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Advice about digital close up setup

shlomi

Member
I am trying to create a setup for professional digital close up photography, I was hoping I can get some advice here. The objects are mostly around 1", sometimes up to 1'.

Currently I am using Canon 1Ds3 with 100mm L macro lens, with very nice results, mostly around f/22. Several problems with that:
- DOF sharpness - can't get beyond f/22 on Canon, must combine several shots with different focus points
- AA filter fuzziness - not a huge problem but still
- Some diffraction already at f/22

I tested Mamiya 36X48 sensor with the new Mamiya Digital Macro lens, and the results were very good up to f/32. Appeared to me much better than the Canon.

I am also looking at Rodenstock 120mm f/5.6 Apo-Macro-Sironar digital combined with Horseman LD View Camera for Canon EOS, which should give me a low cost solution with low diffraction at f/22 and full movements to tackle DOF sharpness.

I've tried Hasselblad V system with Phase One back and 135mm Macro lens, and it was not satisfactory - it is my impression that there is no point in even testing any lens which was not especially designed for digital.

Any insights and experience wisdom would be greatly appreciated.
 

T.Karma

New member
I am trying to create a setup for professional digital close up photography, I was hoping I can get some advice here. The objects are mostly around 1", sometimes up to 1'.

Currently I am using Canon 1Ds3 with 100mm L macro lens, with very nice results, mostly around f/22. Several problems with that:
- DOF sharpness - can't get beyond f/22 on Canon, must combine several shots with different focus points
- AA filter fuzziness - not a huge problem but still
- Some diffraction already at f/22

I tested Mamiya 36X48 sensor with the new Mamiya Digital Macro lens, and the results were very good up to f/32. Appeared to me much better than the Canon.

I am also looking at Rodenstock 120mm f/5.6 Apo-Macro-Sironar digital combined with Horseman LD View Camera for Canon EOS, which should give me a low cost solution with low diffraction at f/22 and full movements to tackle DOF sharpness.

I've tried Hasselblad V system with Phase One back and 135mm Macro lens, and it was not satisfactory - it is my impression that there is no point in even testing any lens which was not especially designed for digital.

Any insights and experience wisdom would be greatly appreciated.
Some use the 90mm TS/E for the Canon and say it works fine with tubes for macro. I have not used it myself.

What does not work well is to put a DSLR on a view camera if you intend to work with it, using the digital lenses from Rodenstock or Schneider. Reason is that the mirror box of the DSLR is spacing the sensor away from the lens and you may not get your objects focused. This also limits the movements of the view camera considerably. If you go this way dont use a lens shorter than say 100mm and it may work depending on the setup. However, if you plan also to get infinty focus with this setup and wide angle lenses than forget about it. A digital back is the only solution then.
 

fotografz

Well-known member
What kind of objects, and how are the final results being viewed, and at what size?

The answers to these questions will help determine advice.

-Marc
 

Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
Your 1" to 1' size requirement puts your needs into the "specialized" or at least "dedicated" macro category IMO... I would look seriously at a Mamiya with a bellows unit. The newest Mamiya bellows has an electronic interface cable to allow for adjusting aperture and focus confirmation communications to the body, as well as accommodating lens reversing rings -- and reversed lenses perform better at sub 1:1 magnifications. Also, I would consider adding the older manual bellows as well. Th main benefit to it is it has some limited tilt, swing and shift movements. Both have built-in focusing rails. The downside to the older version is it requires manual lenses so you can set aperture, but the older manual 120 macro is still quite excellent on digital sensors. It is even very easy to adapt dedicated digital macro lenses like the Schneider or Rodenstock 120 by drilling out a body cap to mount the lens in, and a 120 mounted that way on the Mamiya bellows will focus to infinity.

FWIW, the other option for really decent close macro is stacking lenses. If you start with say a zoom, then reverse an 80 on the front of that, your magnification ratio is the focal length of the main lens divided by the focal length of the reversed lens, so an 80 reversed on front of a 150 is almost a 2:1 magnification.

Cheers,
 

fotografz

Well-known member
For a 35mm solution: Nikon D3X and 85/2.8 T/SE Macro (unlike the Canon T/S version, the Nikon is a macro, and is optimized for close focusing).

For a straight MFD Macro: Contax 645 and Zeiss 120/4 Macro with a Phase One P45+ back ... and backing the camera/lens off from the subject to increase DOF (although for internet and smaller print it would still be over-kill IMO).

I'm now using a Hasselblad H4D/40 and a HTS Tilt-Shift unit with a 100mm HC lens for most professional table top macro ... but some of these shots are used quite large for trade show display, etc.

The ultimate in capturing detail from a MFD kit would be a Mutlishot from Hasselblad or Sinar. Strictly a studio set up.

The best is a view camera like the Rollei Xact II or similar and a HD 120 macro from Schneider or Rodenstock using most any Medium Format back. But that would also be substantial over-kill for the applications ... unless you are talking about really big print applications.

-Marc
 

shlomi

Member
What does not work well is to put a DSLR on a view camera if you intend to work with it, using the digital lenses from Rodenstock or Schneider. Reason is that the mirror box of the DSLR is spacing the sensor away from the lens and you may not get your objects focused. This also limits the movements of the view camera considerably. If you go this way dont use a lens shorter than say 100mm and it may work depending on the setup. However, if you plan also to get infinty focus with this setup and wide angle lenses than forget about it. A digital back is the only solution then.
So if I understand you correctly, a 120mm lens with close focus will not be a problem?
 

shlomi

Member
The downside to the older version is it requires manual lenses so you can set aperture, but the older manual 120 macro is still quite excellent on digital sensors.
I have tested the old and new version of Mamiya 120mm with a digital 36x48mm sensor, and there is a very significant difference in sharpness. Based on my testing of various lenses, any lens that might have been considered great in the firm era, is no match to a lens designed with today's knowledge of how to accommodate digital sensors.
 

Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
So if I understand you correctly, a 120mm lens with close focus will not be a problem?
The 120 should focus with that set-up. However, if you plan on sticking with a DSLR, I would in fact use the Nikon 85 PC macro on a high-res body and be done with it...
 

shlomi

Member
The 120 should focus with that set-up. However, if you plan on sticking with a DSLR, I would in fact use the Nikon 85 PC macro on a high-res body and be done with it...
I understand it might be pointless to match this lens with a 35mm body.

I can find decent price used digital backs, but I am having some difficulty finding a movement body with a digital back sliding adapter for under $4500.
 

Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
I understand it might be pointless to match this lens with a 35mm body.

I can find decent price used digital backs, but I am having some difficulty finding a movement body with a digital back sliding adapter for under $4500.
The Mamiya Manual bellows with movements is about $500 on eBay. All you need after that is a basic AFD1 body since you'll be working off a tripod with mirror up and no automation, also about $500 used for a really good one -- so now you've spent $1000 and have a MF body with movements AND close focus capability AND a built-in macro focusing rail (that also does X-Y)!

Next is the lens -- either the 120 digital or a 120 Mamiya manual macro to start -- maybe a little over $500 for the Mamiya lens. You can drill a Mamiya body cap and mount a 120 digitar in it to use on the bellows arrangement (sand the outside surface of the body cap flat first) -- I've done this before and it works great.

Now all you need is a Mamiya mount DB, and could even use a Mamiya ZD back which is really cheap used, like under $3000 for 22 MP nearly full-frame, and really clean ISO 50. Entire set up with Mamiya macro lens still under $5000, or just at $5K with the 120 digitar...

Or you could buy the D700 and the 85 PC.
 

shlomi

Member
The Mamiya Manual bellows with movements is about $500 on eBay. All you need after that is a basic AFD1 body since you'll be working off a tripod with mirror up and no automation, also about $500 used for a really good one -- so now you've spent $1000 and have a MF body with movements AND close focus capability AND a built-in macro focusing rail (that also does X-Y)!
I thought if I wanted to get full movements function I would need a LF body with two plates. With AFD, the sensor is behind a box like a Canon, so the movements will be limited - what am I missing?

Next is the lens -- either the 120 digital or a 120 Mamiya manual macro to start -- maybe a little over $500 for the Mamiya lens.
I could not find a Mamiya 120mm digital for less than $2200. From what I could make out the ones for $500 are non digital.

You can drill a Mamiya body cap and mount a 120 digitar in it to use on the bellows arrangement (sand the outside surface of the body cap flat first) -- I've done this before and it works great.
Do you mean Schneider 120mm f/5.6 Apo Digitar M?
 

T.Karma

New member
I thought if I wanted to get full movements function I would need a LF body with two plates. With AFD, the sensor is behind a box like a Canon, so the movements will be limited - what am I missing?
You are not missing anything, it is the same problem. The improvement is that you now have a better chip, but anyway you will be limited to longer lenses to work with. That is ok as long as you really need only close focus and have smaller objects and close working distance.
Then again, imagine you want to take a large group shot, you will need to step back a long way ... :eek:

Probably the TS lens path for either Nikon or Canon is the safest. Put the rest of the money into excellent light. Any MF view camera solution will be big bucks for sure if you want to do it right.
 

Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
I thought if I wanted to get full movements function I would need a LF body with two plates. With AFD, the sensor is behind a box like a Canon, so the movements will be limited - what am I missing?
You are missing the fact that lens IC's are much larger relatively at close focusing distances (the lens is extended much further forward than for normal infinity focus), plus the fact the movements on the Mamiya bellows are at front of the bellows on the lens flange -- so these two combined mean the cosine "box" effect does not render the same amount of cut-off as with a DSLR mounted on the rear of a view camera.


I could not find a Mamiya 120mm digital for less than $2200. From what I could make out the ones for $500 are non digital.
You don't need a "D" version, just one of the older manual focus versions. In fact, you cannot use a newer version with electronic aperture as you have no way to stop it down on the manual bellows. All of the 120's are the same basic optical formula and quite excellent. There is also an older 80mm Mamiya macro that is very good and inexpensive, and would add flexibility to your kit. Finally, via an adapter, you can mount a Hassy/Zeiss CF 120 Macro as well, another very highly regarded optic for not an unreasonable sum -- though in reality tests between this and the Mamiya 120 show a virtual tie in IQ.

Do you mean Schneider 120mm f/5.6 Apo Digitar M?
Yes, that or the current Rodenstock APO Macro Sironar Digital counterpart -- both are excellent.
 

shlomi

Member
One problem with Nikon PC-E Micro 85mm is that it is only 1:2 - not a full 1:1 macro.
Also with a full res D3X the cost comes up to over $9000, and for that I can get a decent MF/LF setup.
I can test this with a cheap Nikon body, but if I want to charge I would need the 24MP body.

Questions:

- ZD camera vs. AFD+ZD back?

- Rodenstock, Schneider or Mamiya 120mm digital?

- Putting a LF lens on a Mamiya bellows: is there any information that needs to be passed between the camera and the lens or do I set them up separately every time?

I tested Mamiya 120mm digital and non digital, and the results for that one test were conclusive in favor of the digital. Maybe the copies were off, but I would not feel comfortable delving into my wallet for a lens that is not marked digital.
 

Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
then I'll bow out and leave you to your own from here on out. Good luck on whatever route you choose!
 

T.Karma

New member
You are missing the fact that lens IC's are much larger relatively at close focusing distances (the lens is extended much further forward than for normal infinity focus), plus the fact the movements on the Mamiya bellows are at front of the bellows on the lens flange -- so these two combined mean the cosine "box" effect does not render the same amount of cut-off as with a DSLR mounted on the rear of a view camera.

.
I am sure you are right since you have tested it already. The larger image circle however will only account if he takes a larger chip.
 

T.Karma

New member
One problem with Nikon PC-E Micro 85mm is that it is only 1:2 - not a full 1:1 macro.
Also with a full res D3X the cost comes up to over $9000, and for that I can get a decent MF/LF setup.
.

9000 for a decent MF/LF setup including camera, DB, lens, is pretty optimistic I would say. :) If you buy used factor in that not everything will work as you may have imagined from the day one. You may miss a cable here or any stupid accessoire there that is hard to come by. Those little things can drive you nuts. I talking experience here. :ROTFL:
 

Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
I am sure you are right since you have tested it already. The larger image circle however will only account if he takes a larger chip.
No offense intended here at all, just education. The problem with trying to understand all the ramifications if you've never studied the use of cameras with movements is it's easy to "overlook" certain significant optical traits. For example, once you impart any angular movement at the lens-plane (tilt and/or swing on the front standard), the outer edges of your IC are vectored toward sensor center far more rapidly than with any corresponding shift movement, and thus larger IC's become a significant consideration.

Cheers,
 
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