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arashm

Member
Why not do like Burtynsky does and shoot film? Depending on what you want to shoot you can get a LOT more megapixels drum scanning MF or 4X5 (he shoots Linhof and Mamiya 6/7 I believe). Unless you are doing lots of production and commercial work MFD seems to be an expensive path to go down.
Just as an FYI Ed Brutynsky has moved on to the H4D-50 currently while waiting for the H4D-60.
Looks like everyone eventually slides down the slope :eek:
am
 
D

DougDolde

Guest
"1. This may sound insane, but I wonder whether 40MP are enough if one wants to print say 1.5mx1.8 meters (60”x70”). How much would one gain if one goes to 50 or 60MP? (I know one gains 25% and 50% more pixels but what difference does that make as regards the print)?"

That's a very big print. I'd want nothing less than a P65 if I was printing that big. Even then you're only getting about 100 dpi without any upsizing. But I only print 24x30 so the 33 megapixels of my Aptus 75S is plenty.
 

ptomsu

Workshop Member
In practice I found that 40MP are far enough to produce stunning prints even larger than 2m x 1.5m.

Have done numerous of these from my X5 scanner (approx. 40MP in highest res) as well as my H3D39.

Of course more is always better. But in the final print - even if it is high quality - nobody will see the difference.

Just my 5c experience :)

PS: actually I asked the similar question last year several times in different fora and nobody could really give an answer to that :cool:
 
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GMB

Active member
Many thanks to all of your for having taken the time to provide such thoughtful responses. This is really helpful and shows what a great forum this is.

I did use C1 in the past (it came with my M8) but then switched to LR (even before getting the M9) mostly because I found it much more convenient to manage your files. Also, LR allowed you to print without first having to develop your Raw file. I frankly don't think that switching back to C1 using Phocus would be such a big deal.

I will take a hard look at how one would use a Hassy back on a tech camera because I sense that sooner or later I will head down that route for certain things I want to shoot. I know that it is likely to be very slow but I think it will also be a rather rewarding process of taking images. However, I guess I better take one step after the other and get used to MF first.

I will certainly also reflect a bit more about the advantages / disadvantages of leaf shutter lenses but from what I read so far I don't think that will be the decisive factor.

I liked the suggestion by vsadov to get the S2 and the Hassy :D. However, that's not only financially crazy but I also won't have the time to use both systems appropriately. I also do not intend to give up the M9 as my walk-around and travel camera (because I actually think it is damm good!).

Georg
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Interesting read for sure. Not sure i can add anything but I certainly would buy my P40+ again in a heart beat. Now having a Epson 7900 printer on hand, I can confirm 24 x30 are just flat out amazing from the P40+ as a single capture and could easily jump up to 44 x 60 or so size and i have printed several pano stitches fairly big that seem to never end on the IQ side. I'm extremely happy with those panos now going really really big I'm just not sure how a single capture would compare but I know a stitch would get there. This is big stuff but my educated guess and what I have seen so far off my printer it is 40 mpx or more but as mentioned if i printed that big everyday than a P65 would be in my sights. Now if using a tech camera was the main use no question I would go Phase since it is easier and more efficient in the field with internal battery but thats me and i also like c1 and if I had a M9 also it would even more confirm my choice for a Phase back. See my M9 review but I always used and loved my Leica files out of c1 much more than LR. I'm a firm believer in dedicated software and outside of that i am gun shy on these generic raw processors like LR . They are good but nothing beats dedicated software tuned to the back. Here your choices are Phocus, Phase , Leaf Capture and Sinars software. 4 backs with dedicated software to there backs.
If your serious about MF than i would put LR more on the back burner and think dedicated software to these backs so pick very wisely. Nothing will process a Hassy file better than Phocus and the same with Phase nothing will process a Phase file better than C1 this I can guarantee you.
 

GMB

Active member
Finally, as a friendly suggestion, you may consider getting S2 as well. You see, S2 is really a better camera to take along for a walk. It is noticeably lighter, it is very pleasant to shoot with, it is much less conspicuous: just like another DSLR. "Both" lenses are very good, I hope that the 35mm one is as good. To go on a trip, I will probably choose S2 over Hassy every time. For a studio shot, I'd pick up Hassy.

Crazy enough?
Well, during a business trip earlier this week I went to a shop which had both the Hassy and the S2. No offense to any one, but compared to the S2 the Hassy is a pretty ugly bitch:thumbdown:. In fact, while getting both is absolutely no option, I am seriously reconsidering my position vis-a-vis the S2. Interestingly, when I asked the dealer which of the two cameras he would get, he immediately pointed to the S2, because of what he considered the better glass and the better ergonomics (and he had shot the Hassy on many occasions and said that this was clearly an outstanding camera) . He also offered to arrange a shoot where I could shoot both cameras (as well as my M9) and to compare prints and not only on the screen. I certainly will take up that offer.

For the time being, I could live with a system that has the 70mm and the 35 mm + (soon) the 120 for portraits and macro. Sure, a really wide would be nice but I can wait and until then do some stitching.

There is of course the issue of costs, and this is an issue not be neglected. Each S2 lens is about 2-3k Euros more expensive than the Hassy lenses, and there also are no promotions.

OTOH, life is too short to not have the camera you enjoy most:). I do not have to make money with shooting and I do not have a customer to please, so having fun using the camera is an important factor for me. And from all I have read and seen, it is rather my (limited) ability as a photographer which will be the limiting factor of the image quality rather than the camera. Bot the S2 and the Hassy (as well as the Phase) are surely capable of producing excellent results.

Georg

PS: It is interesting that both the dealer I visited as well as another dealer I called had sold several S2. In other words, there seem to be quite a few S2 shooter out there but they do not seem to be posting either here or on the LUF. Too bad--I would love to see more results.
 

docmoore

Subscriber and Workshop Member
the review Jack and I did on the S2 but hopefully it will give you some more insight on it.
Not to muddy the waters but after reading the review that Guy and Jack did I lost a bit of interest in the S2.

As far a a camera to walk around with...Here are a few shots from my OLD OLD OLD H3D II 39 ( almost embarrassed to mention it! )

First is ISO 400



Next ISO 800



Bridge



Old Oak



Reflections



Bob
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Georg a small bit of advice and I will take some heat for this so no offense to any dealer out there. But here is the scenario you walk into a dealer and point to product A than point to Product B than ask the dealer which one to buy. I can assure you they will point to the one that cost more most times than not. It's called a commission and the MORE you spend the more money goes into his pocket. Just ask any car salesman working on commission. Now obviously there are dealers that are not like that and I don't know your dealer at all or even what name they go by. Just be careful on what you put your faith in. Do your own testing and do your own processing of the files to see what works best for you. What I buy or what anyone else buy's on this forum is not always going to help you and your style.

I think you owe yourself some homework and trying these things out before making that decision. Not only does this forum have this subtitle "Abandon Hope All Ye Who Enter Here." (Dante)

It also has the biggest underlining one and that is Try before you Buy.
 

docmoore

Subscriber and Workshop Member
I can assure you they will point to the one that cost more most times than not. It's called a commission and the MORE you spend the more money goes into his pocket.
My dealer .... who sold me the H3D II 39 has a love affair with the Leica S2.....unrelated to the quality of the final output. Hasselblad has dumped on their dealers and their sales reps. more than once. Leica has cultivated relationships with dealers...so they tend to gravitate to the product that feels right...more a reflection at times of relationship than commission.

In spite of this the other medium format backs and systems may offer a marginally better file. Buyer beware...after the initial excitement has wained one is left with a long term relationship. Pick a full system or the promise of a system down the road.

Bottom line is what you are comfortable with...to whom do you want to give your money? As much as I love my M8.2 I have not been convinced that the S2 represents the best of Leica and its heritage....maybe with a better processor, more lenses and an adequate raw file processor it will begin to approach its true potential. So are you a beta tester or not?

The fact that the majority of the pros here have resisted the call of the S2 makes one hesitate. Best file wins...not sure it is in Leica's corner at the present time.

Bob
 

GMB

Active member
Not sure you read the review Jack and I did on the S2 but hopefully it will give you some more insight on it.

http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12243
Guy, ask my wife, who thinks I am spending my entire time reading S2 and other reviews:ROTFL:. The one you and Jack produced was particularly helpful. But correct me if I am wrong, I think that you and Jack came out the way that there are basically two main issues: (1) system not yet complete and (2) no dedicated software. (1) is not a problem form me and (2) I will have to see but I am pretty sure it will be solved sooner rather than later and that there will be dedicated LR profiles.

Other issues are (3) costs; (4) no ability to use on tech cam; (5) sensor cleaning; (6) cost of back up.

(6) is a non-issue for me and (3), (4), and (5) have to be weighed against the benefits.

Also, i do not currently have a MF system so for me it is a fresh start. Sure, my considerations would be different were I sitting on a cam, a back, and tons of glass from Phase or Hassy or whoever.

Georg a small bit of advice and I will take some heat for this so no offense to any dealer out there. But here is the scenario you walk into a dealer and point to product A than point to Product B than ask the dealer which one to buy. I can assure you they will point to the one that cost more most times than not. It's called a commission and the MORE you spend the more money goes into his pocket. Just ask any car salesman working on commission. Now obviously there are dealers that are not like that and I don't know your dealer at all or even what name they go by.
I am glad you qualified your statement. I think talking to a dealer for almost an hour, knowing about the shop and its philosophy allows you to judge whether the dealer is in for the quick buck or whether he is there to offer honest and serious advice. Also, he offered to set up a shoot for me and not only show me the results on the screen but actually print them.

What I buy or what anyone else buy's on this forum is not always going to help you and your style.

I think you owe yourself some homework and trying these things out before making that decision. Not only does this forum have this subtitle "Abandon Hope All Ye Who Enter Here." (Dante)

It also has the biggest underlining one and that is Try before you Buy.
And that's what I will do. And to give some comfort to those who prefer Phase, I will try to try out this system as well--if on only Phase One Germany in Cologne would either pick up the phone when I call or at least return my emails. To bad that they have such a poor dealer network over here (there are only 3 distributers listed for Germany :thumbdown: compared to at least a dozen for Hassy (and the one close to where I live is Phase One Germany in Cologne).
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Yep, already owning a complete MFD system, and starting from scratch are two completely different scenarios. However, it points up that if a swap where to happen, then you get really serious about whether you would gain or lose anything in IQ. Emotions run high about these MFD choices, but when you are laying out YOUR big wade of cash, things get really personal and sober. This is true for any ultra-expensive system swap, not just swapping out for an S2.

This emphasizes the need to try before you buy. However, there is even a caveat to that trial exploration ... both big players in this field, Hassey and Phase/Leaf, have proprietary software which is widely acknowledged as being part and parcel of the system to achieve the best IQ. IMO, it is VERY difficult to properly utilize these software solutions in a quick cursory examination unless you have prior mastery of them. Once at least partially mastered, these software solutions are as important (if not more important) than the camera system itself.

So, complete, relatively unbiased reviews like the one Jack and Guy did are absolutely invaluable.

As to dealers, again, almost as important as the hardware. The best bet may be to locate previous buyers of any given system in YOUR area and see what their service experiences have been. Not some brand new buyer that will justify their recent purchase decision, but someone that's been a user for some time (it need not be a user of the latest-greatest version either .... service is service, and at some time in future what you buy today will NOT be the latest-greatest). That may be more difficult with a new system like the S2 for two reasons ... 1) there are fewer users and they haven't had the camera very long ... 2) Leica could well concentrate on any issues like crazy during the Honeymoon phase of the new launch .... but long term service support and updates is what you really need to know.

In the end I didn't want to be a beta tester for the camera system, and more importantly I didn't want to be an alpha tester for the service .... which has been less than stellar in the past with Leica's flagship bread & butter product ... the M. Could well be a completely different story with the S2, but I'll let someone else find that out.

-Marc
 

KurtKamka

Subscriber Member
Interesting discussion. It'd be interesting to find out how large the software development teams are for the 'proprietary' systems. Size does not necessarily equate to results ... but it does point to the availability of resources and best practices learned as an organization to move solutions forward. While one can't discount the effort, passion and dedication each 'proprietary' team puts into the software products that support those medium format solutions, I'm not certain that it is fair to so easily dismiss the efforts a company like Adobe may put into fine-tuning a software solution for cameras linked to its products.

Kurt
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Interesting discussion. It'd be interesting to find out how large the software development teams are for the 'proprietary' systems. Size does not necessarily equate to results ... but it does point to the availability of resources and best practices learned as an organization to move solutions forward. While one can't discount the effort, passion and dedication each 'proprietary' team puts into the software products that support those medium format solutions, I'm not certain that it is fair to so easily dismiss the efforts a company like Adobe may put into fine-tuning a software solution for cameras linked to its products.

Kurt
Kurt, I am on record as an avid fan of PS and LR ... but to date I personally find it quite easy to question Adobe efforts compared to C1 and Phocus who are dedicated to their product's synergistic performance on a competitive scale with-in their market segment. IMO, Adobe has less motivation to ramp up brain power for such a small amount of users.

Besides, who knows better all the little aspects that allow you to squeeze every bit of IQ possible out of a MFD system? The designer/maker of the system, or an uninvolved 3rd party?

This is especially true if you shoot tethered ... which a huge amount of MFD users do.

That said, I would LOVE to use just Lightroom and PS for all processing from all my different cameras. Lightroom in particular sets the standard for speed and
inter-face with PS ... neither of which can be used when shooting tethered.

-Marc
 

David K

Workshop Member
Size does not necessarily equate to results ...
Kurt
This has certainly been my experience with the Sinar files which could previously be converted with a tiny little program called Brumbaer tools. Also, Raw Developer, authored by Brian Griffith, is widely regarded as a top notch converter albeit with a somewhat less than ideal workflow.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Well it's not like Adobe is bad in any way and lets be clear of that also. It does come down to can Adobe take every camera it supports and fine tune for each one. Now things like noise, tonal range, DR etc etc. are not always easy to make for each and every type of file. I know Phase files look like crap and Hassy files fall short in some area's as well. Plus we get dedicated corrections for each lens in our systems. Even the 70mm S2 lens as we have seen here on the forum was distorting and had some falloff. And this is there marketing that corrections are built in, well maybe the are but we are seeing differently. Not saying Leica is telling us something it has not done but we go by results and I have tried everything with my Phase files and honestly nothing comes close .

I know Marc uses LR for his hassy files for his weddings but I think he will be the first to tell you it is more out of convenience of grouping all his image from different cams together. But for his Ad work he is using Phocus to draw the best out of those files or make corrections he can't do in LR.

LR is a good program but it is also considered a generic program to process every thing thrown at it and it does do a good job, the question remains how much are you leaving behind. In the case of the S2 it is better than C1 right now and that may change. But it still is not perfect and if Leica did make a dedicated raw , tethering software ala C1 for it's S2 than it would most likely be the best package for it's files. I can attest with convection nothing is better with a Phase file than C1 NOTHING.

Now going back to Georg's situation and for the hobbyist that has time to wait and does not have pressure on it to perform to its max and a system that can build sure it is a great cam to buy. But it has a couple downsides that people need to understand. In this case Georg seems to understand some of them and that is good. Personally for me and my experience not to mention as a honest shoot from the hip kind of guy , I want folks to understand all of this without prejudice before they start unfolding there wad of cash. I get those oh **** i bought the wrong system e-mails and i should have paid attention more to what you guys are saying comments. Frankly love the folks e-mailing me but this is a e-mail i would rather not see in the first place if you know what I mean.
From my seat and my dedication to this industry, I just want people walking in with eyes fully opened and knowing exactly what they are getting before the shop door opens in the morning to go purchase.
That is why this forum is so great , we have members that care about other members and offer that guidance.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Now I should talk about the dealer issue I brought up and to clarify a little. I have a awesome dealer in Capture Integration and they actually sell both the S2 and Phase gear. Now from my personal experience these are the kind of dealers you want to work with, they care what you buy, support what you buy and also give you the chance to try and evaluate what you want to buy before you do buy. Plus all that they are great all around folks. I use there name as an example of what you should look for and the end of the day as a Pro i want someone watching my back and I have turned to them when in need and the are there for me. My reference was more to the Mom and Pop place where money is king and hopefully you won't come back and complain kind of place. You get the idea


BTW great discussion folks
 
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