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A few P30+ questions

tjv

Active member
Hey guys. I don't see many threads relating to the P30+ back in the Phase One line up. What are your collective thoughts? Is it a good, valid shooter with all the newer technology backs now out there? I like the fact it shoots from 100ISO - 1600ISO (although I use such a back primarily between 100 - 400ISO.) I don't require the use of a tech camera. The only downside I see is it is a 1.3x crop vs the lower res P25+ and higher res P45+. In terms of dollar to res and pixel quality differences, which is the best value for money Phase back at the moment for someone who doesn't need tech movements and 100 - 400ISO range shooting only? What does the Phase literature mean by saying "the P30+ has superior Moire control?" How does it achieve this and is this claim justified?

Thanks,
Tim
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Between the 3 backs mentioned it has the best ISO range bar none no question. That part is very true . This may help show that http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8090

The P30+ uses micro lenses and it will control moire better for sure over the P45+ and P25+ which is the worst for moire. But you are still going to get moire just no way around it with any back. The P30+ is a excellent general purpose back IMHO. Good ISO good speed and a very nice file to boot. It's the same crop factor as the new P40+ and something that is very easy to get used to although I would prefer the crop factor of the P25/45
 

dougpeterson

Workshop Member
Hey guys. I don't see many threads relating to the P30+ back in the Phase One line up. What are your collective thoughts? Is it a good, valid shooter with all the newer technology backs now out there? I like the fact it shoots from 100ISO - 1600ISO (although I use such a back primarily between 100 - 400ISO.) I don't require the use of a tech camera. The only downside I see is it is a 1.3x crop vs the lower res P25+ and higher res P45+. In terms of dollar to res and pixel quality differences, which is the best value for money Phase back at the moment for someone who doesn't need tech movements and 100 - 400ISO range shooting only? What does the Phase literature mean by saying "the P30+ has superior Moire control?" How does it achieve this and is this claim justified?
The 30+ is still the most popular back in rental in Miami. For the renters it's a rock solid, reliable, predictable back that many shooters here already know it's ins and outs of. It's also very reasonably priced in rental compared to a 5D Mark 2 and the images (compared to that camera) speak for themselves.

These rental shooters very often own (specifically) a 5D Mark 2 and use it tethered or CF-transfered to Capture One so using a P30+ is a natural "upgrade" when they need more umph in their files because it will fit into their existing capture one tethered or untethered workflow.

Another benefit for this crowd is the completely consistent speed. dSLRs have a huge advantage in burst speed (5, 7, or even higher frames per second) but on a fashion set the burst speed is limited by the recycle time of the slowest flash on the set (usually the one turned up the highest since often all the packs are the same type) and so rather than burst speed the photographer craves have no limit on the "depth" of shooting fast and on having the last image in a series be available for viewing as soon as he puts down the camera. A 30+ on an H body tethered to Capture One can shoot 83 frames in two minutes and the final image will be on the screen about 3 seconds after the shutter release and every frame along the way will be at the same pace - you have to try VERY hard to fill the buffer of a 30+ (most shooters would never find the buffer limit).

A final point I'd mention about fashion/portrait/location work for the 30+ is the backup scenario. Very often when we rent a 30+ it is to someone flying in to Miami, arranging all the equipment, crew, and talent, and then driving to the keys or other not-in-miami location for a multi-day shoot. For these shoots an hour of downtime is an unacceptable risk so they need two bodies (backs very very rarely "go down" so they don't need an extra back) and with a P30+ they can take any 30+ with any two H2 bodies (bodies being cheap to rent while backs are not) - they don't need to be matched or "paired".

The reason you don't see a lot about the 30+ on this forum is the large portion of the forum members who are interested more in landscape than fashion/portrait/event. The 45+/65+/40+ makes much more sense for them. The 30+ has microlenses which prohibits its use on a technical camera and makes it a questionable long-term investment for any landscape shooter - landscape shooters also often need/want wide angle lenses and the crop factor can become an issue and do not need the speed benefit of the 30+.

All that said I think we'll see a gradual transition to the 40+ being the main-stay back in rental here. The rental market (at least this rental market) simply doesn't move quickly to new equipment - in fact we still rent the 1Ds II about as often as the 1Ds III.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Thanks Doug I would also add as well as a first time buyer to MF with a reasonable budget in mind. This is by far one of the best backs to buy into. They are relatively inexpensive and right out of the gun one of better backs known. Pretty much hit the ground running backs. Basically bullet proof with C1 to get great files straight out of the cam. Another great reason it is in the rental houses. I had this back coming from the P25+ and was much happier with the P30+ i could shoot ISO 800 pretty much noise free and when it really counted to keep noise at the lowest and still maintain a good ISO than 400 is very very good. I would not say that with a P25+ or P45+. This is a solid ISO 400 back with 800 if you really need lower noise control you can get it with one of the noise programs or some adjustments in C1 itself. Mostly talking in terms of default here but I used ISO 800 a lot on this back. I moved up to the P40+ but that was a 3 month decision for me which is extremely rare and reason being was the P30+ was so good. Personally I can recommend this back very much . It pretty much has it all and maybe reason I called it the general purpose back. Regardless of what Doug said i cheated and used this on landscape stuff all the time but he is correct for fashion/portrait/wedding type work it is very well designed for that.
 

kdphotography

Well-known member
I also had a Phase P30 back, and agree with Guy that this is a fantastic MFDB. Files look pretty good right out the box. Easy to use and fast. I also shot landscape with my P30, and Don Libby has with his P30+ as well, and with great success.

IMHO, the P30/P30+ (soon probably to be de-throned by the P40+) is the sweet-spot in terms of MFDBs. The files are "just-right"---nice quality, not too big, easy to work with. Big bang for the buck in terms of price of entry.

Another thing to mention is the crop factor. Weaknesses in lenses are most easily shown in the corners. With the P30 crop, those apparent weakness go by the wayside. In otherwords, all the older generation Mamiya glass remain viable for use. Having moved on to the Phase P65+, I am pretty much relegated to buying the newer and better D series glass, and at a much higher price point---this, and having to buy a new computer workstation were two factors I didn't put enough weight into when purchasing the P65+. (The P45+ had worked well with early glass and my current computer before moving on to the P65+)

ken
 

Ebe

New member
Ken said it all, another vote for the 30+ or 40+ as
the sweet-spot in the MFDB lineup.
 

tjv

Active member
Thanks for your answers guys.

Seems like the P30+ is a sweet back. To be honest the only thing that turns me off slightly is the 1.3x crop. I really like the compressed depth / 3D look you more easily see when using bigger sensors / film. I like the sound of the P30+ mid range ISO capability being better than most which, although I mainly sit at 100ISO, will be important to it's versatility in use, especially if needing to work hand held.

To further explain the type of work I want to do with it; I'm always in the field. I shoot mainly what people would call social documentary / street photography. I walk the streets - rain, hail or snow - and photograph independently of assistants, computers etc. Everything is taken under natural light, with the occasional (badly executed!) use of flash. I like the idea of MF digital for several reasons. By and large, I like to take my time when I work. I'm usually on a tripod these days and I don't fire off thousands of shots. The type of work I do also requires I give something back to gain peoples trust and also say thanks. With film (I've been loving using a Mamiya 7 kit for four years, as well as 4x5",) It takes a long time to get photos back to the subjects and by the time they get them a bond / trust is often broken. Digital is just quicker and more helpful in this regard. I also feel adding a digital MF back will be a positive step in becoming wholly independent from any labs and technicians that (sometimes) don't meet quality expectations. I'm sick of couriering film out - you've got two sets of couriers to worry about, the lab staff etc. Lastly, the cost of shooting film is now insane. The quality and look of the final result from film is just not an issue, for me it's perfect, but when you can't afford to shoot a lot and take risks, well, what's the point?

Anyway, I appreciate all of your comments. What is the going rate for a P30+ these days in the US? The market here is really small and thus prices are usually a good 50% more, with little support network to justify it...

Tim
 

tjv

Active member
Thanks to all of you who have sent me private messages and advise.

I've had the pleasure of playing with a forum members files from a P30 (non plus) and can see it is a big step in the right direction from both 35mm digital and, to a lesser extent, drum scanned 6x7 film. Doing the math at my end, it would take me between 3.5 and 4.5 years at my current rate of shooting with 120 film to spend the equivalent on a MF setup as to buying film and paying for processing. This calculation doesn't even take into account the cost of drum scanning, so realistically buying into MF makes a lot of financial sense for me, not to mention it will make me 100% autonomous from labs and such.

So for me it is coming down to choosing between the P30+ and P40+. I am most certain I will buy from Capture Integration. Now I just need to get the years tax out of the way and sell some prints to pay for it all!

One concern I do have after reading Guy's review between the P30+, P40+ and P45+ is the P30+ magenta / red colour bias. It looks really bad to my eyes in the sample images. I much prefer a more neutral colour of the P40+ which edges towards a more classic "Kodak tone."

Any comments on this last point?

Tim
 

f8orbust

Active member
If you can afford to wait, and haven't already got $ invested in Phase/Mamiya gear, I can't see any way that Pentax's sub-$10k 40MP digital 645D+lens kit isn't going to have an effect on Phase/Leaf's competing products in the months ahead, especially the $20k P40+/Aptus II-8. From a financial perspective, right now might just possibly be the worst time to buy a MFDB.
 

Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
A quick observation on non-modular bodies (like the Pentax and S2) is simply the expense involved in upgrading. With a detachable back, your upgrade only needs to be the back or body itself, not both, and the upgrade is available whenever either is revised. Also note, at least with Phase and I suspect Leaf as well, you can have mounts changed should you decide on another camera platform.

Doug touched on back-up. I can keep an inexpensive 1st version AFD body for back-up (under $500) as emergency if my body goes down. I can also keep a film back and a dozen or so rolls of film with it for a small investment, again as back-up should my back go down. (Granted, you could keep a spare Pentax film body laying around for the full analog back-up part too.)

Small points to be sure, but I feel they are worth keeping in the decision matrix.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Also Hassy and Phase are well proven systems with rental houses filled with product to use in almost any major city. Need, lens, back or body when on location is a huge factor. Also we have dedicated software completely tuned to these backs for utmost performance and image quality. The Pentax as nice as it maybe is not in rental house (YET) maybe never be. Does not have dedicated software, does not do tethering and it does not have backup options. All these are extremely important to the working Pro. A lot of questions yet to be answered. For the hobbyist some of these are not of concern so maybe not a big deal. Also service and repair, the Pentax goes down being only in Japan right now than it may have to go back for repair which could take weeks. I today can have a back in my hands by 10 am the next day. So lot's of decisions go into a purchase , sure 10k sounds cheap but it could also be expensive to a pro for backups , repairs and everything else in time and money. The other equation is how good is that 40 mpx sensor and the optics that go with it. Not saying it is not a good option just right now that is all unknown. Buy a Phase or Hassy today your are shooting within 5 minutes with a whole multitude of product, service, support, software and rentals. Plus technical camera options Alpa, Cambo etc etc.

The Pentax is a exciting systems but proof will be in the pudding. The MF market is very fickle and we have seen the players take a bath too.
 

f8orbust

Active member
I think the months ahead will be interesting, so long as Pentax avoids the Mamiya ZD fiasco. They're a company that have always done well in the past, so I'd be optimistic. If you want the infrastructure that Phase/Leaf has in place then sure, there is no other option just now. As for back-up backs/bodies, 2 x 645D = 1 x P40+ in price, so that's one way to address it. Lenses? Pentax have produced some super optics over the years, and I'd expect nothing to change now they've entered the MFDB era. Tethering is yesterday's technology, wireless SD cards are the future. Upgrading - for sure that's an issue, but 40MP is going to be enough for a lot of people. I'm sure many would be looking for better high ISO performance in MFDBs than simply more and more pixels. The fact that Pentax are already talking about MFDB backs based on CMOS sensors is interesting indeed. Whatever happens, a bit of competition at long last is welcome. In the long run, we're all going to benefit - and that can't be a bad thing.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Pushing 40 mpx images wirelessly is going to be a challenge. We will have to see . Remember it needs to be fast and today i get 2 second previews wired of course. I would love it but something needs to change for it to happen is my guess.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
They are DNG's i believe from the pentax . Like Leica they need a lossless compression, hope they think about this.
 

f8orbust

Active member
It'll shoot in either Pentax's proprietary (lossless) compressed RAW .PEF format, or Adobe's open source .DNG format. Plus, of course, JPEGs (three sizes) as well as RAW+JPEG. Looks like they've given it quite a bit of thought ;-).
 

tjv

Active member
Yes, the Pentax does indeed seem like a good option. My reasoning for Phase though is a P30+ from CI is about 10K, the same price as the 645D? The trade in schemes Phase offers are very attractive in the long term and make a lot of sense financially. Support? I'm screwed either way. I live in the middle of nowhere in the camera world.

At the end of the day for me, I'm only interested in a rock solid system that can be used day in, day out without any drama. I think Mamiya / Phase is proven in this way.
 

f8orbust

Active member
As a tried and tested system, Phase One/Leaf/Mamiya has a good track record, and if you're not going to go with Hasselblad it's about the only game in town for sure. I hope in the near future we'll be saying the same of Pentax, and I think we will. (I still maintain that you'll get your P30+ at a better price sooner than you'd imagine... ;)).
 

kdphotography

Well-known member
Until the Pentax 645D actually makes it to the US, I still consider it vaporware. To me, the 645D is more comparable to the Leica S2, except that the Leica S2 is available now.

Because I already use an interchangeable back system, I have absolutely no interest in cameras like the 645D or S2. (though I invite more MF Digital manufacturers to join in the fun)

Phase MFDBs have a solid history of performance. And rather than guessing about future Pentax 645D *what ifs*, the Phase P30+ is a system that you can use right now--today.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Ditto. You want rock solid today and in a remote location of the world go Phase or go Hassy. They both can be counted on. I happen to like the Phase because i own it for one and they have a good track record for build quality. I had the p30+ and it is a solid back and great performer.
 
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