An ongoing, real-world S2 gallery

[tashley]

I thought this might be useful for some people. As I get to know the camera better I'll post a selection of shots that show some or other aspect of the system's performance and behaviour. So the shots aren't supposed to impress either artistically or technically, but merely to show, for example, what different ISO performance is like or whether the AF is accurate or what the DOF is like with various lenses at various apertures etc.

All the seaside shots with today's date were taken using a Gitzo 3 series CF tripod with Arca cube head, some with a 2 second self timer (which puts the mirror up before the countdown) and some without. In other words, they can't be used to tell you how hand-holdable the camera is. Over the next days I will post some that try to test that aspect.

All these were developed in LR3 and mostly with a light-touch approach to development. Some are slightly cropped. If anyone has individual questions about that please ask.

The two of the wharfside buildings are one of my standard test shots. I shot them on both the 70 and 180mm lenses at ISO Pull 80 so as to get the slowest shutter speeds possible in order to test the combination of camera and tripod setup to see if there are any shutter speeds that induce a shake. So far I can't say that there are, but it was pretty gusty and to do this test really accurately needs a very calm day. In any event I learned from this test that both lenses seem to hit their sweet spots for resolution at F8.

Otherwise, I have no real comments so far other than to say that the system is a real pleasure to use. Tomorrow I will try it with a monopod to see how I get on!

The gallery is at the address below and the images are all full size JPEG, many at 100% though some are saved at lower quality so as the meet Zenfolio file size limits of 24 MB. Right-clicking on an image will allow you to download the full-sized version.

Zenfolio | Tim Ashley | S2 Samples

Best

Tim

 

[thomas]

the system is a real pleasure to use.

sounds nice - congratulations!
May I ask why you switched from Phase to Leica? Did you expect any improvements IQ wise or was it a decession with regard to the handling of the camera?

 

[tashley]

sounds nice - congratulations!
May I ask why you switched from Phase to Leica? Did you expect any improvements IQ wise or was it a decession with regard to the handling of the camera?

It's partly a handling thing. The IQ is pretty much a wash, possibly better higher ISO on the S2 than the P45+ but that's it. Additionally I like the weather sealing though I never had an issue with the Phase kit on that front.

A big attraction for me is the 2:3 rather than 3:4 format. I generally prefer 2:3 and often end up cropping my Phase files that way, so on the S2 I sort of get the pixels more where I want them, effectively I'd need a Phase 42.5mp back to get the same file (I think!)

More attractive still is that I can pack a tiny charger, a body and say three lenses and, assuming (or hoping rather) that the expected 24mm lens is good and sharp to the corners, I can cover all the bases that I need to pack a lot more Phase stuff to deal with. The main Phase charger is pretty large (though it does charge two batteries) but you also need two small or one large NiCad charger for the body's batteries, plus I am not crazy about the 28D on the P45+ so I carry a tech cam with a Schneider lens, blah blah.

Then there's that the SF58 works well on both the S2 and the M9 (which I use a lot) so there's another trip packing advantage. I just want fewer 'bits' in my life!

However, it is NOT an obvious wash in favour of the S2 at all... there are a zillion factors to bottom out and though first signs are good, I still have the Phase gear and will not be making decisions about which to keep for a while yet.

Best

Tim

 

[xpixel]

Thanks for this first S2 pictures... Can you say how big is the difference in image quality S2 vs M9?

 

[thomas]

it is NOT an obvious wash in favour of the S2 at all... there are a zillion factors to bottom out and though first signs are good, I still have the Phase gear and will not be making decisions about which to keep for a while yet.

Makes sense, thank you!

I've looked at your samples (thanks a lot for sharing!) and noticed some things you might keep an eye on.
But probably you've already seen it...

First moire (image S2090042 / promenade+boats). I am honestly still amazed Leica stated they couldn't find any moire.
This is a kind of moire (or color artifact) that is typical for microlenses sensors.
Most obvious in the bars of the balconies but also e.g. in the cords of the ceramic artwork.
I'd consider this an serious issue (for landscape/architecture) as it is not that easy to correct. It's too bold to be corrected with a moire tool - you have to correct it by hand in Photoshop.

Secondly noise ("grain") even at base ISO in the sky (image S2090031 / beach)
This might be just an post processing issue as it is acually caused by posterization in the red chanel.
I know this from my small DSLR, but it is something very, very rare with files from my P45 and P21+ (only occurs after heavy post work).

Finally even at f8 with the 70mm there is sharpness falloff at the edges. It's maybe not a problem, I just don't see Leicas promises fulfilled.
I'm sure the pubished MTF charts are 100% correct. But I doubt someone really tested the lenses with this microlenses sensor when Leica made their PR claims about the superiority of the lenses ("sharp to the edges even wide open...") - maybe they are, but obviously not in conjunction with this sensor.

I am anxious to hear about your further testing of handhold shooting... maybe this is the field where the S2 shines.

 

[tashley]

Makes sense, thank you!

I've looked at your samples (thanks a lot for sharing!) and noticed some things you might keep an eye on.
But probably you've already seen it...

First moire (image S2090042 / promenade+boats). I am honestly still amazed Leica stated they couldn't find any moire.
This is a kind of moire (or color artifact) that is typical for microlenses sensors.
Most obvious in the bars of the balconies but also e.g. in the cords of the ceramic artwork.
I'd consider this an serious issue (for landscape/architecture) as it is not that easy to correct. It's too bold to be corrected with a moire tool - you have to correct it by hand in Photoshop.

Secondly noise ("grain") even at base ISO in the sky (image S2090031 / beach)
This might be just an post processing issue as it is acually caused by posterization in the red chanel.
I know this from my small DSLR, but it is something very, very rare with files from my P45 and P21+ (only occurs after heavy post work).

Finally even at f8 with the 70mm there is sharpness falloff at the edges. It's maybe not a problem, I just don't see Leicas promises fulfilled.
I'm sure the pubished MTF charts are 100% correct. But I doubt someone really tested the lenses with this microlenses sensor when Leica made their PR claims about the superiority of the lenses ("sharp to the edges even wide open...") - maybe they are, but obviously not in conjunction with this sensor.

I am anxious to hear about your further testing of handhold shooting... maybe this is the field where the S2 shines.

Thomas, you are right about the moire and that is one of the reasons I use this test scene. I have sometimes seen some moire from the P45+ but not this strong. However I always develop P45+ files in C1 and when I open the S2 file you refer to in C1 the moire is far less of a problem. This might be a LR3 Beta issue. I will investigate. There is clearly the potential for an issue here.

I have plenty of series of test shots with both the Phamiya 80mm and the new leaf shutter 80mm with the P45+ which show less than perfect edges until medium apertures. Only a side by side comparison with the S2 (which I don't have time to do right now) will tell for sure but I think there won't be much in it. It is irritating when Leica says that lenses are perfect wide open - I think they claim that for some M glass where it obviously isn't true. I am not disappointed by the 80mm Summarit but I am not wowed by it either. The 180mm is more impressive, as others have observed. The real test will be the wides. It is worth bearing in mind that a 4/3 aspect ratio fits into a smaller image circle than a 2/3 (I think?) and therefore the Leica corners are more challenged - though of course it is a challenge they set themselves and declare themselves to have won.

As to the grain in the sky, my fault! look at

http://tashley1.zenfolio.com/img/v7/p3678114.jpg

for a LR default conversion and see the difference...

But I would stress, again, that the point of this gallery is NOT to judge IQ. Really, NOT. You just can't, what with JPEG conversion, sRGB colour space, a million choices of RAW treatment, etc etc. The point really was to look more at issues of DOF, camera shake, lens quality...

HTH

T

 

[Guy Mancuso]

I think the 180mm is the better lens Tim out of our testing I was more wowed by it than the 70mm although very good but your only going to squeeze so much out of them . Even the lowly Mamiya 200 2.8 apo manual focus was matching it pretty well. Now also Tim I can tell you right out of the gate the S2 noise levels are much better than the P45+ so for you there is your advantage after ISO 400 on the P45+ it just gives up. I noticed this in several tests I have done on the P30+, P40, P65 and P45 tests the P45+ is in last place over those backs. LR maybe the better choice right now Tim for the s2 although it still does nothing for me. If you do go into C1 obviously the color profile is off but really watch sharpening on the s2 it just does not match up real well in C1 with the noise algorithms . Now suggestion got to pre sharpening 1 than lower the top amount to 130 instead of 200 and it will look more natural. As Jack and I said in our review and will repeat here nothing is really ready for the S2 in terms of raw processing except raw developer but have not tried it yet. Might be worth your time to re read the review again and get a better feel for what we found and make any adjustments needed. DOF obviously smaller sensor than your P45+ so right there you will gain a little in DOF but maybe not much. The bokeh pretty much matched the P40+ and DOF but that is only a 8 percent increase on the P40 in sensor size so looks like it did not mean much . The P45 obviously bigger sensor. As far as wide open performance I saw no real difference at all in the center, out to the edges we really did not test but again who the hell shoots wide open and expects good corners . LOL I find those comments slightly weird myself any MF shooter I know rarely gets to 2.8 anyway and the difference at F4 in bokeh is not worth shooting 2.8 if that was what someone is after in the first place . Obviously if it is low light that maybe a different story. You simple can't compare these to 35mm in those regards , honestly makes little sense to me. I would rather have a clean ISO 800 and use that instead and make sure I am sharp at F4 but that is me.

In regard to camera shake the S2 has a smoother or at least quieter shutter and my bet maybe squeeze a little extra in shutter speed but honestly the Phase body I hold better in low light because i can get the whole bottom in my left hand better as my support, this will be different for some folks obviously. The S2 has heavier and bulkier lenses and the Phase has a heavier back end with the body and back so it is going to come down to balance and how YOU hold the camera. This will be a personal preference IMHO. Depends how you like the balance.

 

[David K]

Tim, thanks for this post. I'm looking forward to seeing and hearing more about the S2.

 

[tashley]

I think the 180mm is the better lens Tim out of our testing I was more wowed by it than the 70mm although very good but your only going to squeeze so much out of them . Even the lowly Mamiya 200 2.8 apo manual focus was matching it pretty well. Now also Tim I can tell you right out of the gate the S2 noise levels are much better than the P45+ so for you there is your advantage after ISO 400 on the P45+ it just gives up. I noticed this in several tests I have done on the P30+, P40, P65 and P45 tests the P45+ is in last place over those backs.

Good to see that what I am finding matches what you guys saw! I think it's helpful for others to hear the same things from multiple sources so a body of opinion builds up.

LR maybe the better choice right now Tim for the s2 although it still does nothing for me. If you do go into C1 obviously the color profile is off but really watch sharpening on the s2 it just does not match up real well in C1 with the noise algorithms . Now suggestion got to pre sharpening 1 than lower the top amount to 130 instead of 200 and it will look more natural. As Jack and I said in our review and will repeat here nothing is really ready for the S2 in terms of raw processing except raw developer but have not tried it yet.

I tried your recipe this morning and I agree that it works very well. I have so far been using LR3 for S2 files but critical observation suggests that though it has closed the gap from where LR2 is, it is still not quite as good - and its lack of moire treatment is a bore. So for now I'll use one or the other depending on the file: if there's moire, it's C1: if there's specular highlights or the colour is more critical, it's LR3. But I will try David's ICC profile too...

Might be worth your time to re read the review again and get a better feel for what we found and make any adjustments needed.

I re-read it from top to toe last night and discovered many a plum! Thank you again, you two!

who the hell shoots wide open and expects good corners . LOL I find those comments slightly weird myself any MF shooter I know rarely gets to 2.8 anyway and the difference at F4 in bokeh is not worth shooting 2.8 if that was what someone is after in the first place . Obviously if it is low light that maybe a different story. You simple can't compare these to 35mm in those regards , honestly makes little sense to me. I would rather have a clean ISO 800 and use that instead and make sure I am sharp at F4 but that is me.

I agree - unless you want the tip of an eyelash in focus and the eyeball in bokeh-land, there's rarely any point if the light isn't so low as to force you to.

In regard to camera shake the S2 has a smoother or at least quieter shutter and my bet maybe squeeze a little extra in shutter speed but honestly the Phase body I hold better in low light because i can get the whole bottom in my left hand better as my support, this will be different for some folks obviously. The S2 has heavier and bulkier lenses and the Phase has a heavier back end with the body and back so it is going to come down to balance and how YOU hold the camera. This will be a personal preference IMHO. Depends how you like the balance.

I tend to hold the lens cupped in my left hand, with my left elbow rammed hard into my left side as a support - so the S2 is so far working well for me but I must try a lot more handheld work before making a real judgement.

Best

T

 

[tashley]

Tim, thanks for this post. I'm looking forward to seeing and hearing more about the S2.

Thanks David - and have no fear, you will hear more!

 

[thomas]

...

Thanks Tim.
You seem to have a sober-minded and balanced view on the S2 (and Leica) and its capabilities. Very good.
Have fun with the camera!

 

[Dale Allyn]

Good thread, Tim. Thank you. I enjoy reading your observations.

 

[tashley]

I have posted some walkaround handheld shots form this afternoon in my S2 gallery. Out of about twenty shots I had one with any visible shake even at 100% on screen.

ISO mode was set to Auto with ISO max of 640 and shutter of 1/f which in practice with the 70mm lens means 1/125th and higher. This seems to be pretty much nearly always enough to get rid of shake but as you can see that does mean that in the failing light of a winter's day, apertures are wide and DOF very narrow, as in this one:

You can get the 100% from the gallery.



Shot 17 shows something different: taken at 0.7 second with the 2 second self-timer and MUP, the camera was simply rested on the edge of a pulpit, rather than being bolted to $3,000 worth of carbon fibre and aluminium...

Get the 100% version to see that there is not a jot of shake. None. I find that impressive, and very much what I most hoped to find...

The gallery is at..

http://tashley1.zenfolio.com/p627107524/h2ace9bad#h2ace9bad

 

[sendog]

Thomas, you are right about the moire and that is one of the reasons I use this test scene. I have sometimes seen some moire from the P45+ but not this strong. However I always develop P45+ files in C1 and when I open the S2 file you refer to in C1 the moire is far less of a problem. This might be a LR3 Beta issue. I will investigate. There is clearly the potential for an issue here.

I have plenty of series of test shots with both the Phamiya 80mm and the new leaf shutter 80mm with the P45+ which show less than perfect edges until medium apertures. Only a side by side comparison with the S2 (which I don't have time to do right now) will tell for sure but I think there won't be much in it. It is irritating when Leica says that lenses are perfect wide open - I think they claim that for some M glass where it obviously isn't true. I am not disappointed by the 80mm Summarit but I am not wowed by it either. The 180mm is more impressive, as others have observed. The real test will be the wides. It is worth bearing in mind that a 4/3 aspect ratio fits into a smaller image circle than a 2/3 (I think?) and therefore the Leica corners are more challenged - though of course it is a challenge they set themselves and declare themselves to have won.
T

First time on this forum! thanks for useful posts.

I presume you mean the 70mm Summarit? (not 80mm) can you explain further why you are 'not wowed' by it? This lens is after all the 'standard' and was a motivation to buy into the system... My order is in because I am interested in using this lens. I may cancel or pass if it does not come up to expectations.

also have you compared the 80mm LS lens on the Phase against the D one - any improvement optically? I am not interested in the Leaf Shutter itself, but am always looking for better resolution at wider apertures. Mamiya make some pretty good glass imho, and the D range has great quality control, so it would not surprise me if the Schneider isn't really an improvement at all.

Moire- indeed it is Leica's Achilles Heel. They trumpet the lack of AA filter, on M9 and S2, for what that does for resolution, and its true, but the cost is moire. It is clearly there in most urban images, and I am astonished when people claim not to ever see it. There is a very good reason why Canon etc puts AA filters on their sensors, and not just some meaningless tradition.

Lastly: Guy - of course one does not buy into MF to shoot near wide open, thats dslr territory, but, sometimes it is useful and one should have the ability to work at f2.8-f4 with these expensive optics, and expect decent results. maybe not right in the extreme corner, but certainly in the broad central area. I was hoping the S2 standard optics would be a clear leader in this regard, but it sounds not, from what is being said here.

 

[sendog]

oh and: where are you people getting your upgrade DF bodies from?!

I've had mine on order since it was announced, but not a peep from my dealer (major USA) despite me making a total nuisance of myself! The feeling I have is that Phase is prioritizing new system buyers over upgrade customers.

 

[tashley]

First time on this forum! thanks for useful posts.

I presume you mean the 70mm Summarit? (not 80mm) can you explain further why you are 'not wowed' by it? This lens is after all the 'standard' and was a motivation to buy into the system... My order is in because I am interested in using this lens. I may cancel or pass if it does not come up to expectations.

also have you compared the 80mm LS lens on the Phase against the D one - any improvement optically? I am not interested in the Leaf Shutter itself, but am always looking for better resolution at wider apertures. Mamiya make some pretty good glass imho, and the D range has great quality control, so it would not surprise me if the Schneider isn't really an improvement at all.

Moire- indeed it is Leica's Achilles Heel. They trumpet the lack of AA filter, on M9 and S2, for what that does for resolution, and its true, but the cost is moire. It is clearly there in most urban images, and I am astonished when people claim not to ever see it. There is a very good reason why Canon etc puts AA filters on their sensors, and not just some meaningless tradition.

Lastly: Guy - of course one does not buy into MF to shoot near wide open, thats dslr territory, but, sometimes it is useful and one should have the ability to work at f2.8-f4 with these expensive optics, and expect decent results. maybe not right in the extreme corner, but certainly in the broad central area. I was hoping the S2 standard optics would be a clear leader in this regard, but it sounds not, from what is being said here.

Welcome!

I do mean the 70 mm, sorry, doh! And it is a very good lens: it's just that the equivalent lenses by other MF manufacturers are very good too! As Guy says, none of them are perfect to the edges wide open, it just doesn't happen, whatever the hype. I would say that the Summarit is an excellent lens and that the reason it doesn't really wow me is that I am accustomed to the Phamiya 80D which is also excellent. I mildly prefer the bokeh of the Summarit though, I think! I, like you was hoping for a bit more but then I really should have gotten used to decoding marketing hype by now...

As for the 80mm Phamiya LS lens, I did a comparison months ago and posted it here:

http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10527

You will se that we are in 'angels on pinheads' territory here whne it comes to telling them apart. I suspect that sample variation would be more important: the first Mammy 80D I took delivery of was a dog...

Best

Tim

 

[tashley]

oh and: where are you people getting your upgrade DF bodies from?!

I've had mine on order since it was announced, but not a peep from my dealer (major USA) despite me making a total nuisance of myself! The feeling I have is that Phase is prioritizing new system buyers over upgrade customers.

That's what the Phase UK rep told me they'd do from the outset so I'm not surprised... I'm still waiting on mine...

 

[tashley]

Good thread, Tim. Thank you. I enjoy reading your observations.

Thanks Dale... I'm just hoping to have some other owners to explore all this stuff with soon!

 

[Guy Mancuso]

First time on this forum! thanks for useful posts.

I presume you mean the 70mm Summarit? (not 80mm) can you explain further why you are 'not wowed' by it? This lens is after all the 'standard' and was a motivation to buy into the system... My order is in because I am interested in using this lens. I may cancel or pass if it does not come up to expectations.

also have you compared the 80mm LS lens on the Phase against the D one - any improvement optically? I am not interested in the Leaf Shutter itself, but am always looking for better resolution at wider apertures. Mamiya make some pretty good glass imho, and the D range has great quality control, so it would not surprise me if the Schneider isn't really an improvement at all.

Moire- indeed it is Leica's Achilles Heel. They trumpet the lack of AA filter, on M9 and S2, for what that does for resolution, and its true, but the cost is moire. It is clearly there in most urban images, and I am astonished when people claim not to ever see it. There is a very good reason why Canon etc puts AA filters on their sensors, and not just some meaningless tradition.

Lastly: Guy - of course one does not buy into MF to shoot near wide open, thats dslr territory, but, sometimes it is useful and one should have the ability to work at f2.8-f4 with these expensive optics, and expect decent results. maybe not right in the extreme corner, but certainly in the broad central area. I was hoping the S2 standard optics would be a clear leader in this regard, but it sounds not, from what is being said here.

Both the 80D and 70 summarit are very good in the center not a issue at all wide open. Please do see the S2 review and you will see samples of this plus raw files you can download. Take the hour out of your day and read that whole review. It gives a great idea of the S2 and actually the Phase P40+ as well and many Raw files to download and compare . Also BTW welcome to the forum. Here is the link http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12243

Anyone even thinking of getting the S2 should read this review, it's awesome if i say so myself. LOL

 

[Guy Mancuso]

That's what the Phase UK rep told me they'd do from the outset so I'm not surprised... I'm still waiting on mine...

Just starting to be shipped Tim. Should be real soon to get yours. I just got mine a production version and it does rock so much nicer over the AFDIII and better than the demo also.