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The Changing MF Landscape: What's a Mother to do?

Jim Stone

Workshop Member
Greetings Marc and Jack,

Long time no chat. But you guys can STOP this anytime now !!!! You're killing me !! :ROTFL: :ROTFL: If you keep it up, even Guy will beat me to it!! :eek: Still waiting to see how the new HY6 sytems shake out before jumping in. Hoping Phase will be able to attach to one of them, but currently that seems unlikely. Everyone's points on all these threads are right on the mark and VERY civil I might add as compared to a couple other forums that are filled with such vitriolic crap.

Image quality IS unsurpassed, but the $$$$ are BIG therefore most don't want to make a mistake as many have already suggested. Son's Hassy 205TCC sale is pretty interesting also. Looks like Peter could have his eyes on it. :D I had that system and guess I should have kept it....but, being a gearhead, a change HAD to be made !! :thumbs:

Keep the info coming,

Cheers,

Jim
 

fotografz

Well-known member
That was perhaps the most telling single paragraph written yet... And then of course, my own personal favorite motto, at least when I really want something:

But it can sting a bit, at least initially...

:)
Sting? Come on you guys (including Guy: -), I've followed your acquisitions of rarified gear for awhile now... swapping systems as often as a baby needs fresh diapers ... LOL.

I know, it's the initial big nut that's so ... well ... horrifying. But a M8 and passel of good glass isn't exactly chicken feed. $5,500 here, and $4,000 there ... pretty soon you're right up there.
 

PeterA

Well-known member
Very interesting thoughts Marc. Just a couple of reinforcing points I'd make as one of those non-pro weirdos who buy this stuff.

1. IQ is from MFDB: - in my opinion the step up difference between 35.. and MF in digital is FAR greater than same in film... ( do you NEED this?)

2. You get a lot of value in MFDB IF you employ a careful workflow - in practise that means tripod/monopod in the filed MATED to very careful post processing according to subject matter - if you haev sloppy workflow or lazy 35mm approach - then your results will likely be far worse than a JPEG out of any 35mm 10 megapixel camera. ( are you prepared to be careful and disciplined ?)

3. 35mm land delivers portablity and quality eg M* plus a few lenses or similar in SLR. MFDB + cameras and lenses are bigger dont kid yourself you can take this stuff anywhere anytime as a happy holiday snapper ( will you USE this gear as much as your CaNikon/M8 etc ? - REALLY?)

4. I will say that the your relationship with the dealer who supports your purchase ins MORE important than teh brand.

Comment on 'cost' - I don't understand people talking 'cost' and 'value' as IF these were absolutes. Don't even think about cost - if you cant easily afford something - DONT DO IT. The 'value' of MFDB goes DOWN from a LARGER entry point cost wise - take Marc's advice and consider refurbished gear - which often is as good as the new model from a practical point of view.

Pete
 

TRSmith

Subscriber Member
This all makes a strange kind of sense. Which is both great and very scary. Although honestly, I wouldn't consider buying a MF outfit unless I could earn with it.

Which doesn't make me any less curious about it. I would very much like to see some examples of work done with MF. Not the stuff you see on the mfg.'s web sites, but real work being done by pros in actual work situations.

Can anyone point to a site(s) with examples/portfolios of MF commercial work? Or, maybe we need a thread here on this forum for pictures a la the "fun with an M8" thread?

Thanks,
Tim
 

fotografz

Well-known member
1. Yes I need this, because once you have it, it's hard to go back (depending on the the subject matter : -) Even on the street, most people think the H is a video camera.

2. Depends on technique. If I shoot candid wedding work handheld, I have to mindful of proper shutter speeds for each format and focal length ... however, the variable mirror timing on my MF camera has opened that up a bit more. Obviously, no mirror works even better ... as with the M8.

3. Depends on the 35mm. My 1DsMKIII is as big and almost as heavy. The M is the best Holiday snapper ... which is what I usually take ... but I've been known to take a 203FE and 3 lenses on holiday, so the more demure H is no problem ... LOL. Depends on what you're after. Most the time a Digilux 3 in pocket is good for that happy snapper stuff. With a HD I sometimes get stuff that I can sell, and pay for the holiday : -)

4. Absolutely.

All in all, you're right Peter, "Horses for courses"
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Sting? Come on you guys (including Guy: -), I've followed your acquisitions of rarified gear for awhile now... swapping systems as often as a baby needs fresh diapers ... LOL.

I know, it's the initial big nut that's so ... well ... horrifying. But a M8 and passel of good glass isn't exactly chicken feed. $5,500 here, and $4,000 there ... pretty soon you're right up there.
Just shot me and put me out of this misery. LOL
 

Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
Guy, cheer up... I may be upgrading my ZD back sooner than anticipated and so the ZD already has your name on it. I am such a good friend...

:D
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
3 systems to support is just going to kill me. I know myself much too much . i will always keep trying to climb the ladder to the next level on all three. No matter how I slice it the M8 system is going to take a major hit again. This is one system I really got attached too. The Nikon setup needs a D3 but i need to see a major improvement over the D300 in image. i don't care about FF and 6400 ISO's and 9fps. Money is a object too. My wife would just throw gasoline on me and light my butt up, no question about it.:cussing::wtf::cussing::wtf::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused:
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Damn I need to sell a M8,12 and 21mm just to swing it all. Scary thing is I have a Hassy 40mm and 120 hassy macro at my disposal. There goes the D3, Guess i would have to get a second D300. Back to a freaking roller bag. I'm applying for a used car salesman job when I get home. :bugeyes::bugeyes::bugeyes:
 

David K

Workshop Member
Comment on 'cost' - I don't understand people talking 'cost' and 'value' as IF these were absolutes. Don't even think about cost - if you cant easily afford something - DONT DO IT.
Pete
That advice is about as likely to succeed with this group as Nancy Regan's "Just Say NO" anti-drug campaign :) I think it's a safe bet that a good percentage of this forum's members are IQ driven. Why else put up with the limitations and foibles of the DMR and M8 unless it was to use the best glass possible and get some really special images. If you're that kind of person (I know I am) then moving to MF has a very strong attraction. As Peter said (and as James Russell has posted elsewhere many times) it doesn't have to be prohibitively expensive. It's only the latest and greatest gear that's up there in the stratosphere. A 22 MP back from Mamiya or Phase, a body and a couple of lenses really doesn't have to be that much more than a Canon 1Ds MkIII and some L glass. It's likely not much more (maybe even less) than some of us have invested in a Leica DMR or M8.
 

robmac

Well-known member
TRSmith - luminous landscape's medium format forum has a running thread where users post, when able, samples of their latest work.

Some of them are getting into a spitting contest of late over if they should restrict it only to MF, but it's primarily commercial stuff with a wide variety of gear and bloody amazing. IIRC it was well over 20 pages and counting in length.
 
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jlm

Workshop Member
could someone post a quick summary of the various MF back options with some general comments, like versatility, limitations, cost, available used, what bodies it will fit, etc.?
 

TRSmith

Subscriber Member
...No matter how I slice it the M8 system is going to take a major hit again.

I'm already salivating at the thought of Guy's fire sale on Leica M lenses. :thumbup:


thsinar and robmac: Thank you for those links! The degree of excellence shown there is an inspiration. It's easy to get lost in my own amateur wanderings and forget the talent and vision that many working pros exhibit on every job.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Well that is a great question. Tell me what you need. The whole issue here for me is what my business dictates and what I want is the constant head butting. The idea for me is bring the M8 down to workshops , travel and personal . Than I need a D3 for the D300 to have a complete Nikon system to handle all this commercial work they need to back each other up. The MF fits in what I want but not being dictated by clients per say. Honestly it's a really tough call and like I said maybe better off selling used cars. The other problem is what is Photokinia bringing in MF. The ZD sounds nice and i can get Jack's for very little cost . My issue is I want the Aptus 75s too. See that is my problem. I want the best there is or don't bother. Well need to go work and make money . I feel my pants on fire no matter what I do.
 

PeterA

Well-known member
Thanks for the link robmac - I read the whole 28 pages

People interested in MFDB should read this link and compare pics ( admittedly only internet) but to me what comes out is that LIGHTING is the most important part of the equation for most shots ( not to go into the quality of the model or make-up etc)

even with studio lighting, you still see a LOT of post processing
you see a lot of HDR and composite work

so I guess not to disagree with Guy - but IMHO there is no such thing as the best choice for everyone..Some of the best work was done with 22 megapixel backs and Mamiya lenses ..
 

LJL

New member
This has turned into a very interesting and thought provoking discussion. Nice to see so many ideas, suggestions and perspectives shared. Really appreciate some of the comments from Marc, links and thoughts from Rob and Thierry, and others. I keep coming back to my original thoughts about needs and use, versus wants. The IQ and use options from MF are clearly several cuts above anything else most of us work with. It also has its own "addiction" that does pull one in. This is great stuff.

Putting the entry costs aside (yeah, right....like they do not matter too much), there is a very different kind of shooting transformation that folks would also go through on the MF side of the world. Just thinking back about how many snaps folks take and share now with the M8 or other cameras, and reading through some of the discussions about image management, processing, etc., there are very different approaches and learning curves folks should consider. I think Peter was commenting about how much post processing and lighting that goes into a lot of the shots for MF, and I tend to agree. Not saying that one cannot get great stuff right out of the camera to start, as that is always desired to start, but the effort levels between "grip and grin" shooting, tourist snaps, street shooting, etc., and finished images for commercial use from MF systems are not in the same category. I love seeing some of the final images, and that does suck me in more and more toward MF. I also am not afraid to spend the time planning and prepping a shoot, and then processing later. The difference comes into play with the client base one serves, or if not a pro shooter, the desired purpose of one's shooting. Folks doing commercial, fashion, product, high-end portrait, fine art, etc., type shooting seem the natural fit for MF. Folks doing more event, PR, casual portrait, most weddings, and tourist type shooting seem to fit nicely with things like the M8 and most DSLRs. Folks engaged mostly in sports/action, or a wider variety of shooting seem to have a best fit with DSLRs. Not saying one could not cross over into any other area using any format or system, as we know that is possible and is done all the time. My point is more to think about what one really wants their photography to be or accomplish for them.

In my thinking, digital MF is head and shoulders above everything else for IQ, but it also is much more limited for some things. Marc's points about just using it as one would any other system are excellent, and I embrace the concept. There still are situations where MF is still not going to deliver as easily/quickly/cheaply/effectively as some other tools. If those kinds of shooting are a big part of one's work/choice/preferences, then MF may not be the first nor best choice. Having said that, I find myself preferring to think more about using MF and changing what and how I shoot instead. (I shoot a lot of polo that requires 400mm+ fast lenses, and 8+fps speeds to capture those moments. Nothing in the MF world that I have seen will get that kind of coverage for me.....nor could I realistically manage thousands of MF frames per shooting, even if the camera could deliver it.) That being said, it gets me into thinking more about changing the "what I shoot" part, and that is a hugely scary thing at times. That is why this entire discussion around gear and its capabilities is so useful. It is getting me to think differently about image capture and use. It is getting me to think more about the total image quality, more than the unique capture that DSLRs permit for me now. Starting to be one of those "been there, done that" moments before moving on to that next challenge and probably an entirely new set of clients. Yikes!

Bottom line....when I figure out the best way to overcome the MF entry hurdles again, but now on the digital side, I will, and probably never look back, except keeping the M8 and a few select lenses for personal shooting. I will not worry about insanely high ISO needs for high shutter speeds to stop 40mph horses running past me in after-sunset light conditions, and not using any flash.

O.K., who was it that was asking for a "selection matrix" of sorts to really get this stuff figured out? I applaud that creation and tool. Objectivity is important, but wrapped with a bit of passion is good also ;-)

LJ
 
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