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Advice needed: Why would I buy a 50 MP back instead if 39 MP?

Jeff Turner

Member
Paul:

Jack makes many good points always offers and a lot of experience and well thought out discourses that I think we all draw upon. I would add a couple of minor points based on my own beginning evaluations of changing systems.

Some perspective first. I am primarily a landscape shooter, occasionally also doing interior and portrait shoots. I currently use a Mamiya AFD2 with a Leaf 75s back (also a Dalsa sensor). I would agree with Jack and that the Dalsa sensors do render differently than Kodak sensors. There is something more "natural" looking to the images. Smoother, but not less detailed. Skin tones, maybe better, in general, compared to Kodak sensor based backs...but then software can generally remedy any issues there.

I briefly played with the new Phase One 645DF and I must say, first gut impressions...lighter, more modern looking, just as solid feeling, natural to hold in the hands. I was amazed at the difference in AF speed compared to the AFD2. It felt as satisfying as a pro dslr (Nikon, Canon)....fast, and absolutely no hunting around in dimly lit corners of rooms. Shutter release felt nearly instantaneous, as fast as my Nikon D3. I now feel that I can dump my Nikon gear if replaced with the new Phase body. The other thing is that the shutter in the DF is so much better damped compared to the AFD2. My AFD2 feels like it actually jumps a little while hand holding, thus explaining why I can't get clean shots on a tripod with a 300mm lens at shutter speeds under 1/30 sec. The DF does not jump at all in my hands, and I believe Guy has posted images taken with his DF and 300mm lens at slow shutter speeds showing much less blurring compared to his previous AFD3.

I have not ever used a Hasselblad so I can't comment nor compare. I have owned and used Nikon and Canon pro dslrs, and with the DF, I do not feel like I would be missing anything except high frame rates for those rare times I need that.

You didn't state your preferred photographic genre. So one other thought. If you are shooting landscapes and plan on ever stitching with a technical camera, consider getting the widest possible sensor in a medium format back you can afford. Performing single row stitches with a 54 or 56 mm wide sensor in portrait orientation vs. 48 or 49 mm wide sensors can actually yield a true 6x7 frame. This can be accomplished with many of the newer Rodenstock and Schneider digital lenses available now for tech cameras. Very large files, YES, but that yields the capability to print really large too without interpolation, if you should so desire.

Those are some of my thoughts as I am going through, somewhat the same evaluation you are. Hope that is of some help.

Cheers, Jeff
 

Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
Jeff,

Good points on the DF body that I forgot to mention! I'll elaborate -- with a 300mm lens and MLU, the AFD2/3 bodies were almost useless at 1/15th second due to shutter bounce, even with MLU and delay or cable release. 1/8th and 1/30th were usable, but a slight amount of shutter bounce was still visible. I can confirm that 1/15th still appears to be the worst speed on the DF body, but the effect of bounce is visibly less than it was on the prior bodies even at 1/8th -- and in fact, actually quite usable. However, for very critical work, I still would recommend avoiding 1/15th with long lenses -- 1/8th and 1/30th are totally usable now though, IMO.
 

Jeff Turner

Member
...and Paul, one more point. The collective experience offered here has always been very useful for me personally. And if it isn't quite obvious, there is a considerable Mamiya/Phase bias in the posts thus far in this thread. Not that it is a bad thing. Just consider other possibilities that may fit you better.

The only way to tell what is a good fit for YOU is to actually use the equipment. Don't use this advice to make a purchase, but use it to guide your setting up of actual demos of the equipment, and absolutely, "test drive" the equipment in the shooting venues you frequent so you can see if a piece of gear is really going to serve you well.

Purchasing something this expensive in the beginning of your career, and not getting the best fit for you will be infuriating. I think most of the rants on any forum regarding digital medium format comes from those who did not thoroughly test equipment to make sure the fit was the best possible for themselves. And then, we only have ourselves to blame.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Would not really call it bias on the Phase just that is what most folks own on the forum. Also myself very much included most will not speak of other systems that they are not totally sure about with regards to specs and such. i know I certainly fall in that area with Hassy but by no means I don't like that system as well. Just hate to put something out there that I am not 100 percent sure on in regards to other systems and most folks fit in that area as well. Frankly as it should be in some cases, often too many times something is said that is not accurate on systems and that causes confusion. When I have a Hassy question I call on David from Hassy or other members here to correct me or to expand on a area that I am not sure of. My only bias is it better freaking work in my hands or I WILL toss it out a window. :D

But I totally agree on getting these systems in your hands and trying them out and BTW i wish there where more Hassy users here so spread the word. EVERYONE is welcome here
 

Jeff Turner

Member
Sorry Guy, was not intending to come off as critical. I prefer Mamiya/Phase myself as well, but wanted Paul to make as informed a decision as possible. Bias is also not a bad thing. Those of us using Mamiya/Phase are biased because of our good experiences using the equipment. Hasselblad may actually fit Paul's style of shooting better, I don't really know, though.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Sorry Guy, was not intending to come off as critical. I prefer Mamiya/Phase myself as well, but wanted Paul to make as informed a decision as possible. Bias is also not a bad thing. Those of us using Mamiya/Phase are biased because of our good experiences using the equipment. Hasselblad may actually fit Paul's style of shooting better, I don't really know, though.
No Jeff did not think you where but was explaining maybe the lack of Hassy info. here on there latest systems. We just have few people that will delve into the whole Hassy system.
 

Dale Allyn

New member
Paul: Lots of good advice/info in this thread but I didn't see this one tidbit mentioned that may help your battery life in the interim (my apologies if I missed it above): Always store your AFD II with the battery holder out of the grip. This includes, in my case, in the field if my camera is in my pack/bag. The AFD II has a leak and will drain batteries constantly. This is not the case with the AFD III, and it seems the newest DF goes "forever" on one set of batteries. ;)
 

Jeff Turner

Member
Glad I did not offend Guy; it certainly is never my intention. This has got to be one of the most polite and helpful forums on the web for photographers.
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Yes, definitely go try it all out first. And yes, as Jeff points out, there is definitely a bias for Mamiya/Phase One posted here.

Personally I used both systems for a number of years (but not the new Phase Body which is very recent). I ditched the Mamiya because it didn't fit my needs ... didn't focus as well, viewfinder was dimmer, required 2 sets of batteries including AAs for the camera, as well as there was no waist level finder for the Mamiya 645 (and there still isn't that option).

But, as Jack points out some of that has been dealt with in the new Phase One body ... so trying a Phase One Body may be the easiest and most rational path.

For me, the newer H4D is my choice as far as upgrades to functionality ... for the way I shoot, True Focus with APL (Absolute Position Lock) is a big deal and of more value than most any other attribute I can think of ... the other not often discussed H function is the Ultra Focus AF Micro Adjust feature that uses lens data and f-stop selected to assure optimal focus at any given f-stop.


FYI, the H3D-II 39, and H3D-II/50 digital back IQ improvement over the H3D/39 were in the area of superior sensor cooling for lower noise, a superior AA filter and a larger LCD along with minor ergonomic operational improvements (many of which were retro applied to previous H cameras via firmware.)


In addition to the True Focus APL AF and new, high resolution LCD with improved viewing angle, the H4D has improved the AF assist lights for low light work (WaHoo!), increased read-write performance on Sandisk Extreme Pro cards. The H4D/60 will also use the Dalsa sensor.

-Marc
 

Don Libby

Well-known member
Ken brings up a good suggestion with the Energizer Ultimate Lithium’s. I used these batteries in my AFDII on my Alaska trip with great results. I also used them in my AFDIII the short time I used it prior to selling all my Mamiya lenses and body and going completely with a technical camera. I can specifically pin point the reason however I’ve never been a huge fan of rechargeable AA’s; I am on the other hand a huge fan of Ultimate Lithium’s.

Also wanted to add that when or if I ever decide to start shooting MF with something other than a technical camera I wouldn’t hesitate in the lest with going with the newer DF body and picking up “D” lenses all over again. I’ll readily admit being partial to Phase One and Mamiya glass simply as I have a history with them and have gotten great results.

Jeff T. said it best; you need to fit the system to your own wants and needs. I tried a Hassy at the very beginning and found within the first couple hours it wasn’t “right” for me; a lot of it has to do with how it fits and feels in your hands and how it works when it’s up to your eyes. There’s a wealth of information here with little to no bias – just straight talking points. My recommendation is not to be fixated on “brand” rather go with what fits you the best and what will help you grow as a photographer.

If you haven’t done so yet it would be great to see some of your work as well.

Don
 

ptomsu

Workshop Member
If I had a 39MP back I would not change because of 11MP more - never.

If I would change I would go for 60MP - H4D60.
 

Dustbak

Member
I have a 39MP back and would not be upgrading for the 11MP. I would be upgrading for:

1) The better AF of the H4D.
2) Upgrade single shot 39MP to a multishot H4D50MS
3) Upgrade to the larger sensor 60MP.

BTW I somehow got the idea that the newer great Mamiya glass was getting in a pretty similar price range as the H glass?

Would be nice to put the costs of glass side by side to compare?
 
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Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Well I changed from the 31mpx to 40 MPX ( P30+ to P40+) so Mpx numbers is not that much . Maybe i can help with this some as to why I did upgrade. First it was the technology of the newer 6 micron Dalsa sensor. No micro lenses and ability to use on Tech camera. Also I was after better higher ISO which at full resolution I did gain some here but was really after Sensor Plus but that don't count here for the OP so much.

One thing to consider besides the technical end which i had to face but it was more the value of my system as the P30+ used prices kept sliding and the P40+ as a new back in the market with the newer technology would hold it's value better. Not that it may mean a lot if you held onto a back for quite sometime it may not matter but I am on my 4th back in 2 years which is not considered normal. But I also kept going up and either increasing the value of my system or increased the usability of my system.

I guess this is something also to consider in the Hassy 39 going to the Hassy 50 which is very much like the P30 to P40 as to different sensors and maybe more usability in the Hassy 50 or even a different look. Not sure this helps but thought i would throw it in there as some reasons to upgrade. Some of this may not be applicable to your situation but some things i thought about and finally made the push up. One a technical side you need to compare the two backs in question and see what the upgrade path actually does on the technical side . This goes for anyone or anything on upgrades and that is to figure out what value you place on that upgrade. In the end for me it was a good move up and made a lot of sense. Now coming from a guy that is own his 4th back in 2 years one may think i just like new toy's. Actually very far from it even though my title of gear slut is fully in place, I never do anything like upgrades without FULL investigation and homework which i seriously have to justify as a Pro shooter and business owner. It may sound very light footed but really these are tough calls to make and it has to make sense. Also I did a lot of testing on the P40+ on two different workshops that we did just to be sure as well. Not always a option in some cases and i consider that to be somewhat lucky to have that chance but it is worth a demo at least to a upgrade back in any flavor to compare the files.
 

Don Libby

Well-known member
Guy, very good points on the reason(s) for upgrading; I upgraded from a P30+ to P45+ primarily due to the change in systems (645 body to technical body). Had the P40 been around and available I might have gone with it. Currently my upgrade path would be to a P65 however after much soul searching I’ve come to the conclusion that for now it just isn’t worth it for me. Speaking just from the technical side, the cost of my upgrading to the P65 would net me ½ of the total cost as I don’t normally need the full technical upgrade offered. In other words I’d be paying thousands of dollars and only using ½ or less to get the extra pixels for my technical camera. Besides, I'd rather invest in lenses.

I shouldn’t be considered “normal” as all I shoot is landscape – I simply have no desire to do anything else.

Don
 

mark1958

Member
I have the H3DII-31 and purchased because of the price and better high iso capabilities and performance at the time both the 39 and 31 were released. However, I find that the cropped sensor is sometimes limiting and have considered upgrading to the 39. I then said why not the 50. But I have to say that some of Paul's initial points are the exact thoughts that I have agonized over. The price differential between a demo 39 and a new or demo 50 is quite substantial, and I just cannot justify it at this point. Then i go back and think about how much i will gain by going from the 31 to 39. Then i consider some of Guy's comments about dropping values. I also wonder once the H4D-60s are shipped, if the price of the 50s will fall since Hasselblad had the promotion through the end of Dec --buy a 50 and get a 60 when available for no extra charge. Nevertheless, in the end, the crop factor is clearly the issue for me. For landscape shooting, I am not sure how important the new AF system will really be, and I agree with Marc Williams and Jack Flesher and others about the relatively small increase in detail resolution between 39 and 50.

I do not agree with the comment comparing MF vs 35mm DSLR shooting being similar. To get the full advantage of the detail rendering, one needs to use a tripod (for most applications) and with IS technology, it is sometimes much easier to grab a shot with the 35mm DSLR technology.

One thing I have learned is that when working quickly with changing light sometimes I can cover more ground using a 35mm DSLR than my MF gear.

So i find there are a number of tradeoffs, which for me as an amateur may be different than the working pros. I have considered selling all my MF gear and waiting for the canon 1DsmkIV. I realize it will likely not rival the DR and overall IQ of the MF--- it may get a bit closer.
 

carstenw

Active member
In case I came across as having a bias, I use a Contax 645 with a Sinar back, so my bias between Hasselblad and Phase One is none. I simply think that with a P30 in hand, the best choice for most situations, especially for a student, is not to upgrade, maybe just perfect and put the money more directly into the career.
 

Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
I thought I made it pretty clear I don't have a bias either, other than I chose Phase for *MY* needs. In fact, I think I pointed out the H4's new focus features as one area that the DF body can't compete.

/rant
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
I have a bias towards BMW's since i just spent 35k on one last week , it better last 5 years or I will be pissed.:ROTFL::ROTFL::ROTFL::ROTFL::ROTFL::ROTFL:

Other than that when it comes to cams i owned them all or shot them all and really they are just a means to a end for me. If it had Shirley on the name plate I could care less. I'm happy with what I have right now and that is what counts as many folks are happy with there purchases.

What really makes me mad right now is my freaking DVD burner is NOT working and i need to deliver DVD's monday. Might just be Toast as in the software
 
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