The Hartblei Camera with Canon 24 T/S?

[tashley]

I guess most people will have seen MR's review of this combo at

http://luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/hartblei-cam.shtml

and maybe have looked at the Hartblei website at

http://www.hartblei.de/en/hartbleicam1.htm

Now by my reckoning the Hatblei cam plus the Canon 24T/S will come in at about £7,186 including sales taxes, whereas a Sinar with 28 HR would be about £14,000 or about £1,200 less with the 35 HR. The Hartblei can be supplied to run with a Phase back battery, will allow the mounting of countless lenses (many of which won't have the image circle or resolution to keep up with a P65+ of course) and allows simultaneous T and S with the Canon, which apparently has a huge image circle, whereas it is my understanding that the sinar allows only T or S at any one time.

The trouble with the LL review is that it was done using a P45+ which is obviously a slightly smaller sensor, and MR doesn't explicitly state what the image circle of the Canon is.

SO does anyone have a view? It looks mighty tempting on a price basis, interesting to be able to use the 24TS on my 5DII as well, and to be able to use a 400MM tele on a P65+.

Hmmm...

 

[H3dtogo]

I have been using it with the 24 and the 17mm TS. In one word: awesome.

 

[tashley]

I have been using it with the 24 and the 17mm TS. In one word: awesome.

Aw c'mon you can't just drop something as juicy as that and run! Which back have you been using? I assume the first shot you posted is either the 17,, or the 24 shifted heavily?

Please please please tell us more - this sounds so exciting!

 

[Jack]

whereas it is my understanding that the sinar allows only T or S at any one time.

It was my understanding that the front standard on the Sinar rotates through 360 degrees, thereby allowing virtually any combination of tilt and swing with the one tilt movement axis. If I am wrong and it doesn't roate, then that is a significant shortcoming of the Sinar...

Agree, I want to know which back, lenses and settings were used in the above images. I'd also like 100% crops form center, 2/3 out and corners...

 

[H3dtogo]

The first shot is with the 17mm full shifted up apperture fully opened. Unfortunately I only had a 16Mp back at my disposal. In the next weeks my own Hartbleicam will be arriving ( a production model with possibility to close the apperture on Canon lenses). At this moment it makes no sense to post crops because i could not yet close the lens down(I used a prototype wich did not yet had apperture control). As soon as my Cam arrives I will write a complete review.

 

[tashley]

The first shot is with the 17mm full shifted up apperture fully opened. Unfortunately I only had a 16Mp back at my disposal. In the next weeks my own Hartbleicam will be arriving ( a production model with possibility to close the apperture on Canon lenses). At this moment it makes no sense to post crops because i could not yet close the lens down(I used a prototype wich did not yet had apperture control). As soon as my Cam arrives I will write a complete review.

Thank you - I will really look forward to that!

 

[tashley]

It was my understanding that the front standard on the Sinar rotates through 360 degrees, thereby allowing virtually any combination of tilt and swing with the one tilt movement axis. If I am wrong and it doesn't roate, then that is a significant shortcoming of the Sinar...

Agree, I want to know which back, lenses and settings were used in the above images. I'd also like 100% crops form center, 2/3 out and corners...

You might be right Jack - I will try to check their site out. I had read the following from the Artec thread, which might well be wrong:

I know this is about arTec NOT RS.

Holes - shouldn't be a bother. Although no light leakage but just like to have the front elements to be all sealed as much as possible. I have seen the older version DS with rubber caps. Tried using the end cap from a humble blk Bic pen - ended up putting the bars back on.

Back to the arTec, the Cambo TS can do both at once. The arTec can only do one or the other. likewise with Alpa.

My main interest with arTec is to see how effective is the GG from Minolta (?) Fresnel lens per DOF and focusing using HR lenses. As you know, I'm concerned with RS GG but only to be confirmed by you (?) that it is now shipped with Fresnel lens BUT yet has limitation - at least it is brighter than the older Cambo GG. Cambo supplier here has the OLD GG not the new fresnel. So the best and closest GG fresnel "relative" is my friend Sinar dealer - the arTec. If I can live with that, I can live with the new RS GG.

 

[Jack]

16MP back... Is that a 37mm x 37mm sensor?

 

[H3dtogo]

yep, I asked for a hasselblad H camera but in italy they accidently shipped yhe Mamiya version. The only back I had with me in mamiya fit was a 37/37mm back. But still, it continues to stay a great cam. As soon as possible i will be shooting multishot on a large sensor.

 

[thomas]

It was my understanding that the front standard on the Sinar rotates through 360 degrees, thereby allowing virtually any combination of tilt and swing with the one tilt movement axis.

yes, that's correct

 

[yaya]

Tim, Peartree in London should be able to arrange a demo for you with your P65+

Yair

 

[thomas]

Tim,

As I see it... I think these 2 cameras are very, very different.
They have the integrated sliding back in common but other than that they are different.

I see the Hartblei somehow like a mirrorless substituion for a 645 camera - but with a much wider choice of lenses.
It's actually a body with a shutter and a finder. But when it comes to movements this is a matter of the lenses.
Actually, there are only the Hartblei and the Canon (and Nikon?) T/S lenses that allow movments on this camera… AFAIK.

The arTec is a full blown tech camera providing shift, tilt and swing (and stitching) with any large format lens (basically… in fact Sinar is only mounting Rodenstock lenses).
Therefore it is much less limited in the use of conventional movements. The only limits that come to mind are the image circles of the lenses.

So beside the cost factor I think the choice is:
- Hartblei Cam to mount a lot of lenses; but just a limited set of lenses providing movements (i.e. more general use)
- Sinar arTec for full movements; but limited to large format lenses (i.e. specialized use)
As you can't use the large format lenses on your 5D2 with the arTec there would also be less system integration.
Unless you buy another tech camera with DSLR mount… but than you should consider e.g. Arca Swiss (M2-MF & M2-DSLR).

Horses for courses …

 

[tashley]

Tim,

As I see it... I think these 2 cameras are very, very different.
They have the integrated sliding back in common but other than that they are different.

I see the Hartblei somehow like a mirrorless substituion for a 645 camera - but with a much wider choice of lenses.
It's actually a body with a shutter and a finder. But when it comes to movements this is a matter of the lenses.
Actually, there are only the Hartblei and the Canon (and Nikon?) T/S lenses that allow movments on this camera… AFAIK.

The arTec is a full blown tech camera providing shift, tilt and swing (and stitching) with any large format lens (basically… in fact Sinar is only mounting Rodenstock lenses).
Therefore it is much less limited in the use of conventional movements. The only limits that come to mind are the image circles of the lenses.

So beside the cost factor I think the choice is:
- Hartblei Cam to mount a lot of lenses; but just a limited set of lenses providing movements (i.e. more general use)
- Sinar arTec for full movements; but limited to large format lenses (i.e. specialized use)
As you can't use the large format lenses on your 5D2 with the arTec there would also be less system integration.
Unless you buy another tech camera with DSLR mount… but than you should consider e.g. Arca Swiss (M2-MF & M2-DSLR).

Horses for courses …

I sort of agree Thomas but the trouble is that there are so many different courses that one can't have a specific horse for each! I totally understand that these are different beasts but in fact their claimed fields of competence overlap fairly closely with the area that most interests me: the only problem is that with lenses as wide as 24mm, the selective focus benefits of tilts and swings are somewhat (but not totally) redundant so if I went for the Hartblei I'd probably have to swing (pardon the pun) for one of their longer focal length super rotators too, in the Canon fit.

What bothers me about the Hartblei is the Mammy shutter, with its barn door behaviour, because key to my work with the Cambo gear I currently use is the leaf shutter of the Schneider, which means you can make high DOF/slow exposure work without worrying about shake.

I will try both (as Yair has said, Peartree in London have the Hartblei) but I might just end up with the 72mm TS panel for the Cambo and stomach the fact that on those rare occasions when I need tilts and swings, I'll have to exchange the back for the GG. It's certainly going to be a much cheaper option than either of the others, and will allow me to keep my Schneider 35, of which I am quite fond! Another benefit of this is the ability to continue using the Cambo/Schneider setup in combination with an M9 as my favoured travel outfit: it covers all wide to short tele lengths with fantastic quality and works with a very light tripod!

 

[H3dtogo]

Hy Tim, the Hartblei shutter is completely free of vibration. it is the most silent behind the lens shutter i ever used. No vibration whatshowever, wich makes this camera a perfect base for a complete Repro(multishot)system( coming soon as i have heard from the Hartblei people)

 

[Jack]

I would love to get my hands on one to review for the forum -- just mention it in case anybody has a contact at Hartblei!

 

[Stefan Steib]

Jack

Help may be on the way......;-)

First of all thanks for this forum, I always enjoyed reading it (for _Some_ years now). But Now I think I can shed some info on several open questions in this thread.

First vibrations: The Cam is made of massive plates of Aluminium, screwed together in several layers. The shutter is placed into a massive block of rubber further eliminating what would not be killed in the aluplates. And further the quite long structure of the Cam in shooting position does additional stabilizing against any waves of vibration that may try to get through.

Second: versatility of lenses
Beside the 35mm lenses that are usable there are of course about all medium Format lenses adaptable and as you may know there are several makers of shift and tilt adapters besides us (e.g.Mirex, Zörk) who do allow usage of Hasselblad, Mamiya, Pentax6/7 and plenty other lenses to be shifted AND tilted. BTW we are also working on a solution for that.
And if someone wants it- we can easily adapt (needs only 4 holes to be drilled) e.g. Silvestri tubes and helicoids to the front.

The system is completey open, we will never try to limit our customers needs by any brand limitations. If it exists we mount it - promised !

Greetings from right now Kiev
Stefan Steib - CEO Hartblei

 

[Jack]

Wow, that's what I call service LOLOLOLOL!

Welcome Stefan, great to have you here as a resource!

 

[thomas]

And if someone wants it- we can easily adapt (needs only 4 holes to be drilled) e.g. Silvestri tubes and helicoids to the front.

Hi Stefan,
now that sounds interessting! Does that mean that those large format lenses can be shifted (and tilted) with the Silvestri tubes?
Thanks!

 

[thomas]

I will try both (as Yair has said, Peartree in London have the Hartblei) but I might just end up with the 72mm TS panel for the Cambo and stomach the fact that on those rare occasions when I need tilts and swings, I'll have to exchange the back for the GG.

Hi Tim,
I don't know why you are fearing the exchange of the back. I do it all the time.
Of course you have to take care. Of course a sliding back would be nice. But it depends on how you are shooting. I compose with a little finder, or crop with the camera interface or simply with my hands. Then I set up the camera. Then I compose on the GG. Mount the back. Shoot. Only... really only when I want to make variations of the the same scene I wished I'd have a sliding back.
Tomorrow my 70mm on a T/S lens panel will be shipped. I'll come back to you after playing around with it a little bit...

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Hey Stefan good to see you here and welcome to the forum. Guy