leica red figures

[Guy Mancuso]

Well Carsten it really is just a evolutionary camera . Basically the bottom line on it is the same sensor just bigger so that contract with Kodak can most likely can be held in check price wise with just going bigger instead of a whole new chip from another OEM at maybe higher costs. So they probably got a nice deal on just getting bigger and really the rest is just firmware but a new body had to be made and really just a new shell had to be done. Obviously looking at it from the surface side it is just a bigger upgrade and can still keep a 7k price tag on it. Obviously some assumptions there as well but it is a improved camera by a good deal now. Certainly more desirable to many people so right now a nice successful upgrade from the M8 but most likely still able to keep a lot of internal costs down as well and still hold vendor contracts on some parts from 2006 of the M8. So in Leica's eyes a winner financially.

 

[carstenw]

I agree, the M9 is certainly a better and nicer camera than the M8, but personally, for the difference of about €5500-€2000=€3500 if I sell the M8, it just isn't worth it for me at this point. The Contax/Sinar takes care of my high-res needs, and the M8 of the more spontaneous shots. At some point I will certainly move up, but I am in no rush.

Good for Leica that they pulled it off though, even if it is more evolutionary than revolutionary. With the money they earn from all the pent-up demand for the M9, they can spend some more time designing the M10 with a stronger processor, higher-res screen, and a couple of other needed upgrades.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Well the bottom line for their camera division at least the M9 maybe considered their bread and butter money. I'm sure the X1 once released will cause some stir. I hear through the grapevine it is pretty good image quality. I get to play with one in over a week, should be interesting. Even though it sounds expensive compared to other systems like it , most likely having the Red dot people will buy it regardless.

 

[beamon]

It depends on their future decisions - what will they do with the money earned and know-how generated with M9/S2/X1?

Renege, I hope, on their statement about "no R10" and get about developing and marketing an R10 Digital! The market potential will dwarf that of the S2.

 

[carstenw]

I guess the X1 will sell. Leica has a good reputation, although they are probably too expensive for what they are in the P&S area. People will pay more just to have the peace of mind of knowing that the camera is good, even if the price is high, I guess. Leica has managed to make good money from the D-Lux 2 and D-Lux 3, so this counts as their first attempt at making their own high-end P&S, I suppose. I hope it works out. Interesting camera, but not really my favorite focal length.

 

[carstenw]

Roger, I tend to think that if Leica makes good money with the M9, X1 and S2, and all indications are that the demand is good (so far), then they can reconsider entering the single-lens reflex market with a ground-up digital design. They would certainly add backwards compatibility with the R.

 

[georgl]

I agree, the M9 is only an evolutionary step over the M8. M-users wanted a full-frame-M but Leica was busy developing an entirely new digital system for a good reason: they didn't want to depend on the M-system alone.
They were looking at the market to find a gap within the offerings, just like the M and X fills a gap. The S-System (not just the S2 but also the whole market for Leica) was the answer, while they realized that the market below is going to be EVIL (at least that's what was suggested).

 

[Guy Mancuso]

I know folks are holding out for a R system but I really believe no way in hell will they ever get there. Dead comes to mind on R. It's just over and too much a market to get into and a marketing hell going up against Canon and Nikon.

 

[vieri]

I know folks are holding out for a R system but I really believe no way in hell will they ever get there. Dead comes to mind on R. It's just over and too much a market to get into and a marketing hell going up against Canon and Nikon.

Guy, unfortunately for the R system, I totally agree with you on this one. I think Leica's idea of their future in the DSLR arena is in the S2; in fact, I think that Leica's idea of the DSLR future per se is that 35 mm digital reached its limits, and the future developments are in bigger-sensor camera systems like the S2, and they wanted to be the first on the starting block. Now, wether this is true, wether Nikon and Canon are thinking about going big (S2-like), wether they will and if so when & how, this is something else and topic for a wider discussion - I am not sure they would give up to their actual line-ups for this, in case I think that 35 mm DSLR will stay as a amateur-prosumer thing; but, it's a bit now since such rumors got started re: Nikon going bigger than 35 mm. Leica choose to be leading the herd, which can grant them a position advantage, but imagine if Nikon and/or Canon will go big as well, at half the price, with a wider lens line-up, more accessories right off the bat, and all of them cheaper than Leicas? that would be very interesting for us all, but for now we have to play the wait-and-see game and we need to take photos in the meantime - now where is that Phase case :ROTFL:

 

[carstenw]

The cultural shift required at, say, Canon to produce a new camera, new format, new lenses, which in some ways compete with their existing lineup will almost certainly prevent them from following in these footsteps. The Japanese can be very conservative. Leica can do it because they lost the R battle and are not competing against themselves. If they ever re-enter the DSLR market, I can only imagine that they would position their new R so that there is a smooth step up to the S.

 

[stephengilbert]

Mods,

Shouldn't this thread be in the Leica forum?

Steve

 

[Mike M]

We know very little about Mr. Kaufmanns influence within the family-company which has in fact immense economic power, especially since Leica is an unusual investment. Speculating about these things without further facts is propably just harmful - we should be happy that he seems to be willing to invest against all odds and protect them for other short-sighted investors.
It will take Leica at least a decade to become a solid company again as it was before the Leitz-family sold it in the late 60s. We have to learn again to think in long terms: it's not about the S2, it's about the investment into a new market. It's not about this year or next year, it's about the long-term perspective.
They have three new cameras/systems - all in a unique market position, Many competitors went bankrupt or "crazy". I think they haven't got this opportunity since the introduction of the M3. It depends on their future decisions - what will they do with the money earned and know-how generated with M9/S2/X1?

100% agreement

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Since we went OT a touch thinking ahead I think the next revolutionary step for Nikon and Canon, Canon especially since they build there own is looking at 5.5 or 5.8 micron size sensors with the same quality features pack more of those MPX in the same size chip but again this is a next step and the technology needs to get there.Or make a whole new S2 size or close to it size sensor than make new glass. Canon as big as they are can really do anything they want even take a big loss and not fee the pain. They have a much more risk / reward option going since they are very flush in the whole market. Not just camera's but the whole company. I don't have the crystal ball but Leica may have really spurned canon andNikon on for this gap market as well. Time will tell.

 

[yaya]

Since we went OT a touch thinking ahead I think the next revolutionary step for Nikon and Canon, Canon especially since they build there own is looking at 5.5 or 5.8 micron size sensors with the same quality features pack more of those MPX in the same size chip but again this is a next step and the technology needs to get there.Or make a whole new S2 size or close to it size sensor than make new glass. Canon as big as they are can really do anything they want even take a big loss and not fee the pain. They have a much more risk / reward option going since they are very flush in the whole market. Not just camera's but the whole company. I don't have the crystal ball but Leica may have really spurned canon andNikon on for this gap market as well. Time will tell.

IMO Canon's next step should be putting the 5DII's chip inside a mirror-less video camera with an EOS lens mount...

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Also a great idea, seems us still guy's maybe holding very still in the future. Good point Yair

Not making me happy though. Might have to hang up the straps at that point