The Hartblei Camera with Canon 24 T/S?

[tashley]

Tim,

As I see it... I think these 2 cameras are very, very different.
They have the integrated sliding back in common but other than that they are different.

I see the Hartblei somehow like a mirrorless substituion for a 645 camera - but with a much wider choice of lenses.
It's actually a body with a shutter and a finder. But when it comes to movements this is a matter of the lenses.
Actually, there are only the Hartblei and the Canon (and Nikon?) T/S lenses that allow movments on this camera… AFAIK.

The arTec is a full blown tech camera providing shift, tilt and swing (and stitching) with any large format lens (basically… in fact Sinar is only mounting Rodenstock lenses).
Therefore it is much less limited in the use of conventional movements. The only limits that come to mind are the image circles of the lenses.

So beside the cost factor I think the choice is:
- Hartblei Cam to mount a lot of lenses; but just a limited set of lenses providing movements (i.e. more general use)
- Sinar arTec for full movements; but limited to large format lenses (i.e. specialized use)
As you can't use the large format lenses on your 5D2 with the arTec there would also be less system integration.
Unless you buy another tech camera with DSLR mount… but than you should consider e.g. Arca Swiss (M2-MF & M2-DSLR).

Horses for courses …

Hi Tim,
I don't know why you are fearing the exchange of the back. I do it all the time.
Of course you have to take care. Of course a sliding back would be nice. But it depends on how you are shooting. I compose with a little finder, or crop with the camera interface or simply with my hands. Then I set up the camera. Then I compose on the GG. Mount the back. Shoot. Only... really only when I want to make variations of the the same scene I wished I'd have a sliding back.
Tomorrow my 70mm on a T/S lens panel will be shipped. I'll come back to you after playing around with it a little bit...

Hi Thomas,

I have a sort of sixth sense for composition and exposure on my Cambo rig now and mostly get it right first time or at most with a trial shot or two so the need to swap out to GG is purely about extreme finesse of focus. I agree that in many environments, swapping out isn't a problem but glaciers, deserts, places like that do make me wince a bit: when you're already fumbling with cold fingers or sweat in your eyes, an LCC card, the chinese finger trap of aperture and shutter adjustments on a Cambo, etc, I just sometimes wish I had a slider! But the only one I tried was on the Silvestri flexcam and it was badly calibrated so focus was a guesstimate anyways.

I am loving that Stefan is here: hopefully Guy and Jack will test a Hartblei and I'll get my hands on an Artec and a Hartblei within a day of each other.

The truth is out there...

;-)

 

[thomas]

I agree that in many environments, swapping out isn't a problem but glaciers, deserts, places like that do make me wince a bit: when you're already fumbling with cold fingers or sweat in your eyes, an LCC card, the chinese finger trap of aperture and shutter adjustments on a Cambo, etc, I just sometimes wish I had a slider! But the only one I tried was on the Silvestri flexcam and it was badly calibrated so focus was a guesstimate anyways.

Hi Tim,
understandable.
How do you handle the mount change? Do you first mount the interface on the camera and then the back or do you first mount the back on the interface and then mount both on the camera? I always mount the back first on the interface (my camera case acts as a windbreak) and this way you can cover the sensor quite well. However I miss a cover for the interface. Something to protect the sensor when it's mounted on the interface. Could be a piece of plastic actually....
As to the LCC... I've just bought this piece: http://www.sinar.ch/en/products/accessories/55-sinar-artec-zubehoer/190-white-shading-diffusor
Very helpful accessory!
By chance last friday a Sinar guy was in my home town and showed me the arTec. In particular the GG is simply a dream! Even with a wide angle (35HR) stopped down to f8 it's very comfortable to work with (and wide open it's really bright)!
But there are also some things I am finding clearly more smart on the WRS. Small things... but worth to consider anyhow. E.g. the arTec has no scale for shift on the rear. The WRS lens hood is much more flexible and therefore much better suitable to be moved to the edges of the GG which is helpful in particular with a fresnel GG. The WRS has snap locks every 5mm of shift... the arTec does not. Bottom line... without doubt both have their strengths!
As I shoot a lot of architecural stuff the arTec would be my camera actually. But... I've played around with the arTec, the Rm3d, the Techno, the WDS... and finally I think the WRS offers me a lot of benefits I don't want to miss. In fact this little piece of metal is very well thought out! A brighter GG and occasionally a sliding back would be fine though.

 

[chiek]

Hi all.
my custom made camera (accepts EF lenses and medium format back)
hartblei price is SO HIGH... therefore I made it.
It uses PRONTOR 3 professional shutter. so don't need re-cocking.

please below link,

http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=42099

I have some samples with this cam and 17TS.
17TS has 67.2mm image circle. so It can shift 3~4mm with my CF-39MS.
I've confirmed 4mm shift well done.


Now, this cam sent to customer, architecture photographer in europe.

This cam price only US$3000. any mounts (V,H, M, contax..) can do it.

I'm not camera maker, just a pro-photographer based in Seoul, KOREA.

but my hobby is camera designing. so I enjoy it.

my other designed cameras,

nikon F mounts, very small camera.
28PC nikkor
http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=36322
85mm F1.4 T carl zeiss for contax
http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=40648

technical camera 3shot panorama stitching using GX680 standard
http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=42041

 

[Stefan Steib]

Hi Thomas

TS-with the sylvestri Tubes -NO, but there is this new Cambo stuff - the WTS adapters for TS from 28 to 90mm lenses e.g. here :
http://www.cambo.com/Html/products_photo/set01/english/internet/Item21971.html
as I said we will be able to adapt most of those accessories to our cam if someone wants that. But of course at a cost.

So anyone will need to decide if these lenses are worth to him some grands extra.

Especially when you will see that you don´t have to do Moiree shots with all of the 35mm TS lenses on the backs with HCam.

Some other details: we can do the 4000th (and all short exposure times) of a second untethered, you can release the shutter with a radio remote release (we sport either Canon or Nikon plugs for all available accessories), the flash is triggered by a hotshoe as with any normal modern camera and our apertures with Canon lenses are set in 1/4 f stops electronically controlled.

So we actually offer the comfort of a modern DSLR but without the mirrorslap and usage more like an oldfashioned viewcamera with interchangeable finders (you need to focus once with our Hartblei loupe mounted, then you will know what I mean).

Greetings from Kiev
Stefan

 

[thomas]

TS-with the sylvestri Tubes -NO, but there is this new Cambo stuff - the WTS adapters for TS from 28 to 90mm lenses

Thanks, Stefan.
But thoses lenses do not provide shift. Only tilt and swing. So for shift there are the Canon and Hartblei lenses or the Pentax 67 with the Zörk adapter (or similar). But I am anxious to see your own upcoming solution.

 

[tashley]

Hi Tim,
understandable.
How do you handle the mount change? Do you first mount the interface on the camera and then the back or do you first mount the back on the interface and then mount both on the camera? I always mount the back first on the interface (my camera case acts as a windbreak) and this way you can cover the sensor quite well. However I miss a cover for the interface. Something to protect the sensor when it's mounted on the interface. Could be a piece of plastic actually....
As to the LCC... I've just bought this piece: http://www.sinar.ch/en/products/accessories/55-sinar-artec-zubehoer/190-white-shading-diffusor
Very helpful accessory!
By chance last friday a Sinar guy was in my home town and showed me the arTec. In particular the GG is simply a dream! Even with a wide angle (35HR) stopped down to f8 it's very comfortable to work with (and wide open it's really bright)!
But there are also some things I am finding clearly more smart on the WRS. Small things... but worth to consider anyhow. E.g. the arTec has no scale for shift on the rear. The WRS lens hood is much more flexible and therefore much better suitable to be moved to the edges of the GG which is helpful in particular with a fresnel GG. The WRS has snap locks every 5mm of shift... the arTec does not. Bottom line... without doubt both have their strengths!
As I shoot a lot of architecural stuff the arTec would be my camera actually. But... I've played around with the arTec, the Rm3d, the Techno, the WDS... and finally I think the WRS offers me a lot of benefits I don't want to miss. In fact this little piece of metal is very well thought out! A brighter GG and occasionally a sliding back would be fine though.

That is really useful info, thank you! In particular if there are no rear markings for shift, how do you make records for LCC? I assume front markings. The news about the hood flexibility is interesting too.

I love my WRS - it is small and light and dare I say it almost unobtrusive in the field because people tend to think you're surveying for a new drain or something!

 

[thomas]

I love my WRS - it is small and light and dare I say it almost unobtrusive in the field because people tend to think you're surveying for a new drain or something!

That is really useful info, thank you! In particular if there are no rear markings for shift, how do you make records for LCC? I assume front markings. The news about the hood flexibility is interesting too.

Yes, the arTec provides the shift indication on the front... as vertical movements are made with the lens the scale is on the side of the lens.

Basically... all these little details tell a lot about the underlying "philosophy" of the camera.

The arTec is clearly designed to shoot accurately composed single shots (in contrast to stitching multiple captures). First, movements are splitted: lateral on the rear, rise/fall on the lens. Too, there are e.g. magnetic masks for the GG that crop the sensor plane. The GG and the loupe are more designed to provide a clear and bright view of the (sensor-) cropped image... they are not really designed to show the entire image circle of the lens (although even this is still working quite good). Consequently there is no need to know the movements for the LCC... you simply shoot it in the same scene with the same movements/settings (and with Sinar's mountable white shading diffusor that's really easy).

The WRS is more designed to provide stitching (4 way movements of the back within the image circle). And, of course, designed to shoot handheld, too. Consequently the GG shows a larger part of the image circle. They do not provide magnetic masks for the WRS but an indication of the sensor planes and the amount of movements in millimeters on the GG. And a very flexible focussing hood (which was designed for the WDS, AFAIK). Downside of the flexible focussing hood is: you have to hold it with one hand (the hood of the arTec holds the center position and the distance to the GG).

etc. ...

Me I like to see the amount of shift on the rear of the camera (resp. on the GG). Not so much beause of the LCC thing. But it's easier for stitching. And it's easier to take the lens capabilities into account... for instance I know that 15mm shift with the 47XL is the critical limit regarding sharpness (17mm shift actually). So I want to see which part of the image is in that critical area. If there is something important in the scene, asking for good sharpness, I know that I have to move back a little bit. That's clear and easy with the WRS as it indicates the amount of shift on 2 sides of the body and on the GG. Too, if you set up the camera very high, standing on a step or the camera case, you still can see the shift indication without the need to walk around the camera (or to rotate it 180° on the tripod to see the front).

Bottom line... IMO... the arTec is much better to compose single shots. The WRS is more multifunctional.