You were toast when you got the D300, burned toast with the D3 and Zeiss lenses. Not sure what comes after that, but welcome to another journey down the slippery slope
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The Changing MF Landscape: What's a Mother to do?
- Thread starter fotografz
- Start date
David,
I completely understand what you are saying. My comment to Guy was just another good ribbing at him, and both you and Marc (and others) have been so engaged and helpful in these threads that I had to drag you into that part of the fray :salute:
On a slightly more serious note, I must confess that all of this discussion has me both itching to jump in and start shooting on one hand, and nearly paralyzed confused on the other:shocked: The Sinarback is looking very good, as is the Hy6 for that matter. The Hasselblad has its attractiveness also, and there are a couple of question marks still floating there too. The Mamiya ZD is an incredible deal entry point camera with a lot of potential and promise. The landscape is still lush, but also not real easy to walk through yet.
I guess a somewhat "good" thing from my perspective for me right now is not coming in with many(any) real biases, or existing kit. (When I used to business consult, I would always caution my clients to NOT make decisions based on sunk costs, or those things already purchased, owned or in place. Really hard to get folks to not handcuff themselves with some things.) With the kinds of kits we have been discussing, existing gear and preferences can push one in one direction or another. It is funny, in a way, I shot Nikon film for 25 years, have tons of lenses, bodies and everything a shooting pro would collect. When it came time to go digital, I went "clean slate", took my own advice, and wound up going to Canon, as it was the only thing that could deliver what I needed. I was worried, yet happy with that choice then and now. My point being that all that "great glass" I had collected and used, is not so great today on digital bodies.....even those that can handle it with manual focus, etc. MF stuff does not seem quite the same, but even Marc had his own bit of revelation with new HC glass compared to his beloved older Zeiss glass.
All of that was sort of what I was driving toward from the start.....make what I think are very good choices based on what I plan to shoot, how I like shooting, and what various lines/systems have to offer. The Sinarbacks look impressive....not perfect, but very impressive. Same for the Phase and the Hasselblad backs. Schneider glass looks impressive, but so does some of the newer (and older) Hasselblad and even Mamiya glass. Same for the bodies in between. As you and others have mentioned a few times, most of the stuff out there is really good and will deliver. My task at hand is still figuring out direction and needs. All of this discussion is helping me quite a bit, and I hope it is also helping some others too.
LJ
Guy Mancuso
Administrator, Instructor
Hi guys. Just got a minute but I did decided to get a Mamiya ZD demo instead of the D3. I will use the Nikon D300 for the event and stuff like that work but will slowly build this Mamiya stuff . I stretched the budget here but the price was so good I could not resist. Just a quickie
Congrats, Guy :clap:
You are probably going to enjoy it more than even you may have imagined. The stock event shots and stuff can be covered nicely with your D300. For bigger splashes and more of your commercial shooting, the ZD is going to deliver so much more for you. And as Marc has astutely pointed out....you bill the client for renting your gear to get those shots, so it will pay for itself a lot sooner. It always seems harder to do that with the 35MM DSLRs, and the Leica is more like your passion than your work tool, so that too is hard. But hauling out the big gun gets that meter running for them :grin:
LJ
P.S. I absolutely know better than to say anything about your next lens collection.:ROTFL:
Guy Mancuso
Administrator, Instructor
I'm like butter now spread out evenly among them all. LOL
gogopix
Subscriber
Well, Guy
I can say I was tempted for a while by some of the D300 and D3 shots from you and Kurt, and the Zeiss glass. But I can get all the Zeiss glass I want in MF AND I have AF with Contax.
The M8 is still really great for size and travel, and it gets use. The DMR and long lenses are a great combos (see japps 105-280 shots, but I keep using them ONLY when I can't use the MF.
I even went back to some old Kodak back shots and they were MUCH more satisfying than what I have seen here fromn even the best Nikon (ok ok jpgs, but HEY! )
I am sure you will bring a fresh perspective to some of the MF format discussions, so keep the examples coming., and have fun!
regards
Victor
I can say I was tempted for a while by some of the D300 and D3 shots from you and Kurt, and the Zeiss glass. But I can get all the Zeiss glass I want in MF AND I have AF with Contax.
The M8 is still really great for size and travel, and it gets use. The DMR and long lenses are a great combos (see japps 105-280 shots, but I keep using them ONLY when I can't use the MF.
I even went back to some old Kodak back shots and they were MUCH more satisfying than what I have seen here fromn even the best Nikon (ok ok jpgs, but HEY!
)I am sure you will bring a fresh perspective to some of the MF format discussions, so keep the examples coming., and have fun!
regards
Victor
David K,
Now we just need to push him into using a Hassleblad or Hy6 or something similar to do his comparison shots :ROTFL:
LJ
David Klepacki
New member
Guy,
Congratulations on your ZD!
I think there is a Mamiya 28mm lens out there with your name on it .... I would love to see what you can do with it. Welcome to the world of digital MF.
Congratulations on your ZD!
I think there is a Mamiya 28mm lens out there with your name on it .... I would love to see what you can do with it. Welcome to the world of digital MF.
Guy Mancuso
Administrator, Instructor
Have to say last night after dinner Jack and I went back in the conference room and printed a couple images from the ZD and seriously we both were floored. We have 2 3800 printers all set up for this workshop and i took a couple shots yesterday nothing special but I shot them with the Mamiya 80mm 2.8 standard lens that comes with the package and I shot one at ISO200 and there is very little noise at 2.8 and the detail of Jack is amazing . Than I took one at 4.5 handheld at ISO 100 and folks for a few dollars more kicks the living stuffing out of ANY DSLR on the market. I don't like saying that stuff but reality is reality and yes this is slow and not the greatest MF setup out there and is a 22 mpx Dalsa back but I am no hurry to upgrade nor is Jack after we blew up a section that would be 8 FEET wide of the building. Maybe not the best setup out there and i know the Aptus , Hassy and Phase backs will do better but damn folks this is amazing jump up. Someday i will move up and maybe as things settle down the picture and future of MF will be clear but this is certainly a great entry ticket in to the MF world. I bought a demo unit and saved even more money so this turns out to be a no brainer so far. I will slowly build this system up. This did stretch my wallet some. LOL
BTW warning I downloaded the new LR update and my laptop is totally screwed now on my Mac Book Pro. Might want to look into this but i will have to do a complete reinstall of my system when I get home on the laptop. I also cannot see thumbnails of my ZD files at the moment. i can get LR to work but have to reboot to do it.
BTW warning I downloaded the new LR update and my laptop is totally screwed now on my Mac Book Pro. Might want to look into this but i will have to do a complete reinstall of my system when I get home on the laptop. I also cannot see thumbnails of my ZD files at the moment. i can get LR to work but have to reboot to do it.
Guy,
Hate hearing that issue about LR.....we gotta get you using SuperDuper and carrying a clone drive along just for these "emergencies" ;-)
On the ZD front.....I am so glad to hear the comments from you and Jack. It does look like an incredible entry point system for sure, but one that you can grow also. Again, I was just ribbing you about the Hassy and Sinar stuff, having been deeply immersed in that sort of study and research....plus having Marc keep pushing that bar all the time ;-) (He is a great "bad" influence!!)
And as David Klepacki mentioned, there is a Mamiya 28 out there someplace waiting for you ;-) (Yeah, that translates to about a 20mm on your ZD, but it may cost as much or more than your entire new rig!! Just thinking airplane cockpit shots w/MF.)
Looking forward to progress reports as you continue to explore with this. Not sure I will be able to stay out too much longer myself.
LJ
Hate hearing that issue about LR.....we gotta get you using SuperDuper and carrying a clone drive along just for these "emergencies" ;-)
On the ZD front.....I am so glad to hear the comments from you and Jack. It does look like an incredible entry point system for sure, but one that you can grow also. Again, I was just ribbing you about the Hassy and Sinar stuff, having been deeply immersed in that sort of study and research....plus having Marc keep pushing that bar all the time ;-) (He is a great "bad" influence!!)
And as David Klepacki mentioned, there is a Mamiya 28 out there someplace waiting for you ;-) (Yeah, that translates to about a 20mm on your ZD, but it may cost as much or more than your entire new rig!! Just thinking airplane cockpit shots w/MF.)
Looking forward to progress reports as you continue to explore with this. Not sure I will be able to stay out too much longer myself.
LJ
Guy Mancuso
Administrator, Instructor
LJ looks like I dumped it entirely and than reloaded and it is back. Just need to plug serial number in. I just realized i had the old 1.4 installed that Adobe pulled so that may have been the issue.
Anyway this may put you over the edge. certainly has me convinced. LOL
First shot at ISO 100 at 4.5 with 80mm 2.8. Not even stopped down much.
Than Jack is at 2.8 at ISO 200
Okay need to get ready for the workshop than will shoot later today after we close the workshop with some folks that are staying until tomorrow so tonight will get more stuff up but so far it is a lot of fun. Man does this bring back MF memories. LOL
Anyway this may put you over the edge. certainly has me convinced. LOL
First shot at ISO 100 at 4.5 with 80mm 2.8. Not even stopped down much.
Than Jack is at 2.8 at ISO 200
Okay need to get ready for the workshop than will shoot later today after we close the workshop with some folks that are staying until tomorrow so tonight will get more stuff up but so far it is a lot of fun. Man does this bring back MF memories. LOL
Guy Mancuso
Administrator, Instructor
I did do a little sharpening but the files can certainly handle it and still very film like. The Hassy system and others are great systems and fully loaded but yes the is a nice entry level into it and someday no question i will upgrade but at least i got a foot in the door now.
BTW i deserve all the ribbing you guys can throw at me . I have been on the fence a long time and deserve it. LOL
BTW i deserve all the ribbing you guys can throw at me . I have been on the fence a long time and deserve it. LOL
M
Mitch Alland
Guest
Guy, enjoy your new toy — er, I mean camera.
The detail of Jack's eye is indeed impressive, but it's no different than it's always been with film in comparing 35mm with MF: I remember some years ago on the old Compuserve Photo Forum Mike Johnston reported on a blind print comparison — I don't remember the print size — in which the MF prints made with fairly ordinary lenses always beat in terms of image quality the 35mm prints made with the best Leica lenses, even on the finest, slow films shot on the heaviest tripods. Nevertheless, while I understand your need — or is it desire? — for the Mamiya, I have to say (for the peace of mind of the rest of us, or at least for the tranquility of our wallets) that I have always liked the "35mm aesthetic. An example: a couple of years ago a friend shot the same series of shots with the Mamiya 7, I think it was, and the Leica M6 — in looking at the series, which had a river in it, we both consistently preferred the 35mm shots because they had more "bite".
So, all I'm doing is elaborating on the obvious: to say that the better aesthetic choice could often be the "lower image quality" of film or sensors smaller than MF. Hell, having for the last two years intentionally shot only with small sensor cameras, I'm trying to come to terms with the "exquisite" look I'm getting with the D300 — a look that I've been trying to avoid with the small sensor cameras. The question is do I want to get a more exquisite look than the one in the picture below? (Please forgive me for posting a non-MF shot here).
—Mitch/Bangkok
http://www.flickr.com/photos/10268776@N00/
The detail of Jack's eye is indeed impressive, but it's no different than it's always been with film in comparing 35mm with MF: I remember some years ago on the old Compuserve Photo Forum Mike Johnston reported on a blind print comparison — I don't remember the print size — in which the MF prints made with fairly ordinary lenses always beat in terms of image quality the 35mm prints made with the best Leica lenses, even on the finest, slow films shot on the heaviest tripods. Nevertheless, while I understand your need — or is it desire? — for the Mamiya, I have to say (for the peace of mind of the rest of us, or at least for the tranquility of our wallets) that I have always liked the "35mm aesthetic. An example: a couple of years ago a friend shot the same series of shots with the Mamiya 7, I think it was, and the Leica M6 — in looking at the series, which had a river in it, we both consistently preferred the 35mm shots because they had more "bite".
So, all I'm doing is elaborating on the obvious: to say that the better aesthetic choice could often be the "lower image quality" of film or sensors smaller than MF. Hell, having for the last two years intentionally shot only with small sensor cameras, I'm trying to come to terms with the "exquisite" look I'm getting with the D300 — a look that I've been trying to avoid with the small sensor cameras. The question is do I want to get a more exquisite look than the one in the picture below? (Please forgive me for posting a non-MF shot here).
—Mitch/Bangkok
http://www.flickr.com/photos/10268776@N00/
Guy Mancuso
Administrator, Instructor
Well Mitch the bite maybe more to do with the less amount of DR in 35mm and the small sensor compared to the MF systems. In MF in general the DR is larger which leads to looking more smooth in tonal range which is natural. i think the other reason also is the micro contrast is tighter gapped in MF compared to the more gritty ( lose term) 35mm. You know it still comes back to the old days no matter how we look at it bigger is better and it still reigns true in digital, I think that is just a fact . Not that one should prefer MF over 35mm at all . There just different and I agree 35mm does have a feel that many prefer. I do too in many ways. The MF digital systems just smooth things out more and does have a different feel to it. I still love my M8 files and that will not change. The D300 is really nice also and I am keeping that too in the kit. Terry shot all day with her's along side me with the MF and the files she will post later will really show it's stuff.
M
Mitch Alland
Guest
Guy, we're really saying the same thing but with film I don't think that MF gives greater DR; it's just that with the much greater film area the tonal transition, or gradation, is much smoother, with the rougher gradation of 35mm giving it's "bite".
—Mitch/Bangkok
http://www.flickr.com/photos/10268776@N00/
—Mitch/Bangkok
http://www.flickr.com/photos/10268776@N00/
Guy Mancuso
Administrator, Instructor
Exactly and I think that is the real difference. I should probably not compared it to film per say,because folks think of that as a comparison between the two. Really I should have said it resembles more like film but it is not like film. Hope that made sense.
M
Mitch Alland
Guest
Heh, heh. If it walks like film and quacks like film, it's...
—Mitch/Bangkok
http://www.flickr.com/photos/10268776@N00/
—Mitch/Bangkok
http://www.flickr.com/photos/10268776@N00/