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A Wealth Of Riches: Can't Have Them All : -(

fotografz

Well-known member
A mentor of mine once explained the meaning of being decisive when I was waffling back and forth about a layout I was working on (with a looming deadline BTW):

"Boy, I say Boy, get it through your thick scull ... when you make a decision, you eliminate all the other possibilities."

With today's state of MFD, the possibilities are indeed mind boggling.

And every possibility is well presented and very well represented on this great forum.

In my deliberations about my next MFD move I've heard from folks I simply trust at their word ... David, Chris, Steve ... and my current Michigan area Hasselblad dealer Jim Arnosky ... not to mention all the accumulated wisdom and experience of the member's here.

For me this may well be my last big MFD move because retirement looms ... not retirement from making photos, retirement from making the serious coin needed to make any move in MFD ...:ROTFL:

Sort of a last Hurrah! ... so it has to be a good one.

I must say, the new things from Phase One are absolutely delicious to think about. WOW has Mamiya/Phase made miraculous moves in the past few years.

And the Leica S2 certainly gives one pause by presenting a fork in the road for those looking for just the right system to fit their needs. I have no doubt that it'll all come together for Leica.

Then both Phase One and Hasselblad have some of the most aggressive promotions I've seen in many years. :thumbs:

So the waffling is over ... sort of.

In the end the S2 didn't fit my need for diverse studio use, and couldn't replace the DSLR system ... plus, the price was just to steep to add it as a third kit. Great camera, no doubt about it IMO!

The Phase One P65+ was the real contender with an improved camera, Sensor Plus and Schneider LS optics. However, no matter how I crunched the numbers it represented a staggering cost to swap out from Hasselblad ... even with the VERY tempting and aggressive trade-in promo. This isn't like going from Canon to Nikon or Sony.

Plus, we forget about all the auxiliary support stuff that surrounds a well planned MFD system. Like a $2,000. sliding back for my view camera, my H2F and 3 film backs, and CF adapter ... and so on ... and so on. Really complex and expensive.

So it will be the H4D/60 swap out promo ... which for me is the least expensive route by far. So much less expensive that I could add the CFV/39 for the 203FE and still have money left over.

It provides the 60 meg near FF sensor to distance my MFD capture from future 35mm DSLRs, preserves the investment in lenses and the endless stuff that goes with a diverse kit, allows use of the WLF that I often use in the studio .... and frankly requires little to no learning curve in terms of operation, software etc. etc. In addition, I've gotten feedback about the new focusing system for people who I trust quite a bit, and it promises to be a very valuable asset for the way I shoot out of the studio.

To those who have assisted me in this trek, I offer my most sincere thanks. :thumbs:

-Marc
 

Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
Congrats on your decision Marc and thanks for sharing your thought process!

Bottom line is yes, the cost of a swap becomes a HUGE factor once you're already invested in a given manufacturer's system (at least assuming they are still in business)! So the best word to the wise to glean from this is choose wisely at the onset... The next point is equally important though, there really isn't a bad first choice ;). Differences in intended use and overall system function aside, these are all stellar systems capable of producing the best images current technology can offer.

Congrats,
 

kipling

New member
Sound like a great choice marc. As far as IQ is concerned you're set for anything that comes your way. Hassy has some great features, great lenses, great accessories and Phocus seems to be about to catch up to some of the best software solutions out there - crossing my fingers on that one.

Anyway, I think it’s a smart move on your part.
Good luck with your business and have fun stacking the TB hard drives for those monster files! :salute:
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
I agree to all of everyones comments. First good luck Marc but you bring up the biggest point that rolls around in our heads and most important is it is very hard to switch sometimes so chose very wisely in the beginning. I'm really trying to upgrade before the year is out and scouring the couches looking for lose change to do it. Even if I want the S2 it won't happen this year obviously and I need the tax break. Accepting all lose change from the water fountains. ROTFLMAO
 

PSon

Active member
Congratulation Marc on the H4D-60. This also has been a great struggles for me as well and I am too happy to tell you at least one of my friend also now going with the H4D-60 and I myself are close to follow behind.
Best Regards,
Son
 

cunim

Well-known member
I just went through the selection process. Need a 60 back, primarily, and was fairly sold on Phase because of the track record of the 65+.

Then I had a demo of C1 running an AF / P65+. To be fair, the firmware and C1 version had been installed minutes before. At any rate, shooting tethered was a painful experience and that is critical to me. I couldn't even focus from the keyboard. Other things - found the manual focus on the lens loose, viewfinder was difficult to focus with, viewfinder and back data display poor, and the menu system not to my taste. Touchy-feely issues.

So I went to the Hasselblad dealer and said "show me". Well, he couldn't. Best he could do because of Phocus liveview limitations was an H3/39. Never mind, it worked beautifully on that platform. The software was totally integrated with the camera. I could adjust everything, do stepped focus series - all without touching the body. Price of the 4D with the HCD 35-90 was about 10% higher than the P1DF/80. The viewfinder was glorious, the display was just OK but the 4D/60 should be better (please God), I preferred the menu system.......

Took an H3/50 home for a couple of days. That 35-90 is wonderful, but still no cigar until I was sure that liveview is guaranteed with the 4D/60. Contacting Hasselblad central revealed they are in the final of three stages of testing and that release is imminent (weeks). Do I believe them? Well, I guess maybe kinda. Just like I believe they will have my 4D in January. At least they appear to be 100% commited to it. In contrast, I was told (by the P1 rep) that liveview is not a top priority for C1.

Just one person's experience. If the 4Ds come in with bits falling off of them, boy will I feel silly.
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Not to spoil the party but has anyone seen any images from the new 60 yet?
No, and they haven't seen one penny from me yet either :)

Now to get the HTS 1.5 ... I want that puppy for selective focus full length portraits with the 100/2.2 ... and for some food work.

That I can slap on the H3D-II/39 immediately. :thumbup:

-Marc
 

fotografz

Well-known member
I just went through the selection process. Need a 60 back, primarily, and was fairly sold on Phase because of the track record of the 65+.

Then I had a demo of C1 running an AF / P65+. To be fair, the firmware and C1 version had been installed minutes before. At any rate, shooting tethered was a painful experience and that is critical to me. I couldn't even focus from the keyboard. Other things - found the manual focus on the lens loose, viewfinder was difficult to focus with, viewfinder and back data display poor, and the menu system not to my taste. Touchy-feely issues.

So I went to the Hasselblad dealer and said "show me". Well, he couldn't. Best he could do because of Phocus liveview limitations was an H3/39. Never mind, it worked beautifully on that platform. The software was totally integrated with the camera. I could adjust everything, do stepped focus series - all without touching the body. Price of the 4D with the HCD 35-90 was about 10% higher than the P1DF/80. The viewfinder was glorious, the display was just OK but the 4D/60 should be better (please God), I preferred the menu system.......

Took an H3/50 home for a couple of days. That 35-90 is wonderful, but still no cigar until I was sure that liveview is guaranteed with the 4D/60. Contacting Hasselblad central revealed they are in the final of three stages of testing and that release is imminent (weeks). Do I believe them? Well, I guess maybe kinda. Just like I believe they will have my 4D in January. At least they appear to be 100% commited to it. In contrast, I was told (by the P1 rep) that liveview is not a top priority for C1.

Just one person's experience. If the 4Ds come in with bits falling off of them, boy will I feel silly.
FYI, Hassey has doubled the resolution of the LCD rear display of the H4D ... that should help.

I agree that reliable live view is critical for any of these systems ... that always seems to be slow on the uptake with newer MFD cameras.

Funny you mentioned doing everything from the computer ... it's getting really bad ... my behind is spreading out like Dumbo's ... and my forearm looks like Popeye's ... from never getting up anymore ...:ROTFL:



-Marc
 

dougpeterson

Workshop Member
Took an H3/50 home for a couple of days. That 35-90 is wonderful, but still no cigar until I was sure that liveview is guaranteed with the 4D/60. Contacting Hasselblad central revealed they are in the final of three stages of testing and that release is imminent (weeks). Do I believe them? Well, I guess maybe kinda. Just like I believe they will have my 4D in January. At least they appear to be 100% commited to it. In contrast, I was told (by the P1 rep) that liveview is not a top priority for C1.
All currently shipping P40+/P65+ have Live View enabled (read: it works today). The firmware for Live View with the P65+/P40+ is available on phaseone.com for anyone who purchased their back while this firmware was still in development.

I've tested P65+ Live View, and it is significantly better than the Live View of the P45+/P30+/P25+/P21+/P20+. (still not comparable with Canon/Nikon, but the best Phase Live View I've ever seen).

Capture One 5.0.1 has Live View for both Windows and Mac. Today. For free.

So this statement confuses me.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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carstenw

Active member
cunim, I don't want to detract from your choice, but I am sure that Phase could have demonstrated a perfectly functioning tethered P45+. I think that when the H4D-60 is ready, you should re-check the P65+ at the same time, to be completely unbiased.

[Edit: and, erm, what Doug said.]
 

dougpeterson

Workshop Member
cunim, I don't want to detract from your choice, but I am sure that Phase could have demonstrated a perfectly functioning tethered P45+. I think that when the H4D-60 is ready, you should re-check the P65+ at the same time, to be completely unbiased.

[Edit: and, erm, what Doug said.]
I would also (from my openly biased position) points out that tethered capture in the professional ("someone gets fired if something screws up") rental/digital-tech markets of Miami/NYC/LC are dominated by Phase One backs and Capture One software. Google "digital tech [city name]", call a handful, and ask them "if I hire you and want to shoot medium format what would YOU prefer we shoot?" and see what they say.

I'd say you got a bad demo on a good product.
 

fotografz

Well-known member
I would also (from my openly biased position) points out that tethered capture in the professional ("someone gets fired if something screws up") rental/digital-tech markets of Miami/NYC/LC are dominated by Phase One backs and Capture One software. Google "digital tech [city name]", call a handful, and ask them "if I hire you and want to shoot medium format what would YOU prefer we shoot?" and see what they say.

I'd say you got a bad demo on a good product.
Well Doug, I've had Phase One systems go down on shoots in NYC, Chicago and LA ... and I don't recall anyone getting fired. :)

These are computers folks, they all have hiccups from time to time, and everyone knows it. The measure of the tech assist is how fast they can get the photographer back shooting.

IMO, the tech assist folks don't get paid enough for the stress they have to deal with.

-Marc
 

cunim

Well-known member
I hope I did not appear critical of P1 products in general. I am a newcomer to MFD and was trying to give that perspective on the selection process. I would have benefited from knowing what to expect before the demos.

All I can report is what I saw with one specific camera, back, firmware, and C1 configuration. No implications re other configratons. I did point out that the firmware and C1 were both brand new versions so this was probably difficult for the rep.

I would be interested in knowing whether the issues I saw are real or just artefacts of the demo process.

- We had to hold down the shutter button in bulb mode to get LV. Really hard to see the computer screen when you do that. We could have locked the shutter with a cable but didn't have one. Can that really be the way it is supposed to work?
- To take the shot, we had to then switch out of bulb on the back and reset to manual, aperture priority etc. That is very strange so it must have been a misunderstanding.
- The camera hung a few times and had to be reset.
- We could not focus the lens from the computer, much less move focus in regular intervals. As I do stepped focus series for later convolution, this is important to me.
- I tried to focus through the finder but was unable to achieve a good result. Of course, the 60 back is more critical than the H3/50 I did focus with later - so that may be an unfair test.
- For my eyes, the finder kept cutting part of the data display at bottom. I had to move my gaze around to restore it.

Lots of other little things. Perhaps I just saw C1/liveview with the P65+ back too early. I didn't see the H3D/50 with liveview at all but I did find impelmentation on the 39 back to be well engineered. Here I am relying on Hasselblad to make Phocus 2.0 do everything with the 60 back that 1.2.1 does with the 39. What, me worry?
 

fotografz

Well-known member
cunim, I don't want to detract from your choice, but I am sure that Phase could have demonstrated a perfectly functioning tethered P45+. I think that when the H4D-60 is ready, you should re-check the P65+ at the same time, to be completely unbiased.

[Edit: and, erm, what Doug said.]
I totally agree with that.

I think Doug has cleared up that issue.
 

PeterA

Well-known member
Marc - stop pussy footing around :lecture:and get yourself an Alpa 12SWA or WA - then add a 28 Rodenstock or a 35Schneider...make a few shots - it will put/relagate the SLR in 35mm and MF stuff into context...:bugeyes:

Pete
 

jotloob

Subscriber Member
get yourself an Alpa 12SWA or WA - then add a 28 Rodenstock or a 35Schneider...make a few shots - it will put/relagate the SLR in 35mm and MF stuff into context...:bugeyes:
Pete
Pete
That is exactly my thinking as well .
After I could hold the ALPA 12SWA with that
RODENSTOCK DIGARON-S 4,5/28mm in my hands , I put that beauty on the top of my wishlist . The images I saw were just tremendous .
I will hire that camera for a day or two after x-mas .
It is not all that expensive . 130 € per day for the 12SWA , V-system adapter (unadjusted) , DIGARON-S 28mm lens plus an APO GRANDAGON 4,5/45mm and a 6x9 filmback .

I believe , that 12SWA would be a phantastic wide angle supplement to my V-SYSTEM gear .

Jürgen
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Marc - stop pussy footing around :lecture:and get yourself an Alpa 12SWA or WA - then add a 28 Rodenstock or a 35Schneider...make a few shots - it will put/relagate the SLR in 35mm and MF stuff into context...:bugeyes:

Pete
:ROTFL:

Peter,

As much as I love the precision and look of the ALPA, and need not be sold on the IQ of the digital view lenses (remember, I use a Rollei Xact-2) ... I'm just not a field camera kind of shooter.

The HTS 1.5 most likely pales in comparison to a tech camera and HR view lenses, but for me ultimate IQ gear is the gear I will actually use ;)

I want to do some selective focus people work like that I've seen done with the Canon and Nikon TS lenses ... except at 60 meg., full 645.

I have sent my order for the HTS 1.5 to use while sequestered in my studio for the long winter months ahead ... no weddings until spring, so I can concentrate on something else.

I'm excited about the possibilities. Possibilities about something creative rather than MFD gear possibilities ... which I'm pretty tired of thinking about.

-Marc
 

PeterA

Well-known member
I can understand exactly what you are saying Marc.

Well i for one will be very interested in your views on the HTS - I was looking forward t it very much - but it seems to be a device for tethered shooting - good for a studio - not so good for the 'field' - it is why I am interested in the arTEc..

let me know what you think when you have played with it for a while - might save me quite a few bucks..and yes the portrait and still life potential of this thing is really interesting..

Pete
 
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