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S2 in the "Real World"

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ddk

Guest
Thank you for clearing that up. Now I know how to regard your opinion/comments from now on.
I'm really sorry if unintentionally I offended you Mark. My usual approach to discussions is to be direct, and I realize that sometimes I come across as aggressive, but I feel that there's more value in frankness than trying to beat around the bush.

My exchange with David F. was a discussion between a customer and a vendor. I VERY much want to buy the S2 but I'm not yet convinced. What I wrote is exactly what I would mention if I was standing across the counter from him discussing the sale. Your images turned out to be part of that conversation and I replied with how I see them. I regret offending you in the process, but if you allow me, I'll post your images with an explanation of why I see them that way, and if I'm wrong, I'll apologize again and take what I said back.
 
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Paratom

Well-known member
Congrats Peter,
I think in the end all the MF solutions can deliever great IQ and one can discuss advantages/disadvantages to death - so the most important step IMO is to make one day a decision and use the system.
Enjoy and lets see some images!
Grüße, Tom:thumbup:

My decision is made, I ordered a H3D/39 plus initially 2 lenses - 28 and 100.

Could not resist the great offer (camera really 50% discount, although almost new and full Hasselblad guarantee).

I finally checked how I feel with Phocus this morning, processed some shots and must say, it is pretty good. And as I expect Phocus 2.0 to be even better this became now an area I feel pretty comfortable with. Do not want to compare with C1, but most of the functions I need (use) are there. Will need to change my workflow a bit, but I got used to that as this became a need now at least once a year for me anyway.

And finally the whole deal allows me to upgrade for a H4D/60 next year for again a very attractive offer - which is the really great news. Will see how I get along with the system and if it is ok for me, then I will shoot a Hasselblad 60MP back in a few months.

All that does not mean that I stopped being interested in the S System, maybe I will come back to that system in a year or so when there are more options and one can actually buy this camera and some lenses and there are decent profiles floating around. But for that amount of money I am not willing to take the pain of waiting, not knowing when I finally could get one and then have to live through all the child sicknesses which such a new system is poised to have. Well I really need a working MF digital solution by begin of next year!

As all the offers I got from Phase were not quite near the offer of Hasselblad it made my decision pretty easy :) sorry for them, but I tried really hard over the last 7-9 months, gave them all the chances but it did not work out - please understand this does not refer to my US friends of Capture Integration, who really were very helpful and friendly, but more to the local reps here in Austria. Hasselblad is light years ahead of them in terms of customer support and this is what finally counts with a very heavy weigth - at least for me!

Looking forward to get now into the H System :thumbs:
 
S

Shelby Lewis

Guest
I like what the S2 produces so far. I also like the size and design philosophy behind this system and its flexibility. I like the Leica lenses - admittedly not knowing the S lenses but I am sure they will be outstanding.
To use a prior sentiment, only reversed...

What is the real good thing about the S2? Why do so many people get excited about this new system? Why does the red dot make people turn a switch in their brain and suddenly measure all and everything differently?

:D:D:D:D

Just Razzin' ya, Peter.... Congrats on the Hassy stuff. Make it sing! :)
 

carstenw

Active member
It has nothing to do with the red dot, at least in this thread. The allure is a high-mega-pixel camera which is more compact than 645 cameras, simpler to use, and weather-sealed. The lenses will also almost certainly be of uniformly high quality, although the old Leica magic may not make it across to MF. With a DSLR you have nearly half the resolution, an AA filter and a stable of lenses of uneven quality, and with 645 you have greater weight, funky software and usage, issues with good and bad copies, and so on.

Ultimately, you could just use a DSLR, but then why do you hang around here? :D
 

Steve Hendrix

Well-known member
David,

Normally, I would ignore a comment like this or just pass it off as agreeing to disagree, and wouldn't bother responding. But, in this case, I do believe that pointing out the facts is important. You had asked what the S2 brought to the MF arena and I had responded.



Perhaps the PhD comment was a bit over the top. The point that I was trying to make is that just about anyone can pick up the S2 and be familiar with 90+% of its features, functions, and menus within 15 minutes or less. I know that with other existing MFD systems, many dealers will charge an "installation fee" to come in and show you how to use your camera.

The S2 menus are logical and clear. Being an integrated system, you never have to wonder if the setting is on the camera body or the back. Everything just makes sense. My overall point is that it is intuitive. I've personally demoed the S2 to over 30 people one-on-one and almost every single one of them expressed this opinion to me. Many of these people are current owners of other MFD systems. This real feedback, as well as my personal experience, is what leads me to make this statement.



Surely the Phase videos are impressive, but I think the point is that you are far more likely to get caught in a rainstorm than stuck in a microwave. :D It is also interesting to note that the demonstration was done with dry ice (no moisture) and not including the camera body or lenses, which probably wouldn't have survived to shoot afterward.

I have personally gotten rained on and done a shoot on the beach, inches from the surf with the S2. Water just isn't a problem for the S2. I've talked to a lot of fashion shooters on this coast and in LA who won't even consider taking their H3Ds to the beach, instead opting to use a Canon or Nikon.



Agree that there need to be more lenses. This will come. Unlike the MFDB companies, Leica is an optics company who designs and manufactures its own lenses. These are entirely new designs, created specifically for the 30x45mm format, and specifically for digital capture. Leica currently has 22 lenses in M line, most of which were introduced less than ten years ago. It's hard to doubt Leica's ability to make stellar optics and push the bounds of what is possible.

If we go purely by the MTFs, the S lenses are capable of resolving 40lp/mm at over 80% contrast, wide-open. Leica has always been extremely accurate in this regard.

I'm not sure that maximum aperture can be refuted. I've shot with the 120mm f/2.5 Macro. It is extremely sharp and a stop and a half faster than any existing MF macro lens. The 35mm f/2.5 is also a full stop faster with a maximum distortion of 1.7% at close focus.



I wasn't actually referring to fps here. I was referring to the speed of image review, zoom 1:1 speed, and scrolling around images. I've experienced the little spinning leaf icon when zooming in on Leaf backs, the pixelization on the H3DII, the progress bar on the Sinar, etc. The Leica is seemingly instantaneous.

Since you bring up the fps, upon rechecking the Leaf specs, the Aptus II fps range from 0.9 to 1.1. So, 1.5 fps on the S2 is roughly 50% faster. In actual use, the S2 really is 1.5 fps.



Yes, the Leaf has a 3.5" screen. What is the resolution, though? The S2 has a 460K pixel 3" screen. Compare this to the H3DII's 3" LCD at 230K or Phase One's 2.2" 230K LCD. Also, the S2 LCD doesn't wash out in daylight.



You need to convert some back's proprietary RAW files in dedicated s/w before using "generic software". This is an extra step. If you put a Phase file directly into LR, you get center-folding. Sinar files have to be brought into eXposure to convert to DNG before being viewable. And, the often-necessary lens corrections become unavailable outside of dedicated s/w. This leaves many with a dual program workflow. For some users this is acceptable, and for others it's a hassle.



I was comparing the S2 with 70mm to both the H3DII-39 with 80mm and the 645DF with 80mm D lens. For many photographers I've spoken to, as well for myself, a pound (0.5kg) is a big deal.



There are more and more samples coming out as more photographers are getting a chance to shoot with the camera. Leica's goal of late has been to get the camera into the hands of as many top, working professionals who's work demands the quality of medium format. Personally, I've worked with several such professionals as well as demanding advanced amateurs, some of whom are on this forum.



Another comment I've been hearing lately has been how nice the MF feel is on the S lenses. Two pros I just worked with prefer to manually focus. Both of them felt the S2 provided the best MF feel and viewfinder they had seen to date. One of these pros currently uses Phase backs on the H system, as well as Canon 1DsIII and was literally exclaiming his love for the viewfinder and ease of focus in the midst of his shoot.



Having battery life that is literally 4-5x as long as current MFDB systems is a pretty big step. Being able to shoot all day on a single battery. Some may not need this level of battery performance, but again, based on pro feedback, this is a really big deal.



Actually it is $22,995 USD. What is the price for a 645DF/P40+? I think it is pretty close actually. Older backs by other manufactures do represent a great value.



What other medium format system can sync at 1/4000th?



Are we looking at the same files? I haven't read this feedback from anybody else.



Just like DSLRs, the upgradability is a new body. The old body can be kept as a backup, sold, or traded in for a new one.

Leica has stated that they will not limit any company from creating adapters for the S system.

When the camera ships in a few weeks, there will be a final profile in LR. For now, the default rendering in both LR and C1 are very good considering there is no profile. Also, with a Colorchecker Passport, one can easily and quickly make a DCR profile. I plan to make an ICC camera profile for C1 as well, using the EyeOne XT system.

Why don't we judge availability once the camera starts shipping?

The bottom line is that many photographers who are happy and satisfied with their existing MFD systems won't find a reason to switch. Current backs, despite modular upgrade paths, have dropped significantly in value. The manufacturers have done an excellent job of devaluing used equipment based on aggressive price wars. As I have always believed, if you are happy with what you have, then stay with what you have. There will be many, though, that do see the S2 as a revolutionary tool and are willing to make the switch. They are not doing this because I told them to, or they have been tricked somehow. It is because they see the value in doing so.



While David K is quite well-spoken and articulate, he always speaks his mind. He wouldn't have made this comment if he didn't mean it. It has nothing to do with diplomacy, but rather actually having tried out the S2 against his existing Sinar system.



Yes. Admittedly I am excited about the S2. The statements that I've presented about the camera aren't "marketing hype," results of my enthusiasm, or made because I lack experience with other MFD systems. I have presented facts as well as feedback from real professional photographers.

Respectfully,

David

David:

I'm sure you're a nice guy and mean well. And I haven't really wanted to butt in up to this point. But the fact is Capture Integration is now an authorized Leica dealer and as such, it's certainly a thread that has our attention.

The problem I have is that you just don't have the knowledge or experence to know how the S2 will compare to medium format digital systems. And this is evidenced by the slew of inaccurate, misleading - and just plain wrong - information you sling about medium format products and companies in your defense of the S2 system. I would think that since you consider yourself a journalist - in your words - you would do better research before you write something.

But no amount of research would really benefit your argument anyway. First off, you don't sell medium format digital products. So your opinion, based on research or whatever, has to be taken with a very heavy grain of salt regardless. Secondly, if you did actually want to attempt to be objective, you don't have the years of experience and everyday knowledge of these systems that would be required in order for you to be so.

And frankly, I find your attempts to make commentary on the aspects of competitive products distasteful and not in keeping with respectful values that are largely upheld by the likes of David Grover, Yair Shahar, and others.

I can promise everyone here, that when we evaluate the S2 product and compare it to medium format systems, it will be an informed comparison, based on years of real world, first hand experience. And regardless of our conclusions, the result will be an objective comparative evaluation with regard to the products that we sell, not products we don't sell and have little knowledge of.


Steve Hendrix
 
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Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
I cannot help but add a few thoughts to this thread.

First is, these are just cameras folks, so let's remember we all share a passion for photography! :)

Next is choices will be made by most folks based on perceived bangs for the buck -- and the population of how those decisions are made will fall into a spread conforming to a normal, bell-shaped curve... So sure, true believers on the Leica, Phase or Hassy (or Leaph?) side will remain stalwart supporters regardless of results, as will the stalwart detractors on the other sides. But at the end of the day I suspect for most users it's going to come to deciding on the bang for the buck proposition. And that bang can be image quality, portability, system modularity, look from the lenses, breadth and depth of lenses and accessories, or even just brand name, or whatever the heck else yanks their cranks -- but at at the specific price-point thresholds for each individual. So in the end, there's not going to be one right or wrong choice, only different choices based on differing needs, biases and means.

Damn, that is good, isn't it? I may use that paragraph as my new standard test disclaimer!!! :ROTFL::ROTFL::ROTFL:
 

paulmoore

New member
while I think the new S2 lenses are amazing it is the wholeness of the system, the sum of all the parts, that causes me to like and desire the S2. No, it is not flawless..but close enough for me to want to get one..I have seen enough of its potential. This is what it comes down to for me, the camera delivers as big a file as you would want in a handheld package and does so in a beautiful way. I love my dmr for small camera work and the S2 makes my DMR look and feel like a dinosaur. I too need to keep a tech camera and back for certain view camera applications that all reflexs just can't do.
I don't specialize in people, or events, so I have never got addicted to a dslr workflow with multiple af zones and high burst rates, etc. I know what i like and need in a camera for my type of work and judge a system based on those needs.
It amazes me that there are some who feel many photographers buy equipment based on brand identity and not on performance..image and otherwise. It seems to me those are the ones who have been brain washed and have a knee jerk reaction to the Leica logo..makes them see red when they hear someone like david f point out its features and capabilities. I am sure he would and has suggested that you decide for yourselves as to what it can do.
Maybe once guy gives it the once over and validates its standout abilites and weaknesses then others can decide if it is for them.. but as guy has said so many times you need to shoot and process the stuff yourself to determine if it fits you.
 
I'm really sorry if unintentionally I offended you Mark. My usual approach to discussions is to be direct, and I realize that sometimes I come across as aggressive, but I feel that there's more value in frankness than trying to beat around the bush.

My exchange with David F. was a discussion between a customer and a vendor. I VERY much want to buy the S2 but I'm not yet convinced. What I wrote is exactly what I would mention if I was standing across the counter from him discussing the sale. Your images turned out to be part of that conversation and I replied with how I see them. I regret offending you in the process, but if you allow me, I'll post your images with an explanation of why I see them that way, and if I'm wrong, I'll apologize again and take what I said back.
David, I wasn't offended by your comment. I simply disagree with you and believe it is easy to see the point of focus in most, if not all, of the photos I posted and uploaded. My problem with your comment is that it wasn't "direct" as you purport, it was more like a slur without any objective evidence to support your statement. You put it out there as if it was fact and it is not.

Critical focus is only one part of the equation to achieve a good photo - there are many other factors, such as those mentioned by Victor, which degrade a photo which is otherwise in focus. I took the photos in question (except the beer bottle and skyline) and I know where I focused each frame as well as the dynamic conditions of each photo. Based on this experience and my experience with other autofocus dSLRs, I found the S2 focus to be very accurate. Everyone is certainly entitled to their opinion, however it would be nice if it is stated as opinion rather than fact. Enough said about this as far as I am concerned.

To answer Victor's question, the S2 focus does not really hunt much. It may go past the point of intended focus once maybe twice and then back, but it doesn't go back and forth much at all. It feels very sure about what it is doing. Another thing about the S2 autofocus which is different than other other cameras I have used is that the camera does not refocus if the subject distance doesn't change (at least it's not audibly noticable) between presses of the autofocus button. For example, if the camera is set on a tripod and framed on a static subject, the autofocus will achieve focus on the first press of the button, but on subsequent presses of the button it doesn't hunt for focus again. I don't know what the threshold of distance change is to cause refocus or if it is in fact refocusing and its such a small step that I can't sense it. Other cameras I have used would attempt to find focus by racking the lens back and forth with each press of the button. The autofocus makes a little more noise than the ultrasonic motors in Canon lenses when focusing, but the noise is not objectionable to me. I posted my thoughts on S2 focusing in my "Another S2 Experience" thread yesterday (http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12062).

Edit: corrected typo
 
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Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
My decision is made, I ordered a H3D/39 plus initially 2 lenses - 28 and 100.

Could not resist the great offer (camera really 50% discount, although almost new and full Hasselblad guarantee).

I finally checked how I feel with Phocus this morning, processed some shots and must say, it is pretty good. And as I expect Phocus 2.0 to be even better this became now an area I feel pretty comfortable with. Do not want to compare with C1, but most of the functions I need (use) are there. Will need to change my workflow a bit, but I got used to that as this became a need now at least once a year for me anyway.
Congratulations Peter! You've made a fine choice.

(However, I have to admit to a wee bit of confusion given the extremely positive comments you made after that recent C1 demo I gave you!)

;),
 
I cannot help but add a few thoughts to this thread.

First is, these are just cameras folks, so let's remember we all share a passion for photography! :)

Next is choices will be made by most folks based on perceived bangs for the buck -- and the population of how those decisions are made will fall into a spread conforming to a normal, bell-shaped curve... So sure, true believers on the Leica, Phase or Hassy (or Leaph?) side will remain stalwart supporters regardless of results, as will the stalwart detractors on the other sides. But at the end of the day I suspect for most users it's going to come to deciding on the bang for the buck proposition. And that bang can be image quality, portability, system modularity, look from the lenses, breadth and depth of lenses and accessories, or even just brand name, or whatever the heck else yanks their cranks -- but at at the specific price-point thresholds for each individual. So in the end, there's not going to be one right or wrong choice, only different choices based on differing needs, biases and means.

Damn, that is good, isn't it? I may use that paragraph as my new standard test disclaimer!!! :ROTFL::ROTFL::ROTFL:
Yes, that is very good.
 

David K

Workshop Member
David:

I'm sure you're a nice guy and mean well. And I haven't really wanted to butt in up to this point. But the fact is Capture Integration is now an authorized Leica dealer and as such, it's certainly a thread that has our attention.

The problem I have is that you just don't have the knowledge or experence to know how the S2 will compare to medium format digital systems. And this is evidenced by the slew of inaccurate, misleading - and just plain wrong - information you sling about medium format products and companies in your defense of the S2 system. I would think that since you consider yourself a journalist - in your words - you would do better research before you write something.

But no amount of research would really benefit your argument anyway. First off, you don't sell medium format digital products. So your opinion, based on research or whatever, has to be taken with a very heavy grain of salt regardless. Secondly, if you did actually want to attempt to be objective, you don't have the years of experience and everyday knowledge of these systems that would be required in order for you to be so.

And frankly, I find your attempts to make commentary on the aspects of competitive products distasteful and not in keeping with respectful values that are largely upheld by the likes of David Grover, Yair Shahar, and others.

I can promise everyone here, that when we evaluate the S2 product and compare it to medium format systems, it will be an informed comparison, based on years of real world, first hand experience. And regardless of our conclusions, the result will be an objective comparative evaluation with regard to the products that we sell, not products we don't sell and have little knowledge of.


Steve Hendrix
Have I missed one of David F's posts that was distasteful or disrespectful towards a competitive brand? I certainly don't see anything in the quotation that would qualify. And to suggest to someone that he should do better research before posting, but even if he had it wouldn't matter because his opinion needs to be taken with a grain of salt isn't what I'd call constructive advice. Steve, I know you for many years and have the highest respect for both your knowledge and professionalism. I don't know David Grover, have only met Yair once but share your high opinion of them from reading their many posts. You may all represent different products and have different opinions but there's a mutual respect that you accord each other that is one of the hallmarks (to me) of a professional. While David doesn't have the MF experience you or Yair or David G might have he's a very well regarded and long time Leica dealer. Since he is a member of the ranks of MF dealers, albeit a junior one, why not welcome him to the fold and, if you think he's out of line, send him a private message and tell him where he's stepping out of line.
 

carstenw

Active member
I agree, I felt that your post was very harsh without containing enough detail to support what you wrote, Steve. I would much prefer to read good-humoured factual rebuttals than see reps go on the offensive like that.
 

Bob

Administrator
Staff member
Gentle Readers:
Referring to forum rules:
3) Arguing, rudeness, generally poor or negative behavior will be dealt with at moderator discretion as they see fit. This may result in the offending post(s) or entire thread(s) being deleted with or without explanation, and/or the offending poster(s) being banned or having their accounts suspended or erased. Note that broader topical and emotional latitude is tolerated in the "Sunset Bar" forum, but decisions on thread or post appropriateness remain at moderator discretion there as well.​
Please do not tempt the Mods

so please, PLEASE refer to forum rule Nr.1
1) Keep your discussions polite, fun and on topic. In short, act like you would at a friend's dinner party.​
Now, please return to your seats and carry on
 
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Steve Hendrix

Well-known member
I am sorry if I came across harsh or un-fun. I didn't know "fun" posts were a requirement.

I don't think anything I said was rude or would even be considered arguing. I simply pointed out that the information from David is incorrect, which is no big deal, other than that David has a potential agenda which may propel him to not do his proper homework. Or maybe he's just careless, I don't know. And that David may be perceived as an authority for the information he is providing that forum members may take as factual and act upon (to their detriment).

I simply pointed out facts.

I did not disparage competitive products.
I did not provide misleading and inaccurate information on those products.

If the moderators feel I have done a disservice to the forum by pointing this out, then I guess I'm unsure what benefit we can serve, if not to provide factual information that forum members may make appropriate decisions on. In fact - that is what we, Capture Integration, are known for.

If it came across as too pointed, I apologize. But I stand 100% by what I said.


Steve Hendrix
 
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carstenw

Active member
Steve, you said David was wrong, but you didn't point out why. That can hardly be claimed to be based in fact. You also implied strongly that he was inexperienced and that CI would do a proper professional job. While this may or may not be true, it comes across quite arrogant to say so.
 

David K

Workshop Member
I
If it came across as too pointed, I apologize. But I stand 100% by what I said.
Steve Hendrix
Well, in the spirit of fun, that's the kind of apologies I get from my wife :) I consider both you and David as friends and I'm quite certain that when you guys finally meet you will like each other as well.
 

bensonga

Well-known member
My decision is made, I ordered a H3D/39 plus initially 2 lenses - 28 and 100.
Looking forward to get now into the H System :thumbs:
Congratulations Peter! If I could afford one, I'd have one too....and to think you could be using an H4D/60 next year is icing on the cake!

Enjoy the new kit.....look forward to seeing some of you images here at GetDPI.

Gary
 

Steve Hendrix

Well-known member
Well, in the spirit of fun, that's the kind of apologies I get from my wife :) I consider both you and David as friends and I'm quite certain that when you guys finally meet you will like each other as well.
I am sure of this as well. This industry is filled with great people and this is not personal in any way, and as I said, perhaps too pointed. I withdraw the pointedness.


Steve Hendrix
 

Steve Hendrix

Well-known member
Steve, you said David was wrong, but you didn't point out why. That can hardly be claimed to be based in fact. You also implied strongly that he was inexperienced and that CI would do a proper professional job. While this may or may not be true, it comes across quite arrogant to say so.

Carsten:

The fact is, when it comes to knowledge of medium format systems, David is inexperienced. I don't think I'm implying that, I'm stating it. It's a fact, not a claim. I also did not imply CI would do a "proper professional job", I stated that it would be a comparison based on years of real world experience, and that we would not make claims about products we have little hands on knowledge of. I think I'm pretty clear there.

Since you've asked for it - I'll provide some examples of misleading or inaccurate information:

The point that I was trying to make is that just about anyone can pick up the S2 and be familiar with 90+% of its features, functions, and menus within 15 minutes or less. I know that with other existing MFD systems, many dealers will charge an "installation fee" to come in and show you how to use your camera.
Full service training with in depth instruction of both hardware and software is offered by informed dealers and is available for clients. David is implying this is required to become familiar with the camera. The fact is most users are able to get familiar with Hasselblad, Leaf, Phase One and Sinar backs/cameras within a similar period of time without dealer instruction. The vast majority of fee-based dealer instruction is spent on software.

Surely the Phase videos are impressive, but I think the point is that you are far more likely to get caught in a rainstorm than stuck in a microwave. :D It is also interesting to note that the demonstration was done with dry ice (no moisture) and not including the camera body or lenses, which probably wouldn't have survived to shoot afterward.
If David was familiar with the Phase One videos he would realize there is a video of the Phase One digital back and camera being used during a monsoon in India, during which the Canon system the photographer was also using, failed.


Unlike the MFDB companies, Leica is an optics company who designs and manufactures its own lenses.
Phase One is a majority holder in the Mamiya corporation, which I believe does indeed design and manufacture lenses, as does Hasselblad.

If you put a Phase file directly into LR, you get center-folding.
I have seen one incidence of density shift with a Phase One digital back with a Dalsa sensor out of the thousands sold and I have never seen a Kodak based Phase One back exhibit centerfold.



Having battery life that is literally 4-5x as long as current MFDB systems is a pretty big step.
I've shot all day with Hasselblad and Phase One systems on 2 batteries. While the S2 will have improved battery life, it is not 5 times MFDB's.

dfarkas; *This is from David's blog said:
I say theoretically because in most cases, in order to get all the new features of a camera or digital back, you are forced to upgrade the other components as well.
Ridiculous. Phase One owners who upgraded from P backs to P+ backs could put the Plus backs on their existing camera and get every feature of the Plus units. Leaf Aptus S owners who upgraded Aptus got nearly twice the speed just by putting the back on their same camera.



Carsten, these aren't huge lies or anything, they're sometimes just wrong and other times just unsubstantiated. I said earlier that it didn't bother me that much that he was disparaging competitors, but I guess yes it does bother me. Before we decided to pick up the Leica line and sell the S2, Capture Integration wasn't on here putting down the S2, especially with incorrect information.

We talk about what we sell, not what we don't . Because what we find is that when we do talk about what we don't sell, we aren't that accurate. That's what is happening here. David should learn to follow the same course.


Steve Hendrix
 
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