Thanks Graham need to get a handle on all of these. i love the ZD back the files are really good but the interface bugs me. But if i am going for more would like to see the file improve too
Maybe Thierry can get me some info on these as well
don't forget, hy6 is the only af system (currently) that has a chance of being at least close to full-frame square.
However, I refuse to make $50-60K investments based on Vaporware.
IMO (and based on experience), by the time a full frame sensor hits the market, all these cameras and backs will be into the 2nd or 3rd generation from what they are now.
Multiple AF points have all ready made the scene (Mamiya AFD-III). The AF drives will also improve. So, if AF is the unique criteria, that's going to change ... and those changes are hardware based. Otherwise there are all kinds of 6X6 and 6X7 cameras out there just waiting for a 54X54 digital back.
GPS as add ons are here ... that'll be built in hardware. I suspect a universal strobe trigger will also be built in ... one that reads your current remote signal and programs itself like a the universal TV remotes do. Plus, I'm sure there is stuff we don't even suspect yet. The future is expodentially screaming at us ... so, love the one you're with.
IF and WHEN it all does happen, the decision can be made then ... meanwhile the cash earns money elsewhere rather than depreciating at a ferocious rate.
A 6X6 digital camera would be most welcome no matter who makes it. It'll take it's place along side the 645 just like it did with film. More choices = more horses for more courses.
I want the new Mamiya AFD-III that is certainly on my radar screen. Hopefully soon
The next back I buy will be 'it' until it literally disintegrates...resolution is so high that these MFD backs are studio cameras - even though you can shoot in good daylight..in the main they are stick on tripod things or shoot with lights..pop pop pop..otherwise what teh hell are you doing - wasting all that resolving power on shaky hands?( and btw everyone's hands shake ..whether you know it or not) @30 + megapixels everything has to be perfect or everything is just not quite right ..
You can keep the holy grail - 6X6 chip guys - never understood the use or fascination for it - call me a philistine if you like ! LOL
I will certainly give a full report on this. I was hoping Lance could get one for San Juan but I think it is too early for him to get his hands on one.
Also Victor, from what I am hearing from Phase One they will have a digital back mount available for the new Rollei platform , it is just they will not commit to a date as when it will be available. It would be weird that the digital manufacture with the most market share wordwide (PhaseOne) would be locked out of a platform and not pursue a solution. IMHO :For a platform (Rollei/Hy6/Afi) to succeed I would l think that they would need to justify the production with selling a certain volume, hence multiple backs available for it.
So if you are happy with the work-flow of your P back and it seems you are beings you are on your 3rd generation and are not in a dire need to add an additional work-flow/software package, then I would suggest you wait.
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To be sure, Jenoptik desired the Hy6 camera to be on more than the Sinar platform, since - to this point - Sinar has trailed in market share compared to Leaf, Phase, Hasselblad. So, they made an agreement with Leaf and that fulfilled the number of units they were looking for to make the project a financial success. It's possible there was negotiation or bidding with Phase, and Leaf simply won that process - made a larger financial committment, etc.
Leaf also has much more symbiotic history with Sinar than Phase One does. And that could have been a factor. But we don't know exactly what happened.
I don't know why any digital back manufacturer couldn't fashion a mounting plate and - using a flash sync cable - make a digital back work on a Hy6. But there may be more to it than this, and it's possible that if Jenoptik truly want to keep this between Leaf and Sinar - hey Phase, go make your own camera! - then you could imagine a created firmware in the future that changes internal timings, etc that make even a flash sync communication difficult. That would be pretty hard core though.
But the intellectual property aspect of this could very well play a role, and a manufacturer who creates a complete medium format digital solution may have the right, and the ability to invoke such a privilege. Is it right for the photographic community or Phase One users in particular? Not necessarily, but we're entering an era of complete systems, and I believe this will propel Phase One to get into the game, which they're long overdue at joining. That certainly would be positive for Phase One users. In the past, the choices have been which digital back do I put on my film camera? In the present and future, the choices will be which digital camera system do I go with?
and for all the internet chat room malarky that goes on basically denigrating anything that isn't made by 'Zeiss'...with all kinds of pseudo science opinion tossed around...regarding 'lens drawing and eg plasticity ( my favourite funny word) NONE of which relates to ANY empirical testing regime...OR is easily demonstrable in PRINT...
.Phase One and Mamiya is providing a strong alternative to Sinar/Leaf Hy6/Afi and Hasselblad.
Mamiya lenses are a lot cheaper than those above and deliver on quality.,,simple really..
from nowhere - the flexibility of the Mamiya system and the large installed user base becomes a competitive strength - where before the company was deemed as being 'dead'.
Yep closed systems work really well - until someone else makes a less closed system that delivers teh quality you want along with flexibility at a lower price.
Just FYI, Franke-Heidecke filed bankruptcy today.
See http://www.photoscala.de/Artikel/Fra...-ist-insolvent (unfortunately its only in German language)
That would be a great loss for the MF-photographers
Mamiya has a fine system, but certain aspects of other systems are superior and the Hy6-system is the technically most advanced MF-system with 1/1000s carbon central-shutters, 56x56mm image area (turnable sensors), usable with different backs (including film) and an extensive range of excellent older lenses and great AF-optics.
New Schneider/Zeiss-lenses (just compare Zeiss 40IF vs. Mamiya WAs) are usually superior regarding build- and IQ-quality and I don't think cost cutting on lenses (they're investments for decades!) is very wise in this segment at all...
Anyway, we need this diversity and it wouldn't be very good to lose any of todays MF-manufacturers, may it be Franke or Mamiya or Phase or Hasselblad...
As far as I remember it, "plasticity" was never a discussion about Mamiya vs. other MF-systems but DSLRs with CMOS and heavy processing/filtering!?
Last edited by georgl; 2nd March 2009 at 08:48.
I have to agree. Lot of risk and something I predicted quietly awhile back was we we only see two future generation bodies ( excluding the S2) and I certainly hope this has no effect on Leaf as a back maker. There is a relationship with Franke-Heidecke but I do not know the exact details of it so I don't want to speculate maybe Yair can address this from the Leaf end of the world.
Leaf has always (at least in North America ) had very close ties with Mamiya as well.
way to early to tell but I guess leaf can always use Mamiya as their platform as well.
This indeed is sad news.
Based on the news early in this forum with the Chapter 11 I would think that the Hy6 should not be your choice.
I guess no-one noticed that this thread was started in April of 2008. lol
Sure, but it went all the way to today!
This is a hoot.
I started this thread when I 'listened' to the "Contax is dead" crowd and figured, well, let's see what's out there.
Now, having decided to stay with my Contax 645, I see that the H2 and H6y have joined the 'dead' club.
The difference is-people are still picking up the Contax, and are happy...
The H2 crowd complains about 'closed' systems (H3) (but still pretty good stuff!)
The Hy6, well, uncertain, and little float...
The Ph/M amyia.. lots of complaints on lenses, bodies. (here and on LL).. and sorry, we ain't talking the mercedes of cameras here
But the latter have three big fans in Guy, Jack and Michael... I wish them well and do genuinely hope they improve features and lenses. HOWEVER, they have a price point, and , I am sorry, that will translate to a quality point - it is the law of the marketplace.
In the meantime, my only concern is finding a reasonable price for the Contax extension tubes for Macro work.....as I wait for the P65+... which I already know is not straining the Contax lenses, in spite of what MR siad when he sold his Contax . (see my post with P65+ Contax samples)
Why do I keep posting on the Contax 645?...
.... Well, as people tout the Sony, Mamyia, and Hasselblad, there are still Contax systems out there, and for those who MAY benefit and enjoy them, they deserve to hear about it.
Last edited by gogopix; 3rd March 2009 at 18:55.
I was saddened to hear about rollie. the hy 6 is a camera with a great feel to it. I had a rollie 6008 and 6003 great cameras but when I moved to idaho and used it outdoors the weight led me to switch to contax. Then with digital I sold my contax system. Also the rollie lenses were expensive. I now am back to the contax for black and white film and some day I hope a digital back. But boy I hope the hy 6 continues beautiful camera.
The F&H situation does not at all necessarly mean the Hy6 is dead. This would be only the worst case scenario-could maybe happen, but there are many other scenarios.
Apparently Jenoptik owns the rights to the system, and given Franke & Heidecke's longtime financial difficulties, Jenoptik almost certainly has a clause in the agreement about what happens to the manufacturing capability if F&H should shut their doors. The only unknown is who will manufacture the Hy6. I wonder if Leica has enough manufacturing capacity left over to handle this for Jenoptik? They did have a relationship in the recent past, although it is not clear how well it ended.
Yes, there are those who pick up the Contax and are happy ... yet there are those who are/weren't happy with it ... me being one of them. An AF camera that can't AF well isn't my idea of excellence compared to current offerings. And a focal plane shutter camera simply didn't fit my need for high sync speeds ... unfortunately for Contax owners, the leaf shutter lenses for this dead-end system will never materialize. Nor will improved AF ... or anything else utilitarian that may come along. I did like the IQ of some of the lenses which to Contax/Ziess's credit holds up to this day.
H2 crowd complains about a closed system? Answer: the improved H2 version: H2F with a CF-II back. No surprise that Hasselblad added integrated functionality to this combo over the H2 ... it's their product philosophy and whether you like it or not (I do), they seem to be sticking to it. But the CF back will work on virtually any MF camera out there. It's also no surprise that a back maker that now owns a camera company would block other back makers from using their cameras ... they are in business to sell THEIR backs ... if they only sold cameras they'd probably be in deep trouble, or out of business by now (witness recent events).
It's no secret that Hasselblad isn't the only closed system camera ... try using a Leaf AFi back on anything other than a Rollei Hy6 based camera, or even a Leaf Aptus back on their own AFi/Hy6 camera. I've not heard of anyone using any Phase One back or Hasselbald CF/CF-II back on a Hy6. The Leica S2 will also be a closed system, VERY closed in fact.
I'll leave the Mamiya folks to answer or ignore your discounting of that system ... which isn't dead end, seems to be improving by the minute, and holds more promise on the horizon.
Don't know why you'd include a Sony in your discourse ... what does a Sony 35mm DSLR have to do with a MFD discussion? Anyone with a MFD system knows it's an apples to watermelons comparison.
Good points... thanks for clarifying. Not trying to have a full trade-off in my posts- mostly just making sure the Contax option stays in people's minds while the market evolves.
Not since the Beta-VHS fight can I remember a superior simpler, technology losing to a better marketed system. If my sources are right, Phase tried to get the Contax rights and machinery-Mamyia was a rebound marriage. But, rejuvinating Contax is a super longshot. That's not what I am betting on. I simply think The current backs and Contax body-lens sysetm are a plateau that I would happily use forever. Film plateaued, long before digital. One hits a point where you just can't squeeze any more capability-at least not what people want.
That said, AF is slow in C645 but mostly works fine (for sports, I know a lot who prefocus anyway, as in racing and team sports)
BTW, my Beta still works and I did convert to digital. Even found a guy in VA who repairs-but who needs it. In ten years I may say the same about the C645. I figure in 5 years the Contax won't owe me anything and I can donate to the Smithsonian!
BTW, I like your work-where after all, most of the energy should go, regardsless the technology.
SIMPLE QUESTION ?
IF CONTAX WAS SUCH A GREAT SYSTEM, WHY IS THE BRAND DEAD. MAMIYA, HASSEY AND THE REST OF THE NOT SO WONDERFUL SYSTEMS STILL VERY MUCH ALIVE.
MAKES YOU THINK !
I think it is fair for Victor to try and keep the C645 alive. It was a great camera and certainly has life left in it, as do older Hassy V-series bodies and older Leica M film bodies.
Whether one wants to or should invest in it as a *new* system is more suspect however... Like Marc said, AF is slow and inefficient by current standards -- though not very far behind the Hy6's to be honest -- as is the onboard auto metering. Here both Hassy H2/3 and Mamiya AFD2/3 are superior, regardless of other issues one may have with either system.
Victor, re extension tubes... Son does have adapters that allow the Mamiya tilt-shift bellows to be mounted, though you lose the ability to use Contax lenses at the other end and have to resort to Mamiya manual mount, Hassy V, conventional large format, enlarging, digital specific or other manual-aperture lenses.
I can justify the minor cost of a Contax body to use as a mule for F/FE lenses ( many thanks for the adaptor David K) since I now have the luxury of a back ( many thanks Bradley Gibson) which I can change adaptors and bodies accordingly ( many thanks Sinar) same thing for the RZ (thanks David K and Jack) and V body ( thanks Blad ) and the Alpa ( thanks Alpa)
My a back "is just film philosophy" is working beautifully for me ! -
Would I use Contax as my only 645 system with a dedicated Phase One mount? - you have to be joking!! LOL Do I think the Contax lenses ( apart from the 80/2 and 120 Makro are anything special? Nope.
Everything changes according to flexibility - a camera and lens system is cheap compared to a digi back - film. I am loving the flexibility of being able to use a digi back like film and switch from system to system. and am getting a real kick out of being able to choose exactly the glass I want to use - not what some corporate strategist/ex sales guy in a two bit MFD back manufacturing company decides I can or can not do.
Just curious, which system do you take on your typical field shoot?
On the rare occassions I go on holiday Jack - it is the M8 and Alpa with 35XL and H back.I am over lugging 100 pounds of gear through airports!
If iIwant a retro look from glass I use the RZ - it is great for people shots with fading colour background or B&W film - signature of these lenses is quite old fashioned and unique IMHO
If I am doing some portrait work - either the 205TCC with CFV11 back and 110/2 or the Hy6 with either the 100/2 or the beautiful 180 Xenotar
If I shoot at night it is the D3 plus great Nikon flash with a Zeiss 28/2 or the 28-70 zoom.
Anything requiring strobe or tethered shooting no question Hasselblad.
If I am shooting street ( my favourite pastime ) - I am into using the Hy6 with WLF with the 40 or the 205TCC with the magnificent 50 FE.
I am going to write a report on what i have lerned ( the hard way) and what I have settled on and why - all from an enthuisiast's perspective..
I reallyy believe that the Pro market / thinking is VERY diferent to the enthusiast market in certain fundamental repsects. there is some overlap - but many diferences.
Street with the Hy6 sounds rather, err, interesting!
Guy is right, you are having way too much fun -- and good on you for that mate!
Well the Hy6/205TCC are really good at making loud clunking obvious sounds. It is amazing how relaxed people are when you are obviously using some kind of retro old fashioned - old guy's camera and standing there unashamedly making snaps....same as using a really cheap looking P&S - looking like a geeky tourist...it is a winning combination -
I was never into 'stealth' shooting- and all that BS.
The product itself is just one small peace of the complete puzzle.
If you want a Hy6, Calumet is selling demos for a really good price. AFi7 with 80mm lens and with Aptus 75S back. They also have several lenses in separate auctions. Get the kit plus 60mm Schneider and 180mm Schneider for a total of $24,800.
Last edited by DougDolde; 8th March 2009 at 08:58.
Whew, that is a low price for the 33mp version and the lens...I paid 3000 less for a new body and a barely used 22mp 54LV...no lens (I already had it). If I had been able to get a 33mp Leaf for that price, I would have jumped on it. I think even the demo of this was over 30,000 when I was in the market.