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Hasselblad H3D 50 II Multishot Versus Phase One P65+ / 645AF

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etrump

Well-known member
Mark Dubovoy is an incredible photographer and I have found his articles to be very informative. I was surprised by this article, I expected the multi-shot version of the hasselblad to perform much better. If you were shooting high end product photography maybe this would be a good choice over a P65+ but on most other things I don't see a real advantage to the multi-shot.
 

ptomsu

Workshop Member
Well, I must say I usually nail down the exposure pretty right with my H3D39 without any adjustments, so I do not know which problems he had with the Hasselblads (H2 and H3D50)?

I also find the colors from the Hasselblad (at least the 39MP back) in combination with Phocus 2.0 outstanding - was much harder to get these colors with the Phase backs I used. The 50MP back from Hasselblad is said to have even better colors - I do not have any experiences here, but that he finds Hasselblad colors bad just tells something.

Given these facts I find such reviews and tests just a waste of time. Obviously something must have gone wrong :confused:
 

Henry Goh

Member
I find that one cannot judge color accurately unless one is comparing the 2 files side-by-side. I believe Mark did just that. In that respect, I tend to believe him.
 

PeterA

Well-known member
I read the article it had a lto of words in it - but I finished reading it because I had a spare 10 minutes..

all these words can be summarized as - Phase One is so much better in every respect to Hasselblad..

thanks for the link it was very funny reading - almost as much fun as checking out the LL owners photography - made me laugh even harder.
 

ptomsu

Workshop Member
I read the article it had a lto of words in it - but I finished reading it because I had a spare 10 minutes..

all these words can be summarized as - Phase One is so much better in every respect to Hasselblad..

thanks for the link it was very funny reading - almost as much fun as checking out the LL owners photography - made me laugh even harder.
Peter

exactly, this is the final point of what is called a review: Phase is MUCH better in all respects than Hasselblad.

Should I feel now really bad because I bought into that bloody bad Hasselblad system instead of Phase? Should I cry or laugh :deadhorse:

Feel more like cannot stop laughing as well :D

PS: this hardens my experiences and opinion about Luminous Landscape - maybe they should call themselves Curious Landscape - just a suggestion ...
 

Professional

Active member
Peter

exactly, this is the final point of what is called a review: Phase is MUCH better in all respects than Hasselblad.

Should I feel now really bad because I bought into that bloody bad Hasselblad system instead of Phase? Should I cry or laugh :deadhorse:

Feel more like cannot stop laughing as well :D

PS: this hardens my experiences and opinion about Luminous Landscape - maybe they should call themselves Curious Landscape - just a suggestion ...
Honestly i don't like to be in LL because i feel about 90% or so are with Phase One system, i feel like i did a big mistake to go with Hasselblad then, even it is funny many maybe using Phase One digital back on Hasselblad body, but what makes me happy is many people here or around the world know the word Hasselblad and they don't know what is Phase One, and i am happy with Hasselblad even i dream or feel i want Phase One.

I hate to read those reviews because it is almost personal more than a fact or scientific view, so i don't care what is the conclusion if that person did that test himself, i can use Hasselblad or Phase One for what they are made for and i will never do a test review to say that one system is way better over the another, sure someone else will do a test and will say that Hasselblad is winner over Phase One, so what is the point of all that, to watch and laugh?!!!
 

Professional

Active member
And good here on GetDPI there are Hasselblad owners, i will feel depressed is more than 70% here go with Phase One and then down the Hasselblad, ofcourse if i have a choice i can go with Phase One, but i don't like the point that Phase One is top over that Hasselblad, even if it is true that will not make Phase One getting 95% and Hasselblad 70%, also it is so proud that Hasselbald won TIPA more than Once over that Phase One.
 

carstenw

Active member
The review is riddled with problems.

To start with, Marc starts as an owner of the one system, and so at a subconscious level the Phase will to him have an advantage, and he will be able to get more out of it. At a conscious level one can discount such factors, but muscle memory, for example, will always favour the camera he owns.

In the studio, he chose a lighting scenario which wipes out one huge advantage of the Hasselblad: the high sync speed of all lenses.

The metering I cannot comment on, but it sounds highly unlikely to me that the Hasselblad meters that badly for everyone out there. I don't know what was wrong in the setup he tested. It should perhaps be mentioned here that when people actually buy a system, they may go through extensive hoop jumping to get a good copy of everything, like the 3 lenses that some buy, only to keep the best and send the other 2 back. When you test such a system against an off-the-shelf competitor, there is an inherent imbalance. Joseph Holmes had one Phase back which was 170 microns off! Imagine the test results if that was what Marc had used.

He cautions that one should not confuse resolution with sharpness, and then he shows a newspaper and confuses resolution with sharpness! If he wants to test resolution, he should use a resolution test target. Adding a little sharpening and contrast to the Hasselblad image would vastly improve its appearance compared to the Phase shot, but I don't see the Phase out-resolving the Hasselblad in this shot. Finally, using a normal lens very close up is more likely to show up differences in the lens. He should use a macro lens close up or a normal lens at normal distances. In the later MS vs. P65+ comparison he observes how blotchy the Phase suddenly renders the dots in the print, but fails to make a comparison to the first image where the Hasselblad was blotchy, and he also fails to condemn the Phase for the blotchiness in the same way he condemned the H3DII-50MS for blotchiness.

I think that what he is dealing with is designing tests where the interaction of the subject at the pixel-level is skewing the results. On fredmiranda.com there was one guy who tested a Canon 5D against a Leica M8 for resolution, and his test was done in such a way that the Canon could just barely resolve some text at a distance, but the Leica, having 10MP vs. 12.7MP, failed spectacularly on this target. This kind of test is only relevant at that exact distance. A little further, and both would fail to render the text. A little closer and both would render the text. The same might be happening here. A little larger, and neither would have blotches. A little smaller, and both might have blotches (like would certainly have been the case if he had shot the Hasselblad in single-shot mode in the second test). In the first test, he found the exact distance where the Hasselblad's slight deficiency in pixels led to blotchiness but where the Phase was still okay, condemned the Hasselblad and stopped using it in single-shot mode. Horrible reporting. He really needs to try all modes all the way and not remove one mode from the equation for a poor result on one test.

His Velvia++ comments are also suspect, and he fails to document it. The one example he shows (the lawn and trees), the colours start fairly close, and some parts look better on the Hasselblad shot, others on the Phase shot. He then goes on to trounce the Hasselblad...

His comment on the dynamic range of current 35mm DSLRs being 7 stops is truly bizarre. I am not sure if any pro-level DSLR has ever had that little dynamic range, but the current kings of DR are the P65+ and the D3x. He really needs to back off there or back up his statement. The statement about 12-14bits vs. 16 bits is also blinkered, given that the 16 bits of MF is often theory only, let down by the ADC. See comments by the author of one RAW package on LL.

He also fails to mention what a fantastic deal it is for the H4D-50MS to be several thousand cheaper than a P65+ single-shot.

Marc Dubovoy is perhaps well respected, but ultimately, I think he falls into the same old trap: he exaggerates small differences in the results, and fails to account for some pretty significant differences in the starting point. On top of this, he seems to misinterpret some test results, leading to wrong conclusions.

---

Ultimately we all want to own the best that we can afford, but it should not be forgotten that any of these systems, whether from Hasselblad, Phase, Sinar or Leaf, can be used to get fantastic results. The difference between 22MP and 60MP is sometimes important, but more often, it makes little difference, single-shot or multi-shot. Only in specific, limited scenarios do these differences start to become important. We should also not forget that for every person who likes the handling of a camera, there is someone else who cannot stand it.

To be honest, these cameras/backs are almost all so good that comparison testing makes little sense to report on. We really need to test individually, for our own needs, for our own preferences. Marc's review does a huge disservice to Hasselblad and their loyal customers, and I don't say that as a Hasselblad fan, as most people around here are fully aware.
 
P

Photon

Guest
Excellent comment, Carsten.

Furthermore one should take as much time to evaluate the system(s) of his choice as he did when deciding on his wife (although that took me a split second).:ROTFL:

Warmest,

Ton

http://www.tonvanmourik.com/
 

Professional

Active member
The review is riddled with problems.

To start with, Marc starts as an owner of the one system, and so at a subconscious level the Phase will to him have an advantage, and he will be able to get more out of it. At a conscious level one can discount such factors, but muscle memory, for example, will always favour the camera he owns.

In the studio, he chose a lighting scenario which wipes out one huge advantage of the Hasselblad: the high sync speed of all lenses.

The metering I cannot comment on, but it sounds highly unlikely to me that the Hasselblad meters that badly for everyone out there. I don't know what was wrong in the setup he tested. It should perhaps be mentioned here that when people actually buy a system, they may go through extensive hoop jumping to get a good copy of everything, like the 3 lenses that some buy, only to keep the best and send the other 2 back. When you test such a system against an off-the-shelf competitor, there is an inherent imbalance. Joseph Holmes had one Phase back which was 170 microns off! Imagine the test results if that was what Marc had used.

He cautions that one should not confuse resolution with sharpness, and then he shows a newspaper and confuses resolution with sharpness! If he wants to test resolution, he should use a resolution test target. Adding a little sharpening and contrast to the Hasselblad image would vastly improve its appearance compared to the Phase shot, but I don't see the Phase out-resolving the Hasselblad in this shot. Finally, using a normal lens very close up is more likely to show up differences in the lens. He should use a macro lens close up or a normal lens at normal distances. In the later MS vs. P65+ comparison he observes how blotchy the Phase suddenly renders the dots in the print, but fails to make a comparison to the first image where the Hasselblad was blotchy, and he also fails to condemn the Phase for the blotchiness in the same way he condemned the H3DII-50MS for blotchiness.

I think that what he is dealing with is designing tests where the interaction of the subject at the pixel-level is skewing the results. On fredmiranda.com there was one guy who tested a Canon 5D against a Leica M8 for resolution, and his test was done in such a way that the Canon could just barely resolve some text at a distance, but the Leica, having 10MP vs. 12.7MP, failed spectacularly on this target. This kind of test is only relevant at that exact distance. A little further, and both would fail to render the text. A little closer and both would render the text. The same might be happening here. A little larger, and neither would have blotches. A little smaller, and both might have blotches (like would certainly have been the case if he had shot the Hasselblad in single-shot mode in the second test). In the first test, he found the exact distance where the Hasselblad's slight deficiency in pixels led to blotchiness but where the Phase was still okay, condemned the Hasselblad and stopped using it in single-shot mode. Horrible reporting. He really needs to try all modes all the way and not remove one mode from the equation for a poor result on one test.

His Velvia++ comments are also suspect, and he fails to document it. The one example he shows (the lawn and trees), the colours start fairly close, and some parts look better on the Hasselblad shot, others on the Phase shot. He then goes on to trounce the Hasselblad...

His comment on the dynamic range of current 35mm DSLRs being 7 stops is truly bizarre. I am not sure if any pro-level DSLR has ever had that little dynamic range, but the current kings of DR are the P65+ and the D3x. He really needs to back off there or back up his statement. The statement about 12-14bits vs. 16 bits is also blinkered, given that the 16 bits of MF is often theory only, let down by the ADC. See comments by the author of one RAW package on LL.

He also fails to mention what a fantastic deal it is for the H4D-50MS to be several thousand cheaper than a P65+ single-shot.

Marc Dubovoy is perhaps well respected, but ultimately, I think he falls into the same old trap: he exaggerates small differences in the results, and fails to account for some pretty significant differences in the starting point. On top of this, he seems to misinterpret some test results, leading to wrong conclusions.

---

Ultimately we all want to own the best that we can afford, but it should not be forgotten that any of these systems, whether from Hasselblad, Phase, Sinar or Leaf, can be used to get fantastic results. The difference between 22MP and 60MP is sometimes important, but more often, it makes little difference, single-shot or multi-shot. Only in specific, limited scenarios do these differences start to become important. We should also not forget that for every person who likes the handling of a camera, there is someone else who cannot stand it.

To be honest, these cameras/backs are almost all so good that comparison testing makes little sense to report on. We really need to test individually, for our own needs, for our own preferences. Marc's review does a huge disservice to Hasselblad and their loyal customers, and I don't say that as a Hasselblad fan, as most people around here are fully aware.
Well nuf said!

Good there are people like you can read all the details about those kind of tests to respond, believe it, i really didn't know anything about that test review, the shots were like mixed, some shots are better with Hassy and the other shots are better with Phase, so i was not sure what he is trying to say or to show, it is really annoying when one System against another one can do great job and in the conclusion they knock it down it seems like they intentionally were planning to degrade[don't know another better word in English] of one system at the end anyway.

We will see who will do the test when that H4D-60 come out against P65+, at least Phase One doesn't have 50mp and also no multishot camera
 

thomas

New member
Great post, Carsten!

Reading those reviews (what a waste of time, actually…) I am always thinking: why it is not made made by two photographers - one who is experienced with the P65+ and C1 and one who is experienced with the H3D50MS and Phocus? One who is used to the ergonomics of the P1 camera and one who is used to the ergonomics of the H camera.
And both know the strengths and weaknesses of their system...
I don't think he screwed-up the test (at least not intentionally) but I'm almost sure the results would have been different if two guys would have made it together.
If I were in the market for either the H50MS or the P65+ this review wouldn't tell me anything I'd like to know…
 

ptomsu

Workshop Member
To be honest, these cameras/backs are almost all so good that comparison testing makes little sense to report on. We really need to test individually, for our own needs, for our own preferences. Marc's review does a huge disservice to Hasselblad and their loyal customers, and I don't say that as a Hasselblad fan, as most people around here are fully aware.
Carsten, agree to all what you state here!

Especially to your last sentence. I tested for myself the whole year 2009 before I decided for a System and it was almost impossible to allocate one system being clearly better than another - especially comparing Phase and Hasselblad. Maybe my test were not scientific enough and thus also not be appropriate to be published, but meanwhile I have the feeling that they were better than many tests you can read on several different sites in the Internet, especially LL.

Finally I had to make a choice and it was a combination of IQ, handling, availability, support and of course price. The one factor which made me hesitate for long time to buy into HB was that I am an experienced C1 user. But exactly this fact turned out to be a no brainer, as Phocus 2.0 is a marvellous PP SW tool and in combination with the 3F files it is hardly to beat WRT IQ (color, DR, etc etc). This is why I really doubt the test methods this guy had in place.
 
T

tokengirl

Guest
We really need to test individually, for our own needs, for our own preferences.
Exactly right.

One day I will test both Hasselblad and Phase One systems to figure out what is right for me. And guess what? I will not take any pictures of newspapers or circuit boards or color charts. I will make photos that I care about, and I will process those images like I care about them, and I will print them like it matters.

Honestly, I bet that the differences between the two systems will mostly be about how useful I find the features for the way I like to work.

Oh, and since I make pictures for primarily my own personal recreation, once I decide which system is best for me, I won't give a damn what anyone else thinks.
 

Professional

Active member
Exactly right.

One day I will test both Hasselblad and Phase One systems to figure out what is right for me. And guess what? I will not take any pictures of newspapers or circuit boards or color charts. I will make photos that I care about, and I will process those images like I care about them, and I will print them like it matters.

Honestly, I bet that the differences between the two systems will mostly be about how useful I find the features for the way I like to work.

Oh, and since I make pictures for primarily my own personal recreation, once I decide which system is best for me, I won't give a damn what anyone else thinks.
Go for what you feel comfortable with and don't look back.
By the way, i have 2 Hasselblad cameras, one id digital and one is film, to make myself in safe side as what i did in Canon line, i will buy a Phase One DB, so then i will not have a confusion which is better, i will have both and never look back ;)
 

jecxz

Active member
To start with, Marc starts as an owner of the one system, and so at a subconscious level the Phase will to him have an advantage, and he will be able to get more out of it. At a conscious level one can discount such factors, but muscle memory, for example, will always favour the camera he owns.
There is an even more important aspect to this good point:

If Marc came to the conclusion that Hasselblad was better, then his $40,000+ investment in Phase One was wrong. Many people lack the ability to stand up in public and state that they have made a mistake on a $40,000+ investment. The subconscious forces steering his review would have been invisible. Most people want to prove they do the right thing or make the right choices (it's only human). I mean no disrespect to Marc (I don't know him) in saying this, however, it's generally true.

As for metering issues: My 40,000+ exposure experience with two H2's and four H3DII39's says this is wrong.

Kind regards,
Derek Jecxz
www.jecxz.com
 
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ptomsu

Workshop Member
Exactly right.

One day I will test both Hasselblad and Phase One systems to figure out what is right for me. And guess what? I will not take any pictures of newspapers or circuit boards or color charts. I will make photos that I care about, and I will process those images like I care about them, and I will print them like it matters.

Honestly, I bet that the differences between the two systems will mostly be about how useful I find the features for the way I like to work.

Oh, and since I make pictures for primarily my own personal recreation, once I decide which system is best for me, I won't give a damn what anyone else thinks.
Did the same thing and never regret so far and also think not in the future.

And even if some facts will change how I do photography and what I need in the future, well then I might switch to a different system or buy as a second one and not look back in an angry way, because each system is right for me for the time I use it. Otherwise I would not have bought anymore.
 

thomas

New member
There is an even more important aspect to this good point:

If Marc came to the conclusion that Hasselblad was better, then his $40,000+ investment in Phase One was wrong. Many people lack the ability to stand up in public and state that they have made a mistake on a $40,000+ investment. The subconscious forces steering his review would have been invisible. Most people want to prove they do the right thing or make the right choices (it's only human). I mean no disrespect to Marc (I don't know him) in saying this, however, it's true.
this is a strange argument... to me.
If he came to the conclusion that both produce the same quality... it wouldn't be a "problem" for him. Of course, to him, the $40K still would be the "right" investment as he has several bodies/lenses/acessories for his system. And as he shoots tech/view cameras there would be another point in favor for a Phase back.
 

David K

Workshop Member
The metering I cannot comment on, but it sounds highly unlikely to me that the Hasselblad meters that badly for everyone out there.
I have no dog in this race being a Sinar shooter but the comments on how poorly the Hasselblad meters struck me as improbable at best. If this were the usual state of affairs I would expect to have read/heard about this extensively. Frankly, if I were comparing two systems and ran into this I'd think I had a faulty kit. I didn't come away from the article with the feeling that the author set out to do a hatchet job on Hassy... more that he simply doesn't know how to get the best out of that system.
 

jecxz

Active member
this is a strange argument... to me.
If he came to the conclusion that both produce the same quality... it wouldn't be a "problem" for him. Of course, to him, the $40K still would be the "right" investment as he has several bodies/lenses/acessories for his system. And as he shoots tech/view cameras there would be another point in favor for a Phase back.
Nothing strange at all in pointing out a potential subconscious bias.

Marc, to his credit, states "I firmly believe that we all have biases, and I am certainly no exception."

These systems are huge investments and one generally wants to make the "best" decision.

Kind regards,
Derek Jecxz
www.jecxz.com
 
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