now, the IQ hasn't been established yet.
There are more and more samples coming out as more photographers are getting a chance to shoot with the camera. Leica's goal of late has been to get the camera into the hands of as many top, working professionals who's work demands the quality of medium format. Personally, I've worked with several such professionals as well as demanding advanced amateurs, some of whom are on this forum.
Matter of opinion and the lenses do lack feel for manual focusing.
Another comment I've been hearing lately has been how nice the MF feel is on the S lenses. Two pros I just worked with prefer to manually focus. Both of them felt the S2 provided the best MF feel and viewfinder they had seen to date. One of these pros currently uses Phase backs on the H system, as well as Canon 1DsIII and was literally exclaiming his love for the viewfinder and ease of focus in the midst of his shoot.
Maybe, again I don't see it redefining a class of products.
Having battery life that is literally 4-5x as long as current MFDB systems is a pretty big step. Being able to shoot all day on a single battery. Some may not need this level of battery performance, but again, based on pro feedback, this is a really big deal.
Actually it is $22,995 USD. What is the price for a 645DF/P40+? I think it is pretty close actually. Older backs by other manufactures do represent a great value.
I'll give it that though not unique any longer.
What other medium format system can sync at 1/4000th?
I wish you didn't bring this up, besides your beer shot not a single file from Mark's lot was in focus, I downloaded all of them!
Are we looking at the same files? I haven't read this feedback from anybody else.
Unfortunately things like plans or ways for future upgradability, incomplete lens line up, lack of ability to use lenses from other manufacturers with simple adaptors, as of yet no software with any decent profiles, very high pricing, no MF track record, poor availability, shall I continue? Honestly what is the real tangible incentive for anyone invested other systems or even starting with MF is offered here besides the promise of a red dot?
Just like DSLRs, the upgradability is a new body. The old body can be kept as a backup, sold, or traded in for a new one.
Leica has stated that they will not limit any company from creating adapters for the S system.
When the camera ships in a few weeks, there will be a final profile in LR. For now, the default rendering in both LR and C1 are very good considering there is no profile. Also, with a Colorchecker Passport, one can easily and quickly make a DCR profile. I plan to make an ICC camera profile for C1 as well, using the EyeOne XT system.
Why don't we judge availability once the camera starts shipping?
The bottom line is that many photographers who are happy and satisfied with their existing MFD systems won't find a reason to switch. Current backs, despite modular upgrade paths, have dropped significantly in value. The manufacturers have done an excellent job of devaluing used equipment based on aggressive price wars. As I have always believed, if you are happy with what you have, then stay with what you have. There will be many, though, that do see the S2 as a revolutionary tool and are willing to make the switch. They are not doing this because I told them to, or they have been tricked somehow. It is because they see the value in doing so.
I guess David K is more of a diplomat that I am!
While David K is quite well-spoken and articulate, he always speaks his mind. He wouldn't have made this comment if he didn't mean it. It has nothing to do with diplomacy, but rather actually having tried out the S2 against his existing Sinar system.
Yes, we're all excited about the prospect of a new MF system and many, including me, are hoping that the S2 will be a great product with the support equal or even better than Phase/Leaf, Mamiya and Hasselblad, and I will try it again when I can but for now, its just not there, at least for me.
Yes. Admittedly I am excited about the S2. The statements that I've presented about the camera aren't "marketing hype," results of my enthusiasm, or made because I lack experience with other MFD systems. I have presented facts as well as feedback from real professional photographers.
Respectfully,
David
