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An ongoing, real-world S2 gallery

thomas

New member
It's been a while ago I tested mirror shake and limits for handheld shooting with my setup (Contax+P45).
Inspired by this thread respectively the topic mirror/shutter shake I did this test again today.

Below screenshots from Capture One showing 100% crops; sharpening set to "Version 3.7 soft look" (after that I cropped them in Photoshop and safed the files as JPGs again… so there is double JPG compression; but the crops should be still good enough to tell the story).

First of all mirror shake of the Contax is apparently not so heavy, actually it's quite soft. But, of course, clearly visible.
Attachement #1 shows a shot from tripod with mirror lock at 1/60'' (f5.6); attachment #2 shows the same but without mirror lock (both with cable release).

Attachment #3 shows one out of 5 shots taken handhold at 1/60'' (and without mirror lock, of course).
That one looks "okay" but the other 4 samples look pretty much like attachment #4. So 1/60'' is certainly not the way to go here.

Attachment #5 shows a shot taken handhold at 1/125'' (f4). I made 9 shots and 4 out of these 9 shots look like this one.
The other 5 shots look pretty much like attachment #6. So roughly 50% keepers with regard to sharpness. Still not on the safe side…
IMO mirror shake is not a real issue at this shutter speed with the Contax… so maybe someone who can shoot handhold better than me - and I guess there will be many that can - 1/125 might be okay for handheld shooting with the Contax in conjunction with a ~ 6micron sensor).

I'd be interested how well the S2 & 70mm performs at 1/125'' (the 2 shots above at 1/125'' really look very good; question is how well you can reproduce this quality… I mean over the course of time, not in a boring test like mine) and if it is possible to shoot as well at 1/60'' without a significant loss of IQ.
 
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Phil Indeblanc

Guest
Moire- indeed it is Leica's Achilles Heel. They trumpet the lack of AA filter, on M9 and S2, for what that does for resolution, and its true, but the cost is moire. It is clearly there in most urban images, and I am astonished when people claim not to ever see it. There is a very good reason why Canon etc puts AA filters on their sensors, and not just some meaningless tradition.
And that is why I don't use Cnon for any of the studio work, because of the AA filter. Kills the details in any subject with details.

I wish Leica would have made an optional AA filter. How hard is it to integrate one at the back of the lens mount(not the sensor)? With the AA, you might find yourself (at least some) at a toss up when 35mm comes out with 30+MP DSLR's (like Sony, or etc.)

If you add the filter you kill some serious IQ, if you don't you get the "occasional" moire? Add the filter, kill studio useage. take the filter off for outdoor, get color moire.

So where does this camera belong as a prime setup? The body is built so well for out of studio, it makes you want to go places with it. How often have you seen the Moire Tim?

For my non AA filter sensors/cameras, I hardly come across it in the studio, so it is a non issue for me. But with this S2 body, you are eagerly thrown out to shoot it, and you get this happen.

This S2 is almost a hybrid of MFDB studio and DSLR...can it replace both? And do it pretty well (omit sports or some high frame/ISO desires/needs).
 

tashley

Subscriber Member
The body is built so well for out of studio, it makes you want to go places with it. How often have you seen the Moire Tim?
I see it a bit, almost exactly as often as I see it on my digital M files and after having shown Lord knows how many of those to Lord knows how many people, I've had about one comment on moire and I have probably only bothered to treat it about twenty times. I know that in this price range we'd like to be able to have our cakes and eat them but the technology offers as either/or and that's it.

Having said that, C1 is pretty good at moire reduction and my preferred method when it matters is to do two C1 versions, with and without corrections, then paint the corrections on using layers. Other people have much better techniques I'm sure!

The S2 is going to be a great out of studio camera like the M's are. I'll deal with the moire, disappointing though it is...
 

tashley

Subscriber Member
Monopod-ability!

This one at 1/12th second on a cheap monopod. I shot a few today and even of those at 1/8th, about half were very sharp or at least 'sharp enough'.

Full size version can be dowloaded from the gallery at http://tashley1.zenfolio.com/img/v4/p1031184455-5.jpg

but for those who don't have the time to wait, the plane of focus is very sharp!

Best

Tim

 

thomas

New member
Re: Monopod-ability!

This one at 1/12th second on a cheap monopod. I shot a few today and even of those at 1/8th, about half were very sharp or at least 'sharp enough'.
now that sounds really very good!
Look at my quick monopod test... again at 1/60'' mirror shake becomes visible. Usable though. 1/30'' as well. But 1/15'' is useless.
But... this is the P21+!

As to moire it's not only about with or without AA filter. It's also about the microlenses. Moire on sensors without AA filter but without microlenses is much finer and much easier to correct (at least regarding the color artifacts; strong pattern moire may render an image useless... but myself I've never had such an image).
 

georgl

New member
Carefully check the 70mm for focus, choose some real-infinity samples. The samples I've seen match with the MTFs - corner performance on par or superior to Rodenstock HR (40%MTF above 50%in the corners) - otherwise the 70mm might be misscalibrated - that would be a shame. David Farkas has a nice open aperture sample, the corner crop has hard to tell apart from the center crop - that's what we should expect by such an expensive and complex design in comparison to "normal" standard lenses.

"As to moire it's not only about with or without AA filter. It's also about the microlenses."
Microlenses don't affect the sampling of detail (because they affect each photosite individually), alaising is a function of pixel-pitch, lens performance and detail. Moire is the artifact caused by debayering alaised detail and can be affected by the converter. Just try it with a P30+ and a P45+ (same sensor, with and without microlens) under the very same conditions - the moire remains the same.
 

thomas

New member
Microlenses don't affect the sampling of detail (because they affect each photosite individually), alaising is a function of pixel-pitch, lens performance and detail. Moire is the artifact caused by debayering alaised detail and can be affected by the converter. Just try it with a P30+ and a P45+ (same sensor, with and without microlens) under the very same conditions - the moire remains the same.
I've never seen this kind of moire (with bold color artifacts) from sensors without microlenses. But here and there I've seen those from microlenses sensors.
 

tashley

Subscriber Member
The MTF charts for the first four lenses to be released compare very well with those of the smae focal lengths in the M range. It's also instructive to look at the chart for the 70 Summarit versus the Phase 80mm 2.8D, a comparison that implies (I am no MTF expert here so shoot me down!) that when I est the two against each other, the Leica should be a little sharper at the edges than the Phase especially wide open.
 
The S2 is going to be a great out of studio camera like the M's are. I'll deal with the moire, disappointing though it is...
Tim, I am glad to hear this from you as it pretty much confirms my impression from shooting the S2 out of the studio for a day in November. That was make or break for me since I don't do studio. My day with the S2 also identified some things I didn't like, but most could likely be fixed via firmware. I know others that demo'd the S2 during this period had feedback to Leica as well.
In case you didn't see it before: http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12062
 

stephengilbert

Active member
I don't get this. You people are buying a camera that isn't right yet, and are happy because you're confident Leica will eventually correct the little problems you and others have found.

Is it too much to ask that they correct those problems before cashing your check?
 

tashley

Subscriber Member
I don't get this. You people are buying a camera that isn't right yet, and are happy because you're confident Leica will eventually correct the little problems you and others have found.

Is it too much to ask that they correct those problems before cashing your check?
Not too much, perfectly reasonable in fact. It just happens to be not the way the world works. Aspects of my Phase gear weren't up to snuff at first delivery, and that has been true of a number of systems in which I've invested at various times. FW is always a work in progress and often hits peak performance round about the time that the model of camera is getting long in the tooth. I don't like this scenario any more than you do but I decided to pay up and you seem to have decided not to!
 

carstenw

Active member
I do understand Tim, and his experience with the S2 so far has probably been better than with the Phase system. However, I absolutely do not understand Peter. He was the heftiest critic of Leica and the S2 by some margin, with some of the points made coming in below the belt, IMO, and yet he goes out and buys one even before Leica fixes any of the issues. I would have been less surprised to wake up one morning with an S2 next to me!
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
I think it should be noted both Tim and Peter have full MF systems still in there cabinets. So buying a S2 at this time besides the money puts them in no real danger of not being able to complete a shooting job or something being shot where they are fully able to handle something comfortably with there existing systems.
 

tashley

Subscriber Member
I think it should be noted both Tim and Peter have full MF systems still in there cabinets. So buying a S2 at this time besides the money puts them in no real danger of not being able to complete a shooting job or something being shot where they are fully able to handle something comfortably with there existing systems.
Precisely Guy. Only an idiot would do a trade-in at this stage if they depended on being able to reliably shoot MF. There are still too many issues to bottom out and too much risk that other issues might be below the waterline.
 

georgl

New member
@tashley
When the 70mm really offers poor corner performance you shouldn't accept that, I have seen some early samples (even prototypes!) which showed some serious detail in the corners at open aperture (at least beyond 2m distance, I haven't seen really close focus open aperture samples with corner detail) - but DoF is really critical.
Where have you seen MTFs for the Schneider/Phase-lenses?

@thomas
Just imagine using a tiny line-sensor with four photosites. As soon as detail close to Nyquist (2lp/mm or 4 lines) is projected (by a lens) to this array of photosites alaising occurs. That's physics and there's nothing you can do against it without lowering MTF. You can add an AA-Filter which lowers the contrast of fine detail at Nyquist to zero because it affects the sampling of information by the photosites by "spreading" information over adjacent photosites (that's why the image appears softer).
But microlenses are just what their name implies: tiny lenses positioned individually over each photosite. Oblique light rays can produce lot's of weird effects like vignetting - but it doesn't affect the detection of light between photosites. I hope that's a useful explanation...

You cannot compare the S2 regarding moire to other systems, because it's closed (different lenses) - but try it yourself with two MFDBs using the same sensor-architecture (31MP vs. 39MP-backs), even the tiniest change will change the appearence of moire (minor misscalibration of the tripod while changing the back for example). Lenses with high contrast at high frequencies usually make it worse, while weaker lenses work as some kind of AA-filter.

I think Leica's statement regarding moire meant the internal JPG-processing which tries to suppress alaising - pretty pointless because JPGs won't be used for professional work anyway.
 

tashley

Subscriber Member
@tashley
When the 70mm really offers poor corner performance you shouldn't accept that, I have seen some early samples (even prototypes!) which showed some serious detail in the corners at open aperture (at least beyond 2m distance, I haven't seen really close focus open aperture samples with corner detail) - but DoF is really critical.
Where have you seen MTFs for the Schneider/Phase-lenses?
http://www.phaseone.com/Lenses/Digital-AF-80mm/~/media/Phase One/Products/Documents/80mm.ashx

Can't find an MTF for the LS lens, sorry!
 

markowich

New member
I do understand Tim, and his experience with the S2 so far has probably been better than with the Phase system. However, I absolutely do not understand Peter. He was the heftiest critic of Leica and the S2 by some margin, with some of the points made coming in below the belt, IMO, and yet he goes out and buys one even before Leica fixes any of the issues. I would have been less surprised to wake up one morning with an S2 next to me!
carsten,
you are right, but even a scientist has the right to be irrational once in a while---))) and as i said i did like the feel of it. anyway, it went back to maker.
i shall give them a list of my issues, so i hope to do some good to the community.
peter
 
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