The Changing MF Landscape: What's a Mother to do?

[PSon]

Experience is the best teacher and limiting factor is the barrier to one's growth. How strong is your passion and what will it takes to deliver? Life is full of sacrifices and in doing so it gives us the chance to succeed, whichever it may means to us. Despite we are artists in our own ways and some may misunderstood us for being gear head, we all stand for progress and it is part of us since we first begun and it is why we are here.

-Son

 

[gogopix]

Son, excellent points
ANy commitment to MFDB should be made with some care. I didn't do it for many years, until the kodak back came out. I had the Contx for film so it was a natural to stick there. I have acquired lenses et al over a 6 yr period.

for digital, since I started with a 'discounted' 10,500 for the kodak, each step has been 12-15k. NOT a $30K+ slug at once.

Look for a good platform and a back that will be part of an upgrade program for a while. For most 22MP is MORE than enough, and you WILL be diappointed by the low light capability, so use where there is planty of light, or you can make light.

As far as a system is concerned, I picked the C645 and would buy it today if I were starting out (if I won the lottery, I would buy the Hasselblad!).

I started with Kpodak/Phase and would do it again. But that is a lot less clear. I could slip to Sinar or Leaf if an important feature came out (e.g. usable live preview!)

Jack can likely confirm that MF is a learning curve, but a rewarding one. However, ANY MFDB will be quite a step up, if fed enough LIGHT!

regards
Victor

 

[Jack]

Jack can likely confirm that MF is a learning curve, but a rewarding one.

Jack shot three years ago with the Kodak DCS back on a complete C645 outfit (including the not so impressive Contax zoom), then 2 years ago with the Betterlight scanning back on my 4x5. I personally did not find the learning curve that steep, but then I had been shooting LF adn MF film for some years and working on large digital files at the same time; drum-scanned 4x5 and MF film...

The biggest learning curve is learning to accept the shallower DOF for any given aperture --- what you shot at f8 on 35mm needs f16 or 22 on MF and f32 or 45 plus tilts on 4x5, let alone when you shoot 8x10! There is a reason Ansel and friends named their group "f64"

Cheers,

 

[fotografz]

Experience is the best teacher and limiting factor is the barrier to one's growth. How strong is your passion and what will it takes to deliver? Life is full of sacrifices and in doing so it gives us the chance to succeed, whichever it may means to us. Despite we are artists in our own ways and some may misunderstood us for being gear head, we all stand for progress and it is part of us since we first begun and it is why we are here.

-Son

This "Gear Head" title is such nonsense. In my 35+ year experience as a career Art Director I've worked with some of the best photographers in the world. They were all gear heads. One very successful NYC shooter I've used for editorial type work is the one who infected me with "gear disease." He had 3 copies of the M Noctilux and swore each had it's own specific set of characteristics ... LOL.

 

[jonoslack]

Hi Everyone
Marc - thank you for starting this thread (not sure that I really mean that).
All the D300 / D3 talk I find easy to resist - been there, and I don't wish to reinhabit that minefield. I get good quality images from my M8 system, and I have a nice 4/3 system for those dSLR moments. I shoot mostly nature and landscape, together with a little pr work and a wedding or two when I can't possibly avoid it. I'm not professional, although there have been years when I've made a profit from my photography!
Medium format has always been something which has tempted / frightened / confused in that order, so I've kept clear.
Still, I need a new challenge, and it seems that it's possible to pick up a new Mamiya AFDII with a ZD back and an 80mm lens in the UK for a very reasonable price (like only a little more than a 1DS MkIII body).
Is this a sensible 'first step' ? - the Mamiya lenses look reasonably priced, and a wide angle plus a longer macro would seem like something to get goin on.
Any help would be gratefully received

 

[Jack]

Hi Everyone
Marc - thank you for starting this thread (not sure that I really mean that).
All the D300 / D3 talk I find easy to resist - been there, and I don't wish to reinhabit that minefield. I get good quality images from my M8 system, and I have a nice 4/3 system for those dSLR moments. I shoot mostly nature and landscape, together with a little pr work and a wedding or two when I can't possibly avoid it. I'm not professional, although there have been years when I've made a profit from my photography!
Medium format has always been something which has tempted / frightened / confused in that order, so I've kept clear.
Still, I need a new challenge, and it seems that it's possible to pick up a new Mamiya AFDII with a ZD back and an 80mm lens in the UK for a very reasonable price (like only a little more than a 1DS MkIII body).
Is this a sensible 'first step' ? - the Mamiya lenses look reasonably priced, and a wide angle plus a longer macro would seem like something to get goin on.
Any help would be gratefully received

It's what I just did. In my limited experience, I can tell you three things:

1) The ZD back on a Mamiya AFD with the stock 80mm lens produces WAY better files than the 1Ds mkIII with ANY lens on it.

2) The AFD/ZD with 80 weighs about the same as the 1DsIII with a 50/1.4.

3) You can mount up just about any older MF Mamiya 645 lens and use it in stop down mode with AF confirmation (these are bargain cheap to acquire, see KEH). You can mount up Hassy F, FE or CF lenses via a Hassy to Mamiya lens adapter and use per above and these are stellar (albeit more expensive) optics...

Cheers,

 

[PSon]

This "Gear Head" title is such nonsense. In my 35+ year experience as a career Art Director I've worked with some of the best photographers in the world. They were all gear heads. One very successful NYC shooter I've used for editorial type work is the one who infected me with "gear disease." He had 3 copies of the M Noctilux and swore each had it's own specific set of characteristics ... LOL.

Marc, you are among the few photographers with all kind of tools to do your work. Your experiences and mentorship set you apart and without being "gear head" I feel it will not be possible for your success.

Best Regards,
-Son

 

[PSon]

It's what I just did. In my limited experience, I can tell you three things:

1) The ZD back on a Mamiya AFD with the stock 80mm lens produces WAY better files than the 1Ds mkIII with ANY lens on it.

2) The AFD/ZD with 80 weighs about the same as the 1DsIII with a 50/1.4.

3) You can mount up just about any older MF Mamiya 645 lens and use it in stop down mode with AF confirmation (these are bargain cheap to acquire, see KEH). You can mount up Hassy F, FE or CF lenses via a Hassy to Mamiya lens adapter and use per above and these are stellar (albeit more expensive) optics...

Cheers,

Jack, I cannot agree more.

If you want it to be even lighter go with the Contax 645 body, waist level finder and the Distagon T* 3.5/55 lens. The adapters for the Hasselblad to Contax 645 system is well developed and ready to use without the hassel.

Son

 

[Woody Campbell]

Watch out for this forum

I stopped by this forum the day before yesterday to check for M8 and GRD news - instead I read this thread and got into trouble. Many of the posters articluated truths that I have known for some time, but have been ducking. So . . I found a H3D 39 on Ebay from Kurland Photo for well under $20k, and I jumped at it. I picked it up yesterday (together with a HCD f4.0 28 mm and some batteries).

I'll save detailed reactions for a later posts. For now: the files are simply amazing. Web-friendly jpegs and crops can't come close to expressing it. The H3D demands accurate exposure and good technique. The workflow is quirky but beats loading 4x5 film holders.

The 28mm on a 36x49 sensor is roughly comparable to the Hasselblad Superwide C (38mm on 6x6) - an all time favorite of mine from film days. Hasselblad's digital correction technology actually delivers a distortion and vignetting free image (Hasselblad says it also corrects for CA but I couldn't find any in the uncorrected images). This really demonstrates the advantages of glass that is designed from scratch for digital (according to Hasselblad the 28 is not backward compatible with film) and integrating lens and software design.

I'd appreciate hearing about any experieince with Hasselblad HCD lenses. The 35, 50 and 100 might be of interest to me. Reviews of this gear are scarce, probably because the market is small and it's expensive. Is there an an online community that focuses on this stuff? I looked at the 120 macro at Kurland - it might produce lovely images but for a guy coming from the Leica world it's just too big.

 

[Jack]

Re: Watch out for this forum

Is there an an online community that focuses on this stuff?

You're in it

And congrats on a wonderful system!

 

[jonoslack]

It's what I just did. In my limited experience, I can tell you three things:

1) The ZD back on a Mamiya AFD with the stock 80mm lens produces WAY better files than the 1Ds mkIII with ANY lens on it.

2) The AFD/ZD with 80 weighs about the same as the 1DsIII with a 50/1.4.

3) You can mount up just about any older MF Mamiya 645 lens and use it in stop down mode with AF confirmation (these are bargain cheap to acquire, see KEH). You can mount up Hassy F, FE or CF lenses via a Hassy to Mamiya lens adapter and use per above and these are stellar (albeit more expensive) optics...

Cheers,

Thank you Jack
I think it's looking like penny counting times (dammit).
I might even have to sell something (anyone got a grandmother I can borrow!).

Thank you also Son - the Contax sounds attractive (I used to use their 35mm slr stuff), but the thing about the Mamiya is the all in one deal - it's really hard to beat.

Thinking cap on.:bugeyes::bugeyes::bugeyes:

 

[robmac]

Another couple of forums that are good for MF discourse are: www.hasselbladinfo.com (despite name, not a company site) and Luminous Landscape.

 

[fotografz]

Re: Watch out for this forum

Yes Woody, there is forum called "Flexframe" dedicated/restricted to Hasselblad Digital.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Flexframe/

 

[Woody Campbell]

Jack: Point taken on this forum. f

otografz and robmac: Thanks for the links - they look very promising.

Woody

 

[kit laughlin]

Hello all,

Great thread, and just wanted to add another perspective. Guy wrote:

If I had my way it would be M8 and MF only like Jack is able to do. I just can't but I need to get my stuff down to minimum somehow to get to MF in my process.

This is what I have found too, and why I got into the Nikon D3/D300 system end last year. I am a writer and workshop presenter, here and overseas, as some may know. But I have been a commercial photographer too, since the late 70s. I have some big clients (John Deere) and many smaller ones who are prepared to wait to fit their work around my schedule.

The Nikon D3 plus the three new zooms, the 24/2.5 TS, and the Zeiss lenses, do everything that these clients need. Even the big enlargements required for booths and trade shows can be done on this format. And even though MF has become more 'handleable', the idea of taking one of those systems into the forest, balancing on slippery just-barked logs four feet or so from the ground amid logging debris, in the dark so you can see the machines operating at night and make a dawn shot (a recent shoot), fill me with horror. This may just be me.

On another shoot I needed to carry all the gear I needed, for three days, again in the forests (fire restrictions made vehicle access a no-no), with a return to the hotel at night. I know size and weight of MF has come down, but on this shoot I was on the long end of the 70-200 VR plus the 1,4 extender... I don't think that would have been possible with any MF system I know.

Anyhow, the point is that the old 'horses for courses' argument holds. I believe that if you are a commercial shooter these days, depending on your market, you will need two systems. Mine is lower end: I make do with the D3/D300 kit as mentioned above, and am waiting for the 410 + pancake and the DP-1, to see what mini-system will become my 'shoot for pleasure' tool.

Now a comment on MF in general, in the digital age. One of my personal dilemmas, and one that I have wrestled with for years, and which I have shared with some of you on Fred's site in the DMR Bible days, is the search for IQ. The reason I sold all my gear at one point (Woody will remember this) stemmed from my on-going work with a Zen monk: he asked me, "how much quality is enough"? For me personally, I realised that this search was part of the ego's search for perfection—an abstract never able to be realised—and not really related to what my customers needed, or even wanted. The reality for me is that my work is destined for brochures to sell products, images to illustrate concepts in books, the web, DVD covers, and the like. No fine art there, even though I view part of myself as a mix of artisan and technologist.

Once I let go of that search, to the extent of selling all my gear, I was able to re-approach the question. Fortunately for me, the D3 and the 14–24/2.8's MTF charts were announced/published at that same time. Now, 10,000 commercial images later, for the first time I am actually *satisfied* with the gear I am using: it is just a tool to get a certain result. I honestly feel a deep gratitude to Nikon for making this system. For me personally, it really is that good.

One further digression: 'street shooting'. This can be done with a Hasselblad, I guess, but a DP-1 or something small makes better sense to me. And if we look at the kind of images that are being made and shown on the small sensor thread, it seems to me that an aesthetic is already emerging, where the limitations of the sensor become part of the look. Some great work here.

So, conclusions? For me personally, I have decided that I don't need MF, and I am committed instead to getting the most out of the Nikon D3 system. For fun, I will use whichever of the small sensor cameras I like the most. On a job interstate last week (Pilates studio, controlled environment, strobe and natural light mix), I found myself wishing for the DOF of an MF system, as it happened. On looking at the ~1,000 images this week, all shot wide open at ƒ2.8 on the 24–70, they are completely acceptable, and with lovely soft backgrounds. They would have looked better had they been shot on MF, but they are lovely just as they are.

But...

I am just going to re-quote Jack's points, because I think they are spot on for anyone wanting to step up, but without killing the bank balance:

1) The ZD back on a Mamiya AFD with the stock 80mm lens produces WAY better files than the 1Ds mkIII with ANY lens on it.

2) The AFD/ZD with 80 weighs about the same as the 1DsIII with a 50/1.4.

3) You can mount up just about any older MF Mamiya 645 lens and use it in stop down mode with AF confirmation (these are bargain cheap to acquire, see KEH). You can mount up Hassy F, FE or CF lenses via a Hassy to Mamiya lens adapter and use per above and these are stellar (albeit more expensive) optics...

I wonder if Jack could start a thread on just this system, including images of it?

Please don't flame me folks; I posted these ideas just to give us all something else to think about! Cheers to all, kl

 

[fotografz]

Art has little or nothing to do with making better sense ... at least in the convention sense of the word.

Could it be that to many rules and convenient little sayings ... leads to the tyranny of reason?

That a certain format shouldn't be used, or is less convenient to use for some task, could actually be the very reason to use it.

Perhaps "Needs", or "all that I need", is a good idea until it becomes the rule ... and does it then become limiting and stifling?

If you decide to limit your trek to that of artisan or technologist, why think the trek of others has any bearing on yours?

If something looks lovely as is, but would be more lovely with something else, where is the desire to make more beauty rather than less?

Just curious.

 

[Jack]

Jack: Point taken on this forum. f

otografz and robmac: Thanks for the links - they look very promising.

Woody

I should have clarified further Woody, lest I sound snobbish LL has a very good MF section too as do a few other sites as mentioned. But the bottom line is that the Pros we have here like Marc Williams (fotografz), David Kipper, Chuck Jones and a few others, have forgotten more about photography than most folks on the other forums ever knew, including site owners... These guys were all into digital before anybody else wanted to be in digital, and in a way were the real pioneers for the rest of us. The fact they are willing to share their time with us here is a huge gift to us.

Cheers,

 

[kit laughlin]

Marc, I simply wanted to share my thoughts on the the process of making these kinds of decisions. A comment or two:

Re. art: that is the heart's matter, not the intellect's. And tyranny of reason is exactly what prompted the process I was describing, and my work with my teacher.

I don't feel as though I have limited myself, in any absolute sense, by making these choices, and a choice made at this time does not limit future choices. I expect to change.

Finally, given the finitude of bank balances, one does have to make a practical choice between beauty and one's capacity to actualise this, and isn't that is where this thread began?

For me personally, I found that questioning my deepest motives for the search for more IQ was very helpful. OTOH, I feel that all the points you have raised are perfectly reasonable, too—the basis for an interesting and meaningful discussion. Thank you, kl

 

[gogopix]

Thank you Jack
I think it's looking like penny counting times (dammit).
I might even have to sell something (anyone got a grandmother I can borrow!).

Thank you also Son - the Contax sounds attractive (I used to use their 35mm slr stuff), but the thing about the Mamiya is the all in one deal - it's really hard to beat.

Thinking cap on.:bugeyes::bugeyes::bugeyes:

there are a lot of us quite pleased with the contax 645 system, for mamny years. There is good float of products, parts for over 10 years, and many lenses to be used (I use Hassey, Contax and even some visoflex lenses! ALL focus confirm and AE, if you set it correctly
Also, all back makers support the mount as well as alpa, Cambio etc.

Good stuff lasts.

victor

 

[PeterA]

For me there is great resonance in what Kit alluded to regarding what is 'needed' but also and perhaps more importantly - what is 'enough'? The answer to this question is of course up to each individual.

In similar fashion though, for me as a hobbyist, I embrace the fact that trying out new tools and new processes delivers an empirical and experiential high, which is an important aspect of this past-time for me. I am less interested in 'results' from photography and more interested in the journey. Gear is an integral part of that journey. for me.