LuLa Review of S2 is available

[robmac]

While sadly true that FW is on way out (at least in non-Mac Pros) and USB2.0 may future proof the S2 a bit, FW is still the standard and should have been used IMHO. What matters for successful launch of this thing in the STATED target market will be performance vs current alternatives.

They should have tested both types of connection and picked the fastest given the likely firmware on release. I think people consider firmware updates too much of a panacea. They can only do so much, especially if hardware constraints are in the way.

What I find truly idiotic is the use of a proprietary (and likely spendy) cable. WTF were they thinking? Not only will getting x spares of these things be hard on camera release (hope they made A LOT), but this is just what someone needs. A critical but (one can assume) needlessly spendy, hard-to-get-in-a-hurry, pseudo-consumable that does the same thing as units they can get by the handful from almost any department/electronics/camera/computer store in the country, their DSLR kit or their Phase/Mamiya/Hassy studio mate for nothing or next to it in 10 mins. Brilliant.

 

[Jack]

Yes most of the stuff looks really nice, another thing I did not like that much is the viewfinder coverage. I think I would just expect a lot more than spending 18k on a camera. I mean that is probably one point why I would prefer a 1DsMk3 over a 5DMk2.

I shoot a 1Ds3 over a 5D2 for precisely this reason. Better build and AF are others, but frame coverage is huge for me.

Yes, Michael's statement about 93-95% coverage is at odds with Leica's claim of 96%, I think. 100% would be perfect, of course.

Actually, I think 105% would be even better in most cameras. Fact is, I see this as a negative in my recent move to the P65+ --- with the P45+ I had roughly a 110% VF, giving me a clear border all the way around the frame, now with the P65+ I'm pushed right up against the stops. Maybe I'll get 100.5% if I'm lucky...

 

[yaya]

While sadly true that FW is on way out (at least in non-Mac Pros) and USB2.0 may future proof the S2 a bit, FW is still the standard and should have been used IMHO. What matters for successful launch of this thing in the STATED target market will be performance vs current alternatives.

They should have tested both types of connection and picked the fastest given the likely firmware on release. I think people consider firmware updates too much of a panacea. They can only do so much, especially if hardware constraints are in the way.

I don't believe the type of connection chosen is the issue here.

The camera needs to be able to push the data down the cable and the software needs to be able to read it quickly and consistently.

This is not trivial when we're talking 40-50-60 MB of raw data every time you press the shutter. You will notice that some companies use lossless compression technology which may help, depending on the computer configuration.

Smaller files also help in terms of storage space and transfer time...

 

[robmac]

You raise some good points. Higher MAXIMUM theoretical hardware transfer rates are nice (e.g. USB2 vs FW800), but if either' can outpace the capability of the software+firmware, the hardware's not the choke point. In the LuLa test the computer hardware wasn't an issue as same system was used for both cameras. Great balanced test and having the video was a brilliant idea...

 

[Guy Mancuso]

From what I noticed the S2 is a full 70mg Raw file. Not sure if they have a loosless compression file, let's assume they do like the M9 which would be handy. Phase has two lossless setting Q for my P30+ approx. 35mg and S is approx. 22mg . Obviously the P40+ would be more. Not sure what Leaf and Hassy files do in this regard on lossless files but it does help buffer and space obviously plus I know I can pretty much shoot continuously on my P30+ tethered for quite awhile. I have not tested this in practice and maybe Doug, David G and Yair can comment on each platform. But one would assume the lossless helps. On the same note I never noticed any quality difference between the Q and S settings.

Leica S2 tethering cord is obviously proprietary which I agree is not really a great thing in the field. It goes down no way to run to a electronics store and get a replacement. It does have a nice pull feature that you can actually hold the camera by the cord and it won't fall out. I will wait to get the S2 next week or so and comment further since I would like to get more familiar with it more to report.

This is somewhat the same scenario on batteries . I know many Phase and leaf shooters are not happy with separate batteries for body and back. Well there is also a advantage less power being used on the back battery by not running the camera battery and camera batteries are AA batteries which again can be found anywhere ( obviously need two chargers). So yes advantage and a disadvantages. Leica and Hassy batteries run the whole show so nice and convenient but it will run down faster as well. Obviously different opinions on which is preferred for end user. Now Phase and Leica do have vertical grips as well coming so another consideration to think about and I am pretty sure they take the back battery for the Phase and the Leica s2 takes on two batteries in the grip.

In regard to battery life . Obviously this all comes down to chimping and such plus review time and playback time not to mention zooming. So be careful on these battery life comments, not sure what everyone is doing and how they work as well.

 

[yaya]

It does have a nice pull feature that you can actually hold the camera by the cord and it won't fall out.

Great...providing that the camera comes with a heavy Foba studio stand as otherwise you trip over the cable and your 30K camera is on the floor...(been there, done that...lived to tell the story...)

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Yair there is some kind of release on that and hopefully I will report more on it and yes I do agree i lost a laptop like this in the way past when cord would not release and my laptop hit the deck and cracked the screen in a million pieces. Not a happy moment and good point here. I know the CI folks will get the Camera this week for testing before Jack and I and hopefully Steve , Doug and crew can report on this as well.

 

[dougpeterson]

While sadly true that FW is on way out (at least in non-Mac Pros) and USB2.0 may future proof the S2 a bit, FW is still the standard and should have been used IMHO.

I see this opinion written constantly. All current MacBookPro, iMac, Mac Mini, and Mac Pro models feature Firewire 800. IMO (and it's nothing more than an educated guess) the removal of Firewire from the MacBook Non-Pro was to allow Apple to lower the price of the entry level MacBook (recession inspired) without threatening the migration of pro customers to the non pro laptop.

I strongly strongly suspect that the pro versions of Apple's computers will ship with firewire* for at least two more generations (I'd guess longer, but it's foolhardy to make any predictions about computers more than two generations out).

*May be FireWire 3200, but that will be compatible with FW800/400.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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[dougpeterson]

I don't believe the type of connection chosen is the issue here.

The camera needs to be able to push the data down the cable and the software needs to be able to read it quickly and consistently.

This is not trivial when we're talking 40-50-60 MB of raw data every time you press the shutter. You will notice that some companies use lossless compression technology which may help, depending on the computer configuration.

Smaller files also help in terms of storage space and transfer time...

Agreed. It's easy to simplify this to USB vs. FireWire. But there are many components between the sensor and the monitor when it comes to tethered performance. Phase/Leaf/Hassy have been optimizing every part of that chain for several generations.

I'm anxious to see what Leica does about this prior to shipping. For instance it may be possible for them to enable JPG-to-Computer RAW-to-CF-Card. That's not an option with Phase/Leaf/Hassy and is a great way to get exceptionally fast transfer speeds. By the way, I'm completely speculating here - I have no inside information on this topic.

We'll ask our friends at Leica at our December 3rd Leica Open House.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Leaf, Cambo, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 *| *Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up
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[David Grover / Phase One]

From what I noticed the S2 is a full 70mg Raw file. Not sure if they have a loosless compression file, let's assume they do like the M9 which would be handy. Phase has two lossless setting Q for my P30+ approx. 35mg and S is approx. 22mg . Obviously the P40+ would be more. Not sure what Leaf and Hassy files do in this regard on lossless files but it does help buffer and space obviously plus I know I can pretty much shoot continuously on my P30+ tethered for quite awhile. I have not tested this in practice and maybe Doug, David G and Yair can comment on each platform...

Raw files shot to the CF card on the H3D are losslessly [Sic?] compressed and remain so after transferring to Phocus.

File size varies a bit shot to shot, but it certainly opens up more space on the CF card and makes transferring quicker.

D

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Thanks David helpful info as always.

 

[David Grover / Phase One]

I see this opinion written constantly. All current MacBookPro, iMac, Mac Mini, and Mac Pro models feature Firewire 800. IMO (and it's nothing more than an educated guess) the removal of Firewire from the MacBook Non-Pro was to allow Apple to lower the price of the entry level MacBook (recession inspired) without threatening the migration of pro customers to the non pro laptop.

I strongly strongly suspect that the pro versions of Apple's computers will ship with firewire* for at least two more generations (I'd guess longer, but it's foolhardy to make any predictions about computers more than two generations out).

*May be FireWire 3200, but that will be compatible with FW800/400.

I don't think Apple would lose Firewire either. It is not just us who depend upon it but some sectors of motion industry as well.

Also eSata maybe ok for hard drives but as far as I understand doesn't have the right kind of protocols for something like we need.

David

 

[jlm]

i was under the impression that Hasselblad only sent the .3FR files to the CF card and .fff directly to the tethered computer...

 

[David Grover / Phase One]

That's right Jim. But the .fff's which go directly to the computer are also compressed in a similar fashion.

The only real difference from 3fr - > FFF is that the FFF has a larger JPEG preview built in which is created on import. The 3fr has a tiny one which is displayed on the LCD immediately after capture (as you would expect!)

 

[robmac]

Hope you're right. While find it a bit disconcerting that all the non-Mac Pro machines are down to one lonely FW800 port vs 4 (stock) on the Pros; it does seem to be a (very) small way Apple is trying to differentiate it's more pro-centric or pro-capable machines from more consumer-centric ones.

On the flip-side, trying to find a FW drive in a local shop is like trying to pull teeth - wall-to-bloody-wall USB2.

I don't think Apple would lose Firewire either. It is not just us who depend upon it but some sectors of motion industry as well.

Also eSata maybe ok for hard drives but as far as I understand doesn't have the right kind of protocols for something like we need.

David

 

[yaya]

From what I noticed the S2 is a full 70mg Raw file. Not sure if they have a loosless compression file, let's assume they do like the M9 which would be handy. Phase has two lossless setting Q for my P30+ approx. 35mg and S is approx. 22mg . Obviously the P40+ would be more. Not sure what Leaf and Hassy files do in this regard on lossless files but it does help buffer and space obviously plus I know I can pretty much shoot continuously on my P30+ tethered for quite awhile. I have not tested this in practice and maybe Doug, David G and Yair can comment on each platform. But one would assume the lossless helps. On the same note I never noticed any quality difference between the Q and S settings.

An Aptus-II 10 (56MP), for example will create a ~52MB file when shooting to CF card and ~61MB When tethered, both lossless compression.

On a slow Mac, shooting compressed (tethered) can sometimes be a bit slower than shooting uncompressed. Fo that you can opt to shoot uncompressed but you then get a much bigger file (~112MB)

 

[Don Libby]

I’ll start by saying I really don’t have a dog in this fight. That said there’s two (okay more than) reasons the S2 simply doesn’t appeal to me.

One – I like separate components; I like having a body and back. I like the utter ease of cleaning the sensor on a back that can be separated from the body and this is huge factor for me. Two – and I’m on the fence on this one – the ratio to sensor size. Is this a 35mm on steroids or a medium format?

I do like the idea of dual cards however the first comment I made regarding the integration thus the lack of easy sensor cleaning is a huge point of dislike. Added to the dislike of the S2 being an integrated camera is the inability of incorporating a technical camera.

If ever I decide to go back to shooting with a 645 body my choice (at least at the moment) is the Phase DF as it fits my style of shooting which is primarily landscape. There’s also been some discussion regarding a “closed” system and I feel this is another sample of just that. To my way of thinking the S2 is an all or nothing system with no in-between.

I wrote this with no intention of saying the S2 isn’t or won’t be a great system for somebody – it just isn’t for me.

Don

 

[Guy Mancuso]

It certainly won't appeal to all and you points are very well part of that decision making process. Backup is a key element as well. I honestly have no dog in this fight either. I would like to see it succeed for Leica's sake no question we need more MF options in the field and for some folks it will be very appealing with it's ergonomics and it's feature sets. But I don't see a mad dash to dump current systems to get one. For new buyers moving up than they have several viable options to decide on and I think that is there market. We will have to see how it does out there in the real world of writing the check for it. That is really the only true measurement of success

 

[thomas]

Interesting how Michael's article changed the mood.
By now a lot of comments sounded naive and more like fanboy hysteria.
The first comment that was an aha moment for me was Yair's short note about the S2 somewhere above in this thread.
Now with Michael's article the S2 is "down to earth" … and for some reason now I am more willing to see its strength. Strange