Contax 645 + Phase One P45+ still viable mf system?

[routlaw]

Hey Rob, anyway I can get my hands on some of the raw files from your Leaf Aptus II-5?
Woud love to see one.
My other thought was to go tech view camera so I still have access to shift and tilt was looking at a used silvestri bicam
Funny you mentioned about removing the AA filter from the D3x, I was considering doing that for $450.00 I know one person who did it and he said it's about 5-10% sharper. hmmm

Steven
ps. where are you demoing the leaf aptus from?

Steven, be glad to. In fact when I am done with my demo had planned on posting a few images, and will probably upload a couple of hi res to my server, then send a link... if it does not get to overloaded.

Thus far most of what I have done with the camera is fairly pedestrian. And unfortunately its snowing again right now which might dampen my chances to get out do some decent landscape work. Hang on a few days. I have to send the kit back on Monday.

Regarding your comments about tech cameras, my attitude exactly. At this point I seriously doubt I would do the Phase/Mamiya cam kit though it is a fairly good value if you can accept the camera for what it is.

I am working with Optechs Digital in Seattle currently with this demo. Paul Slotboom has been excellent to deal with so far. I would also recommend the folks at Capture Integration too, as so many on this forum have expressed.

I would tend to recommend against that. I'm not sure if the AA is the same as the Sony or just the sensor, but I get some mild moire with sony on pinstripe fabrics. The Leica DMR doesn't have an AA and I never had moire issues there.

Just FYI.

Bill I don't know much about the DMR but would be inclined to think this might have more to do with a smaller pixel pitch of the Lecia DMR than the AA filter.

Rob,

I have considered the Aptus II 5 as well, but have not got a demo yet. Did you check ISO 100, 200, 400 as well ? Did you try to use live view?

Would you like to tell a little more about it?

I have done some pedestrian studio work at ISO 50 & 100 but not 200 or 400. ISO 50 is really pretty clean, however with very dark items on ISO 100 noise does start to creep up a bit. For instance I laid out my Nikon D3, the PC 85 lens, passport card and my Zone VI with polished brass/gold hardware for a simple table top shot which would obviously require a huge amount of dynamic range. Due to the DOF needed I stopped down to F20-22 and while everything was held in check value wise, not an easy feat, the black lens cap area (somewhat shaded by the 85 pc lens) on the D3 was showing a bit of noise but nothing I would have balked on. ISO 200 in this case might be pushing it. Hard to say for sure. Understand I could probably count on one hand, two max the number of times in the last 25 or so years I have used ISO 400 either digital or film. In fact I would prefer if Nikon had some ISO 50 cameras.

I would like to reiterate this back is capable of outstanding image quality at 25 and 50, truly impressed! :thumbs: Might one complaint thus far about the back itself, its poorly aligned. By that I mean compared to the viewfinder the sensor itself is titled a few degrees clockwise and shifted a few mm to the right. A bit frustrating when trying to do something with any precision, ie Architecture, and interiors or copy work. Looking at the sensor with the back removed you can visibly see this misalignment too. I also don't care for the cooling system, seems to be fan driven. :thumbdown: ok two complaints.

Rob

 

[thomas]

Might one complaint thus far about the back itself, its poorly aligned. By that I mean compared to the viewfinder the sensor itself is titled a few degrees clockwise and shifted a few mm to the right. A bit frustrating when trying to do something with any precision, ie Architecture, and interiors or copy work. Looking at the sensor with the back removed you can visibly see this misalignment too.

You should check if it's really the sensor or the finder (if you can really see it with your eyes looking at the sensor the misalignment must be huge). If it is the back I'd send it to service.
My P45 (refurb) was misaligned as well (tilted, swinged, rotated) - since recalibration it is perfectly aligned. But back then that was within warranty time and of course I didn't have to pay anything.

 

[kuau]

Rob,
Thanks for all the information on the Leaf, Does it have some kind of "Live View" mode on it? Can you actually do critical focus on the back of the back if you were using like a hoodman magnifier?
How do you think this back compares to the P25+??

Steven

 

[kuau]

Jack,
A little off topic
are the SCHNEIDER APO Digitar XL 35,47, and 72mm lenses any good for use with a P25+ DB with some shift?

Steven

 

[T.Karma]

Rob,

Thank you for taking the time to comment.

 

[routlaw]

You should check if it's really the sensor or the finder (if you can really see it with your eyes looking at the sensor the misalignment must be huge). If it is the back I'd send it to service.

Yeah its definitely the back, like I said this is easily visible upon removing the back from the camera. But it is just a demo, not one I own. I will report this to the vendor though.

Rob,
Thanks for all the information on the Leaf, Does it have some kind of "Live View" mode on it? Can you actually do critical focus on the back of the back if you were using like a hoodman magnifier?
How do you think this back compares to the P25+??

Steven

I am not a big user of live view for a couple of reasons, even though it is there on my D3, the only time I have used it was for the novelty more than its usefulness. To my way of thinking the way live view works is to take many low res multi shots of the scene, which builds up heat, the last thing you want with a CCD sensor. So with this in mind if one were using it extensively to dial in a capture by the time you actually got around to taking the real picture it would seem noise would have built up excessively. Perhaps some other MF users who have had more experience with this than I could extrapolate on this issue. That said I have found manual focus to be very predictable on the setup with double the size viewfinder, and if you have enough light auto focus is not that bad. However, unlike the D3/x one has no idea where the focus points are within the viewfinder, as in they don't light up. For that matter for all I know there is only one FP. Auto focus on this camera is nothing like the sophisticated system Nikon or Canon have, not even remotely close.

Nothing that I am aware of compares with the ergonomics of the pro Nikon cameras, ie live view, lcd monitor, various button controls etc. While the monitor on the Leaf is really quite large (6x7) and useful, make no mistake it is NOT the thing of beauty that the D3 & x have. The time or two I zoomed into an image to check focus left a lot to be desired by comparison, not only for its image quality but also the clumsy and slow method of moving around the image. Hardly worth the effort. OK now I got 3 complaints about the back. But FWIW, honestly I don't even use this function but rarely on my D3.

Regarding the P25+ vs the Leaf, hard to say since I have not worked directly with the P25+ other than downloading some files provided at different places around the internet. However, and this is a somewhat unfair call due to my previous statement from what I have seen so far the Leaf-22 seems better in every way with the one exception of extremely long exposures. Others have stated the different and better look of the Dalsa sensor, and with my limited experience would concur wholeheartedly. As initially stated image quality is soooo smooth, yet very detailed and done so in a very natural non digital sort of way.

Bottom line is you buy one of these critters not for its ergonomics because they all take a back seat to what you are used to, but rather its image quality.

Hope this helps.

Rob

 

[thomas]

are the SCHNEIDER APO Digitar XL 35,47, and 72mm lenses any good for use with a P25+ DB with some shift?

excellent!

 

[Jack]

Jack,
A little off topic
are the SCHNEIDER APO Digitar XL 35,47, and 72mm lenses any good for use with a P25+ DB with some shift?

Steven

I have not used the 47 or 72 personally, but by all accounts they are equal to the 35 which I have used and that one is very good. I would give the HR Digirons a very slight nudge over the Schneider for pure resolution on a 6 micron sensor, but I doubt you'll see any difference on a 9 micron senor and probably not even see it on a 6.8 sensor. Moreover, I tend to prefer the rendering of the Schneider's as they tend to be just a bit smoother. So it's choose your poison: tad better resolution, and a tad harsh rendering (Rodie HR APO), or a tad less resolution and a tad smoother rendering (Schneider APO) -- but we're talking very subtle differences here. Image circle then comes into play too, as do net range of focal lengths... To my mind, a 35, 47 and 72 on a FF MF sensor would be pretty close to an ideal trio.

,

 

[kuau]

Rob,
you rock thanks for all your help.
I guess I need to decide now on whether to go MF SLR like a Contax or go tech view camera, On my D3x, I use shift all the time for composition as opposed to tilting the camera up or down, and sometimes use tilt for DOF. If I go MF SLR like the contax then I pretty much loose shift all together, unless I buy a used Hartblie 47mm lens.
I assume I would "have" to buy a arca cube then also or..
go tech view

Can't decide which way to go
I guess I should do some more test shots with my D3x and compare doing shifts as opposed to just tilting the camera up and down for composition

I attached a shot I took while in Hawaii with my D3x and 85mm PCE lens probably with 3-4mm of shift

Steven

 

[kuau]

Thanks for all the info Jack,
Those 3 Schneider lenses are part of the kit that I am looking at also if I decide to go tech view over a MF SLR body.


Steven

 

[routlaw]

...I would give the HR Digirons a very slight nudge over the Schneider for pure resolution on a 6 micron sensor, but I doubt you'll see any difference on a 9 micron senor and probably not even see it on a 6.8 sensor. Moreover, I tend to prefer the rendering of the Schneider's as they tend to be just a bit smoother. So it's choose your poison: tad better resolution, and a tad harsh rendering (Rodie HR APO), or a tad less resolution and a tad smoother rendering (Schneider APO) -- but we're talking very subtle differences here. Image circle then comes into play too, ...

Interesting comments on the difference between the two lens companies Jack. And based upon my experience using the D3 (also 9 micron sensor) combined with the Cambo Ultima LF view camera its quite feasible to use regular 4x5 lenses rather than the more expensive digital counterparts whose image circle is reduced substantially. Awhile back I set up the above system comparing my Rody 105 digital to the 90/6.8, Super Symmar 120 APO, and of course the Rody 135 Sironar S. With the D3 the Rody 105 digital was only marginally better than my 120 or 90 mm and a close call with the 135 Sironar S. Nothing to get excited about in any of the comparisons.

So taking a back such as the Leaf II-5 on a tech camera and given the huge amount of stitching capabilities (if you are so inclined) with 4x5 lenses more than offsets what minor differences there are with the digital lens on a 9 micron sensor. Add to that the digital lenses are optimized for only F8-F11 where as the 4x5 lenses are optimized (lens dependent) anywhere from F11-F22 and a tech camera or view camera system like this for landscape work among other things starts looking very compelling.

Rob,
you rock thanks for all your help.
I guess I need to decide now on whether to go MF SLR like a Contax or go tech view camera, On my D3x, I use shift all the time for composition as opposed to tilting the camera up or down, and sometimes use tilt for DOF. If I go MF SLR like the contax then I pretty much loose shift all together, unless I buy a used Hartblie 47mm lens.
I assume I would "have" to buy a arca cube then also or..
go tech view

Can't decide which way to go
I guess I should do some more test shots with my D3x and compare doing shifts as opposed to just tilting the camera up and down for composition

I attached a shot I took while in Hawaii with my D3x and 85mm PCE lens probably with 3-4mm of shift

Steven

Nice photograph Steven, makes me jealous, just spent the morning shoveling snow again. Hawaii is sounding pretty good right now.

Are you aware that you can rearrange the shift/tilt setup on these lenses. Have not done it myself but have heard of many others doing this with great success. Might solve some of your decisions.

I don't have the 45 PC-E lens but do use the 85 and 24 PC constantly, in fact on my trip to Zion in Nov those were the only two lenses I used, often stitching files together with the front shift capabilities, works great even though stitching is not my preferred method of visualizing a scene.

For sure if you end up going (either in the short term or long term) with just a basic MF camera like the Contax, Hassy, or Mamiya you will eventually have to focus blend to get your DOF on landscape work.

Rob

 

[kuau]

Rob,

I actually sent my 24mm PC-E into Nikon 5 months ago for the modification and I just sent in my 45 and 85mm PC-E lens for the modification also. So all 3 of my PCE's will operate the same way.

I think if I do decide to go MF I will go with a tech view that has both **** and tilt. Not into doing focus blending in PP. I already spend to much time as is to get something looking half decent.

Yeah Hawaii was nice for 4 months. Just got back to Arizona the other day.
I have tons of photos I need to go through from Hawaii now. Lots of fun

Steven

 

[carstenw]

I think if I do decide to go MF I will go with a tech view that has both **** and tilt.

I am guessing you forgot an 'f' there

 

[kuau]

opps sorry about that

 

[gogopix]

You can do both. I've had the 25 45 and 65 Phase backs and used with both Contax 645 and Alpa TC with Contax mount.
use the 35mm and 47mm SK lenses and they are spectacular!
I do not find I need lens correction either. (but its there if you really need it) The P65+ is esp good in not needing, and the P25 was easy to fix.

Victor

 

[thomas]

kuau:

Two additional points:
- do not confuse "live view" (as you know it from your Nikon) with "live preview" of digital backs (which is working tethered only). Forget about checking focus on the LCD of a digital back (except, maybe, the latest Sinar back,I don't know ... which won't work with movements anyway).
- if you want a replacement for your Nikon & TS lenses kit and that style of work you would look for a tech camera providing movements, not for one without

 

[kuau]

After doing some serious soul searching, as much as I would like to go tech view, at the end of the day knowing my own ADD I don't have the patience to shoot Tech view.
I like to move around a lot get different angles with a tech camera this would never work.
So now I am back to MF SLR either Contax 645, Hasselblad h1/h2 with either a P25+ back or the new leaf aptus II 5 back, or I see the prices keep dropping in the H3d -II 39
any opinions on the H3DII 39 and then I guess I would eventually get the HTS 1.5 t/s adaptor

oh yeah last option keep with what I got

Steven

 

[Steve Hendrix]

After doing some serious soul searching, as much as I would like to go tech view, at the end of the day knowing my own ADD I don't have the patience to shoot Tech view.
I like to move around a lot get different angles with a tech camera this would never work.
So now I am back to MF SLR either Contax 645, Hasselblad h1/h2 with either a P25+ back or the new leaf aptus II 5 back, or I see the prices keep dropping in the H3d -II 39
any opinions on the H3DII 39 and then I guess I would eventually get the HTS 1.5 t/s adaptor

oh yeah last option keep with what I got

Steven

Steven:

While I am glad that the newest Phase One camera doesn't have to take a backseat to the Hasselblad H any longer in terms of auto focus and all around performance, it should be noted that you can use the HTS 1.5 T/S adapter with any Phase One digital back on a Hasselblad H2 camera, which can be found very reasonably on the 2nd hand market, even though it is discontinued.


Steve Hendrix

 

[kuau]

Steve,
Thanks for all your input.
What about an H1 with a P25+ back? I think the only problem is if I go h1/h2 this locks me out of using the 28mm HC lens which seems to be the "must have" lens
or am I incorrect?

Steven

 

[Guy Mancuso]

HD-2F I think can handle the 28mm. There is a used P25+ on the forum. It was actually my original back. Not sure it still is for sale though