Entrly Level Digital MF - The $5k Challenge

[R Shaffer]

Hi guys,

I've been reading/researching up a storm on Digital MF systems. Lots of great info here without much of the bias that seems prevalent on other sites.

So I would like to get into a digital MF system, BUT I have a pretty tight budget for this. I mostly shoot landscapes and some portraits, all amateur. I have been shooting a Mamiya M645 Pro for the last year and just love it. So I was able to get a used 645 AFDII from Adorama for $1300.

So for the back I have around $4k +/- to spend. I could get a new ZDb ( $3700 @ B&H) or haunt the auctions for the next several weeks looking for a P21, Leaf 17 or maybe get really lucky with a P25. I am really concerned about the lack of warranty and potentially having a $4k paper weight. Most of the legit phase & leaf dealers seem to sell the lower end used & refurb stuff starting around 6k.

So my question would be should I chance the big auction site?
If it works when I get it..... should it continue to work? :ROTFL:

The ZDb, while not quite the equal of some of the others, sure works for my budget and sounds quite capable if used within its limits.

Any Advise yee sages of the 9micron pixel

 

[Jack]

Hello, and welcome to the site!

ANY of the backs you mentioned would be great choices. The P25 and the ZDb have the benefit of being fuller-frame if that's important. From an image quality standpoint, the P25 and ZDb are going to almost equal, and the ZDb may have a few of the more modern features. IMO, it's pretty hard to go wrong with a new ZDb with warranty for $3700.

 

[R Shaffer]

Thanks Jack,

Less crop factor is better, I have a 45mm f2.8 lens I would like to keep using ( as a wide angle ), provided the CA is not too bad. Old lens, not the best coating.

Makes me feel better about the ZDb.

 

[ajoyroy]

There is a Hasselblad CFH-22 on sale at LL. "http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=41220". It is a H mount system, but getting a Mamiya mount should not be a problem.

 

[fotografz]

There is a Hasselblad CFH-22 on sale at LL. "http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=41220". It is a H mount system, but getting a Mamiya mount should not be a problem.

Actually it is a problem ... the CFH backs are fixed H mounts and cannot be changed. CFH backs are not the same as CF or CF-II backs which use the Hasselblad iAdapter system enabling use of one back on multiple camera platforms.

This CFH back would work on the H2F I have for sale in the F/S section here, and unlike a H1 or H2 provide use of the HCD lenses with DAC corrections in Phocus software.

-Marc

 

[Anders_HK]

Hi guys,

I've been reading/researching up a storm on Digital MF systems. Lots of great info here without much of the bias that seems prevalent on other sites.

So I would like to get into a digital MF system, BUT I have a pretty tight budget for this. I mostly shoot landscapes and some portraits, all amateur. I have been shooting a Mamiya M645 Pro for the last year and just love it. So I was able to get a used 645 AFDII from Adorama for $1300.

So for the back I have around $4k +/- to spend. I could get a new ZDb ( $3700 @ B&H) or haunt the auctions for the next several weeks looking for a P21, Leaf 17 or maybe get really lucky with a P25. I am really concerned about the lack of warranty and potentially having a $4k paper weight. Most of the legit phase & leaf dealers seem to sell the lower end used & refurb stuff starting around 6k.

So my question would be should I chance the big auction site?
If it works when I get it..... should it continue to work? :ROTFL:

The ZDb, while not quite the equal of some of the others, sure works for my budget and sounds quite capable if used within its limits.

Any Advise yee sages of the 9micron pixel

Hi,

Having had ZD and problems with ZD, I have had Leaf Aptus 65 for two years and am indeed very pleased with it. I would advise going with a Leaf or Phase One and complete forget ZD. Please read through forums and you will see many have sold ZDs because problems, while Phase One and Leaf Aptus are very durable.

Do consider the P25 and Aptus 22, but also the P30 and Aptus 65 which may actually be cheaper due to their slight more crops of 645. Think about it, also P25 and Aptus 22 are crops of 645. The difference between 48mmx36mm and 44mmx33mm sensor sizes is small. On the other hand, the big advantage is that P30 and Aptus 65 are newer technology sensors, and at least when I bought mine two years ago the Aptus 65 was cheaper for me new than a used Aptus 22! I would recommend the Aptus 65 over P30 since it is newer than the P30, unless you can catch a P30+ which is equal new. These are capable of slight higher ISO due noise than the P25 and Aptus 22, I think that is main difference.

I also recommend that you test the digital back before you buy it, or buy it on a return policy. You need make sure that the sensor is in sound condition, the sensor is by far the most expensive part on the digital back. I was told by Leaf that changing all else would cost 1-2000 usd only...

I hope above helps,

Regards
Anders

 

[Jack]

The OP did list a $5K budget... I had a ZD back and it worked fine at ISO 50 and 100, though a bit noisy after that and I think that's been improved in the ZDb. IIRC, the biggest issues with ZD's were folks with the ZD unit CAMERA, not the ZD backs with latest firmware.

 

[R Shaffer]

Actually it is a problem ... the CFH backs are fixed H mounts and cannot be changed. CFH backs are not the same as CF or CF-II backs which use the Hasselblad iAdapter system enabling use of one back on multiple camera platforms.

This CFH back would work on the H2F I have for sale in the F/S section here, and unlike a H1 or H2 provide use of the HCD lenses with DAC corrections in Phocus software.

-Marc

I considered long and hard on going with one of the H cameras and was leaning that way for a time. In the end I just could not quite get the system to work within my limited budget. Especially if I had to replace my current lenses

 

[R Shaffer]

Hi,

Having had ZD and problems with ZD, I have had Leaf Aptus 65 for two years and am indeed very pleased with it. I would advise going with a Leaf or Phase One and complete forget ZD. Please read through forums and you will see many have sold ZDs because problems, while Phase One and Leaf Aptus are very durable.

Do consider the P25 and Aptus 22, but also the P30 and Aptus 65 which may actually be cheaper due to their slight more crops of 645. Think about it, also P25 and Aptus 22 are crops of 645. The difference between 48mmx36mm and 44mmx33mm sensor sizes is small. On the other hand, the big advantage is that P30 and Aptus 65 are newer technology sensors, and at least when I bought mine two years ago the Aptus 65 was cheaper for me new than a used Aptus 22! I would recommend the Aptus 65 over P30 since it is newer than the P30, unless you can catch a P30+ which is equal new. These are capable of slight higher ISO due noise than the P25 and Aptus 22, I think that is main difference.

I also recommend that you test the digital back before you buy it, or buy it on a return policy. You need make sure that the sensor is in sound condition, the sensor is by far the most expensive part on the digital back. I was told by Leaf that changing all else would cost 1-2000 usd only...

I hope above helps,

Regards
Anders

Thanks Anders

I totally agree the P25 & P30 would be great choices. The issue then really becomes the risk of buying a used back. I did check as many reputable used outlets as I could find on the net. And the starting prices for these were above my budget, so my only option would be the big auction site.

I am just concerned that I would not have nay recourse if there was a problem or get stuck with a big repair bill.

 

[R Shaffer]

The OP did list a $5K budget... I had a ZD back and it worked fine at ISO 50 and 100, though a bit noisy after that and I think that's been improved in the ZDb. IIRC, the biggest issues with ZD's were folks with the ZD unit CAMERA, not the ZD backs with latest firmware.

I have been shooting Delta 100 ( at EI 80 ) and Velvia 50 almost exclusively for the past year with my 645 Pro. So my expectation with the ZDb back is that as long as I keep the ISO on the lower side, the noise would tolerable.

With my D200 I do all my B&W conversions with Silver Efex Pro and I usually prefer adding grain to the digital image. It seems to soften the tonal transitions, so I think I could even hide some noise with a bit of grain.

 

[carstenw]

The OP did list a $5K budget... I had a ZD back and it worked fine at ISO 50 and 100, though a bit noisy after that and I think that's been improved in the ZDb. IIRC, the biggest issues with ZD's were folks with the ZD unit CAMERA, not the ZD backs with latest firmware.

Hmm, I remember it exactly the other way round. Here are some links to various articles and threads on LL:

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/zd-review.shtml

An interesting 2007 thread where someone mentions having had lockups, noise, and worms with his early ZD back. There is other talk about purple blobs, also ZD back.

http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=20472

Green tint problem:

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/lofiversion/index.php/t26355.html

And so on. Paste this into Google and get a bunch of links. Somewhere there was a thread about problems with the ZD from 2009, but I didn't see it on a first glance.

site:luminous-landscape.com Mamiya ZD problem

 

[Paratom]

I dont know the ZDb but have used the ZD integrated camera/back for a few months before going Hy6 and Sinar. IMO The ZD did very fine at ISO 50 an 100 and still good at ISO 160-200.
If you can get a used Phase back with guarantee/service - fine.
If not I would rather get the a new ZDb than a ebay P25 or P21. (as long as you are fine with ISO 160.
Also keep in mind the shallower DOF of Medium format compared to smaller sensors.

 

[Jack]

I dont know the ZDb but have used the ZD integrated camera/back for a few months before going Hy6 and Sinar. IMO The ZD did very fine at ISO 50 an 100 and still good at ISO 160-200.
If you can get a used Phase back with guarantee/service - fine.
If not I would rather get the a new ZDb than a ebay P25 or P21. (as long as you are fine with ISO 160.
Also keep in mind the shallower DOF of Medium format compared to smaller sensors.

Exactly . Guy had one, I had one and they all worked just fine. In fact the person I sold mine to is still using it happily.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

I had one . They are slow compared to the Phase and Hassy backs and limited to ISO 200 max but the files rock . Limit on long exposure is 20-30 seconds which this one is 15 seconds. The LCD is okay nothing special BUT for what it is it works fine as long as you know the limitations of it and can deal with it. I moved up to a P25+ from here and certainly a much faster cam but I have need to go faster. But I never had any issues with the back itself. Most of the issues heard was in the form of the integrated back body. I have read purple once on the back itself but it was a defective unit

 

[Guy Mancuso]

ISO 50 13 seconds F22 with a 35mm Mamiya lens. Not to shabby. I have a whole thread on the ZD back. Do a search

I had mine April 2008 time frame

 

[R Shaffer]

Hmm, I remember it exactly the other way round. Here are some links to various articles and threads on LL:

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/zd-review.shtml

An interesting 2007 thread where someone mentions having had lockups, noise, and worms with his early ZD back. There is other talk about purple blobs, also ZD back.

http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=20472

Green tint problem:

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/lofiversion/index.php/t26355.html

And so on. Paste this into Google and get a bunch of links. Somewhere there was a thread about problems with the ZD from 2009, but I didn't see it on a first glance.

site:luminous-landscape.com Mamiya ZD problem

Thanks for the links, I had already seen the first two.

The third link gives a whole new meaning to 'going green'

Reading here and other sites it seems that the later RAW editors solved the green tint problem.

 

[R Shaffer]

I dont know the ZDb but have used the ZD integrated camera/back for a few months before going Hy6 and Sinar. IMO The ZD did very fine at ISO 50 an 100 and still good at ISO 160-200.
If you can get a used Phase back with guarantee/service - fine.
If not I would rather get the a new ZDb than a ebay P25 or P21. (as long as you are fine with ISO 160.
Also keep in mind the shallower DOF of Medium format compared to smaller sensors.

This is pretty much right in line with my thinking, thanks

 

[R Shaffer]

I had one . They are slow compared to the Phase and Hassy backs and limited to ISO 200 max but the files rock . Limit on long exposure is 20-30 seconds which this one is 15 seconds. The LCD is okay nothing special BUT for what it is it works fine as long as you know the limitations of it and can deal with it. I moved up to a P25+ from here and certainly a much faster cam but I have need to go faster. But I never had any issues with the back itself. Most of the issues heard was in the form of the integrated back body. I have read purple once on the back itself but it was a defective unit

Slow is OK by me, two or three frames is the most I ever shoot off. The 30s max usable exposure would probably be where I would occasionally have issues. But I'll have a film back to handle those conditions.

The images look great.....

Thanks

 

[Jan Brittenson]

They are slow compared to the Phase and Hassy backs and limited to ISO 200 max but the files rock [...] The LCD is okay nothing special BUT for what it is it works fine as long as you know the limitations of it and can deal with it.

Like Guy says, fantastic files, slow to use, "only" 22MP. But they're very high quality, fat pixels. Good dynamic range, certainly better than any 35mm DSLR I've used. Curiously, the only thing that bugs me is the small LCD; as I'm getting older I find it hard to read without glasses. That's the main reason I'd like a bigger screen (or a bigger font and bigger histogram even if still on the small screen). The screen isn't very accurate and clips long before the camera, so will tend to make shots look blown when the brightness is turned up for outdoor use. But I can live with that, certainly nothing I'd throw thousands of dollars at to fix.

If you're coming from 645 film and 35mm digital, prints off the ZD are going to blow you away. Completely different league entirely.

 

[Jan Brittenson]

But I'll have a film back to handle those conditions.

I have a film back I keep loaded with Tmax-100. They're nice motorized backs (motor in body) with digital frame counters and ISO settings. I've been intending to get a second film back for Ektar 25. However, I should warn you that swapping backs between digital and film out in the sticks isn't all it's cracked up to be as it REALLY invites dust. Better to do that indoors, or at least in a car...