The GetDPI Photography Forum

Great to see you here. Join our insightful photographic forum today and start tapping into a huge wealth of photographic knowledge. Completing our simple registration process will allow you to gain access to exclusive content, add your own topics and posts, share your work and connect with other members through your own private inbox! And don’t forget to say hi!

A few S2 things

Shelby, I understand and respect your situation. My offer to let you shoot my S2 was meant as a fun time. I have always liked your work (e.g., posted in the Sony forum) and thought it could be fun to see what you can do with the S2.
 
Last edited:
S

Shelby Lewis

Guest
OK... not to take over this thread... but I've not been an S2 fan at all. I'm just now starting to see stuff from it I like. I have, however, been a Leica fan for a while (never shot one in my life though). I LOVE Leica's quality esthetic though. They, more than just about anyone, appeal to the camera user in me. The whole idea of "buy the right thing the first time" resonates very strongly with me even though I rarely get the chance to actually buy what I REALLY want.

That in mind... I hope they continue to refine the firmware for the S2 to the point that it becomes everything it can possibly be. I have a feeling the two newer lenses, especially the telephoto, are going to be stellar.

I still feel the whole post-end of things is unresolved... and until that ship tightens up things are still going to be spotty.

Mark, David... I might take you guys up on a shoot. Really. I've said more than my fair piece about the S2. Some of it pretty incredulous (sorry :(). I'd love to get a model to tag along with me and come up to shoot with one and then sit in front of a screen and really see what the handling, ergos, and RAW files are all about.

Thanks Guys...
 
S

Shelby Lewis

Guest
Ah Priorities, Victor... don't you just love them.

ARGGG!!!!

Thanks for the kind comments.
 

xpixel

New member
i have just read the story about the S2 fasion photography in the new LFI magazine. There are some amusing hints:

"Never, never use CaptureOne" with S2 files... he was shooting a red product with a red dress on a red background ... then he rent a hasselblad with a phase one back and all went ok... BUT after using the Adobe RAW converter with the Leica S2 files he compared again and the S2 shoots were a lot better than the Hasselblad/PhaseOne combination :bugeyes:

What irritates me a little are the shots in the magazine.. they are not special (sharpness?!) - check for example this:

http://www.lfi-online.de/ceemes//base.php?webfile/show/3637//__noattachment__=1
 

robmac

Well-known member
xpixel - it's comments like you're referring to that led me cancel my LFI sub some time ago (though they still send me the odd copy).

The 'magazine' is simply far too much, or simply too blatant, in-your-face fanboyism - even by brand-specific 'magazine' standards. By contrast I love 'Victor' - it's advertising of course, but unlike LFI, it's not a print version of LUF.

The editors also seem to have a love affair with the 60's slide-film look -- and the odder (or blander) the image the better. Rare that I've ever seen an image in LFI that made a good marketing-centric impression on me.

I'm not up on the specific LFI-Leica relationship re: ownership, but 'independent' or not, they in effect serve as an arms-length (it's not official Leica commentary) 'in your face' advertising tool for Leica.

On your sample image xpixel - I agree. It's a horrid selling point and I don't think up to what the camera (or any MFDB) can do. The fact its' processed 8 ways from Xmas isn't helping matters. Reminds me of the bland, 'yeah, so..' female-boxer-in-Cuba shots they started the S2 promos with (which they STILL keep on the website).

IF the camera is selling as well as some would like/believe/hope, there should be an decent installed base of users by now. If so, they need to pressure Leica to 'do a Hassy' and get a blog/gallery rolling showcasing actual user images that to do the thing justice - and keep any childish and catty comments, even tangential, about competitors for LUF. Just the images and the tech info/lighting setup.

Sell your own product on it's own merits - bad mouthing the competition, even when done (not so) subtly like the C1/Adobe comments in LFI, just lowers you in the eyes of any intelligent bystander.

Even if the comments, when you cut thru the spin, are technically accurate, it just makes you come across as defensive - and only caters to existing fans/customers vs any potential new ones of any intelligence. Have noticed Bron, whose gear I have every reason to like, in their blog doing the same with Profoto more and more - and Paul Buff from AB doing it ad naseum with anyone gear other than AB on the FM lighting forum. Not cool.
 
Last edited:

gogopix

Subscriber
Hmmm. I always figured LFI was NOT owned by Leica since they had some pretty nice articles that were NOT just ads.

Like they say, don't look a gift horse in the mouth!

Now, what does frost me is say Motor Trend Magazine- they are owned by GM aren't they? (or is Ford?):p

On the C1 business, I believe some here have suggested Phase specifically tunes C1 to do nasty things with S2 files to keep thyem from competing with their backs. No one seems to have 'clean hands' anymore.

Ah well, the modern world
 

robmac

Well-known member
No idea on ownership of LFI - but it might as well be Leica owned. That said, if they were, they'd probably tone it down a bit.

On C1 - as much as it might flatter 'some' people, I personally don't think Phase could be bothered to tweak C1 to 'poison' S2 files. No more so than Adobe , has as yet, made any effort to tweak LR massage the best out of them - the sales volume numbers don't (as yet) warrant the man/hr effort. Why Leica doesn't have a room full of folks churning them out (customized LR profiles) is another matter.

Nice tech, but sadly I believe now what I believed the day of the announcement - unless Leica gets off the stick and PUSHES this thing with Marketing muscle (inclduing customer samples) and turbo charges their glacial product-line roll-out, it will simply get steamrolled out of the purchasing equation of the majority of non Leica-fan buyers as other players keep presenting new tech and increasingly tempting pricing policies at a quicker and quicker pace.

Getting an impartial player to switch from their existing platform, which is already depreciating like a rock off a cliff but is also a known low-risk entity that delivers great files, into a higher risk platform like the S2 will take Leica making a serious effort to resoundingly answer the big question they all have - "why should I?".

So far, from what I've seen they've yet to do that. The fallacy of "build it and they shall come" is as accurate today as it was when first coined.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Hmmm. I always figured LFI was NOT owned by Leica since they had some pretty nice articles that were NOT just ads.

Like they say, don't look a gift horse in the mouth!

Now, what does frost me is say Motor Trend Magazine- they are owned by GM aren't they? (or is Ford?):p

On the C1 business, I believe some here have suggested Phase specifically tunes C1 to do nasty things with S2 files to keep thyem from competing with their backs. No one seems to have 'clean hands' anymore.

Ah well, the modern world
Not sure who have may even thought of that one is absolutely the worst thing I have read. The S2 came out C1 version did not change when it did. It sucks than as it does now since DNG is seen as just another generic profile. The S2 has no profile for it with C1 from day one and most likely will never have one. Making a color profile will do no good as well. Artifacts and over sharpening will still occur plus other artifacts. Leica went to bed with Adobe and if there is any answer for the S2 files it will lie most likely there. Raw developer can work with them and I hear Phocus will also. Have to see what that will bring.

Leica needs to seriously develop there very own software which IMHO is the best solution at this point for there S2. Now if I hear it is all contained in the DNG wrapper and needs no special software again from the marketing of this thing than i think they are sadly mistaken. I'm being very kind here in my words.

No matter how the cheese is sliced the loss of C1 with the S2 is a major loss to Leica. Does not matter who is at fault the fault is it needs dedicated profiles and software just like any other digital back to get the very best out of it on a Pro level. Read that very carefully
 

narikin

New member
I'm no expert on the currency markets but I would have thought that the recent (and substantial) drop in value of the Euro vs $US should have afforded Leica an opportunity to drop their prices and stimulate sales. I do like those images that xpixels has been posting lately. Not sure I can put it into words but they are special.
yeah, the S2 is substantially cheaper in Europe now.
anyone in the US would be something like $4000+ better off buying it there and having it shipped over.
Leica need to re-adjust their prices, or do a rebate program (or a kit with a lens?)
 

stephengilbert

Active member
LFI is published by IDC Corporate Publishing GmbH, who also publish Victor Magazine. Unlike Motor Trend, which is clearly pro-car, LFI is pro-Leica.

I doubt any car company ever owned Motor trend. I'm sure it's enough that they spent scads of money on ads. But not enough lately: the latest story I've seen is that they declared bankruptcy last year and the largest shareholder is Citibank. (Serves them right.)
 
...Leica needs to seriously develop there very own software which IMHO is the best solution at this point for there S2. Now if I hear it is all contained in the DNG wrapper and needs no special software again from the marketing of this thing than i think they are sadly mistaken. I'm being very kind here in my words.

No matter how the cheese is sliced the loss of C1 with the S2 is a major loss to Leica. Does not matter who is at fault the fault is it needs dedicated profiles and software just like any other digital back to get the very best out of it on a Pro level. Read that very carefully
In my opinion, Leica does not need to develop their own software and I really hope they don't. This is not coming from a marketing type - it is coming from a customer who valued Leica's approach to not require camera specific software. I think Leica would be better served by working hard to develop S2 camera specific profiles for the various commercially available raw conversion software. Camera profiles should be much easier to do than a whole software package. I would much prefer Leica spend more time and energy developing cameras and lenses instead of software. In addition to Leica, I also shoot other camera brands and I don't want to use different raw conversion software for each brand of camera. Being able to use the same software for all of my cameras is a big plus for me.

Also, I don't see Leica's choice to not depend on C1 as a "major loss" as you put it. I know you are a fan of C1 and I was too for approximately 5 years, but now I prefer Lightroom. I really appreciate the fact that Leica designed the S2 camera and lenses so "I" can chose which software to use.

Guy, I respect your opinion, but, in this case, my opinion is different. Difference in opinions are what makes it possible for different manufacturers to stay in business and offer different products. That is a good thing.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Mark lets point out a few things almost every cam has dedicated software even Nikon and Canon. Hassy and Phase do within there programs. Now my reasoning is very simple and i know this all too well. Just for example bring a Phase file in LR and it is not very good at all and the same with Hassy files will always be better in Phocus. The point here is the software is finely tuned and dedicated to that sensor. This takes in many things that simply are overlooked or other programs can't do. It is not just about a better profile but a completely written program that squeezes every drop out of those files. This is in regard to tonal range, sharpness, noise, DR, color, color tone, corrections if needed, exif data, tethering, color editors, styles and the list goes on. Secondly if your going to spend that kind of money and all your competitors are providing dedicated software than they will have the advantage. Trust me there is nothing special whatsoever about a DNG file. It was a good concept from Adobe but almost all OEM's said sorry to bad we want our own and we want to put our own special sauce in our files.

Now sure one can say it is a open format and any program can process it but it will never ever be as good as a dedicated software program BUILT for that cam and there algorithms and firmware. Example just noise control alone my Phase files as Sooooooooo much better in C1 than in LR or any other program. To me this kind of reasoning is on a Professional level that takes us past the general processing routines and profiles made for cams. Honestly IMHO this is where men go to work and the boys go play.

Also don't you think you deserve a dedicated software to squeeze every drop out of the money you spent on it when everyone around you has there dedicated software. Maybe better said in all this it uses generic raw processing. Also from what I seen and by your own tests barrel distortion and light falloff and you don't have corrections for that when the OEM says this stuff is built into the design. Maybe it is and i believe they did BUT I did not see that.

Just look at the M9 which IMHO looks far better from a C1 file than a LR files. Not saying C1 is the king of the roast but if your seeing differences coming from different programs than your not getting consistent or tuned images from the sensor. This is what Phocus for Hassy and C1 for Phase, Leaf Capture for Leaf, Sinar not sure of the name are all about. Even Nikon people see differences with Nikon Capture over other programs and Canon red(Color) has always been better out of DPP than any other program. Although this may have changed.

Now lets be clear I love Leica products and owned many but I have always seen different quality coming from different software packages and after extensive testing the S2 is no different just like any other cam. For Leica to succeed with this S2 program they can't be like any other cam out there and be generic. Anyway I agree we certainly may have different opinions on this which is great but I will not buy into this system if I can't squeeze every drop out of that sensor with processing. Everything so far I have seen is a compromise between DR, Color artifacts , over sharpening, color , tone etc etc. Sure you can get one program and get the best you can think out of it but do you really know what you might be leaving behind.
 

xpixel

New member
btw.. there is a new S2 s-system lens voucher. exchange your existing lens for a new lens with a central shutter for the price difference... cool..:)
 

fotografz

Well-known member
I do have to agree that I'm still waiting to see something compelling from the S2. I just don't see anything special about it at all compared to Phase or Hassey's contemporary offerings. And this is coming from a person with as much sunk into Leica M9 stuff as in MFD. I'm a huge Leica fanboy and always have been. I know the look when I see it.

I've tried to track down as many S2 user images as I can, and being a new system there aren't many. Of what I have seen, there's a fair amount of that old slide film look, or like those Cuba launch images ... which looks like an action I have in Photoshop. Where are some images that aren't over-cooked so we can see what this pup can do?

While I am an avid Lightroom user, I am so for reasons of time and centralized control when processing copious quantities of wedding images ... but do not delude myself that I'm extracting all I can from my files. All of my studied commercial work is done with dedicated software because the results are more proprietary profile critical.

If Leica is to stay with LR ... and that could be a good thing ... then it will require some pretty sophisticated profiles be provided to Adobe ... probably lens specific if Leica could get over their marketing denial that the lenses are less than perfect.

-Marc
 

David K

Workshop Member
While I am an avid Lightroom user, I am so for reasons of time and centralized control when processing copious quantities of wedding images ... but do not delude myself that I'm extracting all I can from my files. All of my studied commercial work is done with dedicated software because the results are more proprietary profile critical.
-Marc
This is true for me on a non-professional level too... and I'll take it a bit further by saying I also don't kid myself that I'm extracting all I can from my gear. I'm reminded of the famous gambler Amarillo Slim who beat Minnesota Fats at pool with a broom handle and Bobby Riggs at ping pong with a skillet. I think a lot of us would get more bang for the buck out of a good workshop.
 

tjv

Active member
Interesting to see Erwin Putts' new article on the S2 lenses. Take or leave his "opinion" but he thinks they are a "quantum leap" in quality compared to other brands, and even better than the comparable M series lenses. Makes me wonder if software really is to blame for average (in class) file quality. Then again, maybe he hasn't actually measured the competitions equivalent focal lengths...
 

tashley

Subscriber Member
I gotta say I really liked the glass I had on mine and I hope I made it clear at the time that in general I thought the S2 was really really good - it answered nearly all of my needs apart from T/S, which we are led to believe is in the works. As Jack says, I had sensor issues and after three different cameras each with their own 'issues' on that front, I gave up just because I needed a working system I could trust. But since then there has been no hint whatsoever that my experience was other than 'early adopter's risk'.

$64k question is, 'would I go back' given that in the meantime I've upgraded to P65+, the new Phamy body and the nice new LS studio lens.

Hmmm...

If Lecia had the T/S lens out and it was good, I really think I might...I'd be giving up a bunch of pixels that I rarely need and regaining quite a lot of things I really liked a lot...
 
Top