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Almost ready to take the plunge..

GMB

Active member
I have been lurking around here for quite a while and a few months already once indicated that I might be prepared to jump into the MFDB world. Guy warned me and reminded me of the subtitle of this forum—but to no avail :ROTFL:.

I am not a professional and I don’t intend to make a living out of photography. It’s a hobby and my day job fortunately allows me to indulge in some nice gear. I shoot mostly travel, landscape (including seascapes and cityscapes), some abstracts, and portraits of friends and family. May main system is the Leica M (first M8 and now M9).

The reason I want to go into MFDB is that I like big prints, in particular if they are sharp and reveal a lot of detail. I find the size adds a totally different dimension to the visual impact of certain photos. For example, I was fascinated by the visual impact of some Burtinsky and Ronald Fisher prints (I know that they are not only strong because they are big but also because these are dammed good photographers, but their large prints have a very different impact than the same print but smaller).

I looked at the various systems available and I think I am decided to go fort the H4D40 unless it turns out that I have an issue with the ergonomics of that camera (I live in Brussels and, believe it or not, there is no Hassi dealer in the capital of Europe :thumbdown:, so I still need to make the trip to Antwerp or Paris). I thought about the P1 40+ but I think I’d prefer the H4D. I find the True Focus and also the TS adapter pretty nifty and innovative concepts. I also thought hard about the S2 and in the beginning was thinking/hoping that that could be the right system. But then there are simply too many issues with that camera and while money is not the key driver behind my decision-making, the lenses (if and when available) are simply in a different price league altogether.

I would not be posting this if there were not still a few issues on which I hope to get some guidance from the collective wisdom of this forum.

1. This may sound insane, but I wonder whether 40MP are enough if one wants to print say 1.5mx1.8 meters (60”x70”). How much would one gain if one goes to 50 or 60MP? (I know one gains 25% and 50% more pixels but what difference does that make as regards the print)?
2. I am inclined to now go for the H4D40 and then decide on a upgrade if and when I think it does not have enough MP. Any reason why that could be a stupid idea?
3. I have used a Nodal Ninja 5 for the Leica. Have some of you used it with a Hassy or P1 and what was your experience?
4. What lens set up could you recommend?
• I am inclined to get the 28 for landscape but I wonder whether it could be to wide as the sole landscape lens.
• What is the best portrait lens? I am looking for something with a large format like transition from focus to out of focus area (a bit similar to the 75 lux for the M9) (I have seen some shots by David Farkas with the 70mm on the S2 who had that look and that almost made me revisit my decision as regards the S2).
• What could you recommend for macro work (flowers etc.)?
• Finally, how useful / good are the zooms? For those who have them, how often and for what applications do you use them. FYI, before moving to the M system a few years ago, I was shooting almost only zooms for many years and giving up zooms was one of my main worries. Now I don’t miss them and often go out with only one lens to keep things simple.


5. I am also still asking myself the question whether I should go for tech camera rather than a Hassi or P1 camera. What advantage as regards image quality does a tech camera have over the Hassi (other than that it allows tilt and shift)? Can you get something like this with a Hassi (in particular number 3 and 4) http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/newthread.php?do=newthread&f=10?

Sorry for asking so many questions and many thanks in advance for your help.
 

David Klepacki

New member
Your questions about MP/resolution with regard to printing cannot be answered without knowing your target print resolution. How much resolution do you wish to see in the print and at what viewing distance? Without knowing this basic and essential information, you are basically "lost". There is a big difference in required resolution and MP between a 60x70 print viewed at 20 feet versus being viewed at 10 inches. Of course, it also depends on how much detail you wish to capture. There are many beautiful images with almost no high resolution detail (e.g., some sunrises/sunsets over water or mountains) and are all about the color tonality, and not the resolution. Does your photographic style demand high resolution or maybe not?

As for your lens questions, there is not enough space here to address what you perceive to be a "simple" question. There is no "best" lens, period. Every lens has a distinct signature and a useful purpose. Photographers sometimes like old lenses, often hazy, out of alignment and even scratched, just because they give a very unique look. Most amateurs buy lenses according to published MTF specs and seek out the highest contrast lenses, and later ask themselves why their pictures still don't look great (since they tend to shoot in high contrast lighting situations, e.g. bright sun). So, you really have to understand what you want to shoot, at what distances, and under what lighting conditions. There is a good reason why most photographers need to carry an assortment of lenses on an assignment.

Lastly, you seem to have identified a H4D as a possible camera for you. While it is a very good camera system, it does have limitations. One of the most critical is shutter speed range. Are you aware that the H4D body does not have any shutter, and that the shutters are part of the lenses, and that the maximum shutter speed is 1/800? The latest P1 645DF and Leica S2 camera systems offer shutters in their bodies (as well as lenses with shutters) with speeds up to 1/4000. This exposure range capability may be more important to you than something like "TrueFocus" or TS.
 

GMB

Active member
David--Many thanks.

On MP resolution: Fair point. I probably need to reflect more on this. I think I am somewhere between 10 inches and 20 feet distance. More close to the 3-6 feet distance.

On the lens question, I think I specified what I am looking for. I am shooting under a variety of light natural light situations; i.e., no studio set up. As I said, I like the 75 lux for the M9 wide open, which tends to be on the soft side (unless stepped down). But for some situations I also like the more contrasty lenses. So may be one portrait lens won't do.

I knew that the H4D has no shutter and that the shutters are part of the lenses but I had indeed not focused on the 1/800 limit of the shutter speed. For the Leica I like the higher speed, in particular as it allows me shoot fast lenses wide open in bright light. I would be interested in hearing from Hassi users whether they consider the 1/800 to be a constraint.
 
V

vsadov

Guest
GMB, sounds like we have some in common :)

H4D40 you are considering is has a different aspect ratio 4:3 compared to 3:2 of Leica.
This is a consideration not only for your composition style but also when trying to extrapolate from your M9 experience regarding focal length. It seems that very roughly, the 75mm lux would correspond to 95mm something. The closest HC lens is the 100mm f2.2. This is a lovely lens indeed, for outdoors in particular.

The "standard" 80mm f2.8 HC lens is very light and small, by MF standards that is. On H4D40 it would be somewhat similar to 65mm on M9: right in between 50mm and 75mm.

I do not know if you use flash. Actually, if you move into MF, I suspect you might end up using it quite a bit, for portraits at least. My favorite lens for that is HC 120mm macro lens. It is very, very sharp so one needs to decide if that's a desired quality for a particular subject. Some ladies might be upset if they see the unprocessed photos.

For the wide end, HC 28mm is roughly 21mm on M9. In conjunction with Phocus it produces truly nice results. For me, getting this lens was a no-brainer. It is also surprisingly light. MF light that is.

I have no experience with the zooms. I did order the 35-90mm, it is coming next week.
By all accounts it handles much better than the older 50-110mm and may even be a bit better in IQ, at least on H4D40. It remains to be seen if H4D40 with the zoom can be a viable walking camera.

Finally, as a friendly suggestion, you may consider getting S2 as well. You see, S2 is really a better camera to take along for a walk. It is noticeably lighter, it is very pleasant to shoot with, it is much less conspicuous: just like another DSLR. "Both" lenses are very good, I hope that the 35mm one is as good. To go on a trip, I will probably choose S2 over Hassy every time. For a studio shot, I'd pick up Hassy.

Crazy enough?
 

Stuart Richardson

Active member
Hi GMB -- I just thought I would address your question on print size. I have a small photo lab and printing service. I recently printed some exhibition prints for a local museum. They were taken from 35mm and 6x9cm film, and printed to 1m by 80cm. These were photos taken in the 70s on much grainier film than we now have. The 6x9 looked great and the 35mm looked fine. Certainly grainy, but fine. I know this is not what you asked, but my point would be to say that 40mp is more than enough to print to as big as you want. More megapixels will mean more detail, but you have to think about how much really matters, particularly to anyone but yourself. 99% of people would not notice a difference between say a 18-24mp DSLR and a 60mp MFDB assuming technique is good. Sure, they might notice the difference if you stand behind them pointing out the difference in dynamic range and depth of field etc (after you explained what they are!), but the point is that all current pro cameras are good enough to print huge when used correctly. More MP is more resolution, but you get to a point where the normal viewing distance of the print is far enough away that difference in MP is only apparent when you are right up next to the print. I am not saying MFDB is not worth it, or you should stick with 35mm -- just that having enough resolution for large prints is the least of your worries. I think you are better off worrying about how solid your tripod is and what the best apertures are for your lenses rather than about whether 40mp versus 50-60mp is enough.
 

David K

Workshop Member
First off let me say that Guy gave you some good advice about not starting down the slope but if you've made your decision to come to MF land I think it's an awfully good time to enter. Having said that, it's not easy for an MF newbie to make the right choice. (Just look at how many systems Guy has gone through before finding happiness with his P40+.) I'd urge you to shoot with as many of the cameras as you can before deciding. Aside from the specs you may find you're more comfortable handling and shooting with one system over another. Is a WLF an important consideration for you...if so only the Hassy offers it among the brands you're considering. I'd also suggest you get some test files and play with each camera's proprietary software. This has become an increasingly important consideration and you may like one better than the other. Lot's of things to consider but the good news is that all the new offerings are stellar.
 

Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
You've received some very good information already. Here are some additional thoughts:

1) If you want to print that big on a regular basis, and unless it's for a billboard advert viewed from several meters distance, there's simply not going to be any replacement for megapixels; the more the better period.

2) see #1 above and #4 below.

3) No experience with Nodal Ninja.

4) Not enough personal experience with Hassy H lenses to address specifics, however this is another issue directly related to initial sensor choice. Problem with starting with one dimension sensor (talking physical sensor dimensions not MP count) and going to a dimensionally larger or smaller one is all your effective focal lengths change.

5) I would recommend starting with the manufacturers SLR body and adding a tech camera after you have really zeroed in on focals you prefer and developed your shooting pattern/style with it. HOWEVER, the fact you want to use your back on a tech camera means you should very definitely take that into consideration during initial brand selection and make sure you understand the process of using the different back options on a tech camera.
 

fotografz

Well-known member
I have been lurking around here for quite a while and a few months already once indicated that I might be prepared to jump into the MFDB world. Guy warned me and reminded me of the subtitle of this forum—but to no avail :ROTFL:.

I am not a professional and I don’t intend to make a living out of photography. It’s a hobby and my day job fortunately allows me to indulge in some nice gear. I shoot mostly travel, landscape (including seascapes and cityscapes), some abstracts, and portraits of friends and family. May main system is the Leica M (first M8 and now M9).

The reason I want to go into MFDB is that I like big prints, in particular if they are sharp and reveal a lot of detail. I find the size adds a totally different dimension to the visual impact of certain photos. For example, I was fascinated by the visual impact of some Burtinsky and Ronald Fisher prints (I know that they are not only strong because they are big but also because these are dammed good photographers, but their large prints have a very different impact than the same print but smaller).

I looked at the various systems available and I think I am decided to go fort the H4D40 unless it turns out that I have an issue with the ergonomics of that camera (I live in Brussels and, believe it or not, there is no Hassi dealer in the capital of Europe :thumbdown:, so I still need to make the trip to Antwerp or Paris). I thought about the P1 40+ but I think I’d prefer the H4D. I find the True Focus and also the TS adapter pretty nifty and innovative concepts. I also thought hard about the S2 and in the beginning was thinking/hoping that that could be the right system. But then there are simply too many issues with that camera and while money is not the key driver behind my decision-making, the lenses (if and when available) are simply in a different price league altogether.

I would not be posting this if there were not still a few issues on which I hope to get some guidance from the collective wisdom of this forum.

1. This may sound insane, but I wonder whether 40MP are enough if one wants to print say 1.5mx1.8 meters (60”x70”). How much would one gain if one goes to 50 or 60MP? (I know one gains 25% and 50% more pixels but what difference does that make as regards the print)?
2. I am inclined to now go for the H4D40 and then decide on a upgrade if and when I think it does not have enough MP. Any reason why that could be a stupid idea?
3. I have used a Nodal Ninja 5 for the Leica. Have some of you used it with a Hassy or P1 and what was your experience?
4. What lens set up could you recommend?
• I am inclined to get the 28 for landscape but I wonder whether it could be to wide as the sole landscape lens.
• What is the best portrait lens? I am looking for something with a large format like transition from focus to out of focus area (a bit similar to the 75 lux for the M9) (I have seen some shots by David Farkas with the 70mm on the S2 who had that look and that almost made me revisit my decision as regards the S2).
• What could you recommend for macro work (flowers etc.)?
• Finally, how useful / good are the zooms? For those who have them, how often and for what applications do you use them. FYI, before moving to the M system a few years ago, I was shooting almost only zooms for many years and giving up zooms was one of my main worries. Now I don’t miss them and often go out with only one lens to keep things simple.


5. I am also still asking myself the question whether I should go for tech camera rather than a Hassi or P1 camera. What advantage as regards image quality does a tech camera have over the Hassi (other than that it allows tilt and shift)? Can you get something like this with a Hassi (in particular number 3 and 4) http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/newthread.php?do=newthread&f=10?

Sorry for asking so many questions and many thanks in advance for your help.
I think I understand what you are looking for in Medium Format. We'll see ... ;)

1) Is 40 meg enough? This depends on whether you tend to severely crop a lot, and then print large. Otherwise, yes it is plenty because the current 37 to 40 meg offerings from Leica, Hasselbad and Phase One are the latest in sensor advancements.

Please understand it is not JUST about how many megs for detail ... it is also about the larger physical size of the sensor itself that produces tonal subtleties and less harsh transitions compared to smaller sensor cameras.

2) See number one.

3) If you do decide on Hasselblad, and hearing your applications, I would select the H4D/50 over the H4D/40. The Camera works exactly the same with True Focus and all that, but the sensor is a bit larger, and the ISO range is 50 to 800 compared to the H4D's 100 to 1600. Different cameras for different uses. ISO 50 helps with the shutter speed in bright ambient a little bit.

4a) On the Hasselblad: for landscapes the 28 and/or the 35-90. On the H4D/40 the 1.3X lens factor cuts the wide end of the 28, on the H4D/50 it doesn't. The 35-90 on the 50 is where I would start for landscapes. If you need wider, then add the 28. If you go for the H4D/40, I'd start with the 28.

4b) For portraits the H/C 100/2.2 and 210/4. I recently shot a quick portrait session outdoors in bright conditions using the H4D/40 with the 100/2.2 and the Leica M9 with the 75/1.4. I scrimmed the harshly dappled light, and then shot with one camera after the other. When we opened all the images in Lightroom no one could tell which-was-which without looking at the exif information. The only way to tell the difference was to take both to 200% on the computer screen where the resolution of the Hasselblad file was breathtaking. I LOVE the HC/100/2.2 because it feels like my 75 Lux, but produces a larger file with slightly less abrupt transitions in the skin tones.

(I've attached two shots ... the Hassleblad version is a large crop from portrait orientation to landscape orientation in order to roughly match the Leica M9 shot).

5) Tech camera verses a MFD camera? Except for the Leica S2, you can do both. The MF digital backs work on tech cameras. I have a Rollei Xact2, but it is getting less use now that I secured the HTS/1.5. However, when it comes to pure IQ nothing from Hasselblad, Mamiya or even Leica matches the digital view camera lenses. So, I'll keep the Rollei for those times I need that kind of retina slicing detail.

Finally, as to the difference between a leaf shutter and focal plane shutter camera ... only you can determine that. I rarely run out of shutter speed at ISO 50 or 100, but I also do not shoot many shots in harsh lighting conditions unless forced to ... in which case I can use a ND filter. I carry one but have never used it yet. On the other hand, I prefer having a high sync speed for outdoor fill flash when shooting portraits in bright, backlit, or harsh light.

Here are those two outdoor ambient light shots I mentioned (click on the image to see it larger) ... more difficult to tell with web compressed files, but when printed to 11" X 14" they are remarkably similar.

-Marc
 

cmb_

Subscriber & Workshop Member
2. I am inclined to now go for the H4D40 and then decide on a upgrade if and when I think it does not have enough MP. Any reason why that could be a stupid idea?

If you do decide to go for the H4D40 (or for that matter whatever system or configuration you choose) then be sure to have a good conversation with your dealer on the upgrade options available to you and associated costs. Your dealer should understand your concerns regarding printing sizes and 40 vs 50 vs 60 Megapixels and hopefully be willing to lay out some options for you for future upgrades. Just a thought.
 

dougpeterson

Workshop Member
One key difference between the two camera systems you mention (Hassy H and Phase) is the type of lens used. This is often overlooked by first time buyers but is a really important consideration as the two types of lenses are fundamentally different and once you invest in one of the two systems it's financially challenging to completely change.

As a review:
Hasselblad H and V bodies have no body shutter and use a leaf shutter in each lens
Phase One AF bodies have a body shutter and cannot use leaf shutter lenses
Phase One DF bodies have a body shutter and can use three leaf shutter lenses (available today, more in the pipeline)

Advantages of leaf shutter lenses:
- sync with flash at high shutter speeds
- less shutter bounce***

Disadvantages of leaf shutter lenses:
- larger/heavier physical lens design
- added manufacturing expense
- limited lifetime of each lens
- limited maximum shutter speed
- diffraction is shown at lower f-stops (minor difference)

Advantages of dual systems
- purchase/ larger/heavier/more-expensive-to-manufacturer lenses as needed, lighter/small/less-expensive-to-manufacture lenses when you don't

Advantages of body shutter systems:
- use of "alternative glass" includes anything that can be physically mounted whether by adapter or by gaffe tape (see my experiments with microscope lenses, holga lenses, etc etc)
- use of legacy lenses include leaf shutter lenses and non leaf shutter lenses

Disadvantage of lens shutter only systems:
- legacy or third party glass is limited to lenses with leaf shutters that have an adapter to trigger the leaf shutter (AFAIK the H can only accept H and V series lenses)

*owing to a technical detail regarding what happens to the design of the lens when you have to place a shutter mechanism towards the rear of the design
**unlikely to effect low-volume shooters but still effects the used market
***the "less shutter bounce" is more important when comparing to a body with a lot of shutter bounce. As guy/jack have documented through thorough testing the AF body has notable though not extreme shutter bounce at speeds around 1/8-1/30 of a second and the DF has far less.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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dougpeterson

Workshop Member
I am inclined to now go for the H4D40 and then decide on a upgrade if and when I think it does not have enough MP. Any reason why that could be a stupid idea?
Note that the only higher resolution system currently available from Hasselblad is a 50 megapixel unit. The 60 megapixel unit they initially announced to be released in April of 2009 has not been released. I don't think it is unfair of me to point that out given that the OP is specifically asking about upgrades down the road.

I actually think though that it's a moot point. If you found yourself craving more resolution you would be far better off with a tech camera and tech-camera-stitching which I'll address in my next post.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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Phase One, Leaf, Cambo, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
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charlesphoto

New member
Why not do like Burtynsky does and shoot film? Depending on what you want to shoot you can get a LOT more megapixels drum scanning MF or 4X5 (he shoots Linhof and Mamiya 6/7 I believe). Unless you are doing lots of production and commercial work MFD seems to be an expensive path to go down.
 

dougpeterson

Workshop Member
5. I am also still asking myself the question whether I should go for tech camera rather than a Hassi or P1 camera. What advantage as regards image quality does a tech camera have over the Hassi (other than that it allows tilt and shift)? Can you get something like this with a Hassi (in particular number 3 and 4) http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/newthread.php?do=newthread&f=10?
A tech camera is without a doubt a whole other level of imaging. There are three major advantages:
-glass from extremely good glass companies: Schneider and Rodenstock
-wide angle lenses designed without the constraint of a mirror box
-image circles that often allow 2, 4, or even 6 frames of stitching one continuous image

Attached is a chart showing:
-P40+ single frame
-P40+ four frame stitch
-Schneider 47mm
-Schneider 35mm
[/LIST]

This illustrates the amazing power of technical cameras. The P40+ which is "only" 40 megapixels can be used to create a 120 megapixel image from a 6x7cm effective sensor size. In fact you go even a bit bigger with 6-frames with a few of the lenses (Schneider 43/47 come to mind).

You can use the technical camera with either the P40+ or Hasselblad H4D, but keep in mind that the 40+ has an internal battery slot whereas the H4D would need an external power supply and a firewire cable leading to it. Also the P40+ uses a Dalsa sensor which handles extreme angles of light with a bit more grace (less cast/falloff) though in fairness we have many customers using Kodak sensors (P25+/P45+) with much luck and happiness.

There are also fundamental differences in the color, tonality, and response curve of the Kodak and Dalsa sensors. Like you would expect this is mostly subjective and should be evaluated on your own.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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dougpeterson

Workshop Member
Finally: software.

You owe it to yourself to download the free trial of Phase One's Capture One Pro which can process your M8/M9 files as well as files from Phase One backs and Hassleblad's Phocus 2.5 which uses the OSX/iPhoto/Aperture rendering engine to allow processing your M8/M9 files as well as those from Hasselblad's digital back.

You'll be spending a lot of time in either Phocus or Capture One as based on your description of yourself you would not want to process a single one of your files through anything but the manufacturers software.

If you find C1's default user interface to be a bit much to take in all in one go (there are a lot of powerful tools that you won't find elsewhere like lens correction to remove the purple fringing from the wide angle shots from your M9 files) then go to Window > Workspace > Simplified which will hide a lot of the advanced tools and simplify the interface.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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baxter

New member
Really interesting thread given that I am in process of switching to buy MF Digital (Phase One 645DF with P45+) and Linhof Techno as my Phase Two.... having been using 5x4 film for a few years.

Doug what back was used for the stitching pattern in your attachment please? Once funds are replenished and the Ebony 45SU has been sold, I'm intending to get the Techno and not sure which sliding back to use.
 

Steve Hendrix

Well-known member
Really interesting thread given that I am in process of switching to buy MF Digital (Phase One 645DF with P45+) and Linhof Techno as my Phase Two.... having been using 5x4 film for a few years.

Doug what back was used for the stitching pattern in your attachment please? Once funds are replenished and the Ebony 45SU has been sold, I'm intending to get the Techno and not sure which sliding back to use.

I believe this is with the KaptureGroup Stitching Back.


Steve Hendrix
 

jlm

Workshop Member
for all the potential gains, the tech camera is frustrating. the taking sequence is similar to 4x5: compose on ground glass: your back is off the camera, maybe on a slider. unfortunately, the image is tiny, not even 2-1/4 sq, so seeing the effect of tilts is difficult and accurate focus is tough, even a loupe is hard to get in there. Then put on the back, close shutter click once to wake up back, take shot. unfortunately, the image on the back's LCD is useless for judging anything except the histogram.
one option is just leave the back in place, focus by the numbers and use the attached viewfinder.

once you get this under control, it works fine and shifts for stitching are easy enough

the obvious solution is shooting tethered, but that has it's own problems
 

baxter

New member
Thanks Steve. Just looked it up, great flexibility, but not cheap and a bit of a monstrosity in terms of sail area on a windy beach or cliff top! Will need to do some more research on getting the right back.

Yes jlm, I am concerned about tiny size of GG compared to what I'm used to. However I have a 10x loupe, lots of enthusiasm and am heartened by results I see from other users. Just need to up my skill level - nothing like a new challenge and adventure!
 

dougpeterson

Workshop Member
I really don't think GG is a viable option anymore. But of course I am just one data point and others are happy to use it.

Regardless the point is ABSOLUTELY solid and despite the length of my posts I was a bit rushed. Normally I would be very careful to point out the incredible slower and more difficult workflow that a tech camera comes with. It opens up a new world of quality but at the price of working at absolute best half as fast (probably more often closer to 10-20% as fast) which means occasional or frequent "missed" shots, a long break-in period where you can't focus properly on the art because you're still getting used to the method/mechanics, and less total shots from any given location/day/trip.

When I shoot tech cameras 90% of the frames are shot with a pretested/known/recorded combination of focus-point, aperture, and tilt. While this seems limiting it is also very freeing - the rest of the shooting is simply composition and mechanical shooting and being freed of focus the use of the rangefinder for pretty decent rough composition and the LCD for final composition I do not miss a ground glass one iota.

The reward of a 100 megapixel, sharp corner-to-corner, tactile, 3D looking image which can be printed essentially any size because few if any viewers have ever seen a print created with more detail captured will be easily worth it for some photographers and sound crazy to other photographers.

The diversity of tech cameras on the market SHOCKED me when I first got into this area of the market. Three from Cambo, Six from Alpa, others from Arca Swiss / Horseman / Silvestri / Sinar. I couldn't believe it. This is an area of photography that is hidden from even most photographers but is a world of options, workflow challenges, image quality benefits, and attention to detail that is hard to fully understand when you first come across it. Being a Leica owner I think you likely will appreciate the beauty of the core tennet of this area of the market - a focus on final quality at (nearly) any cost (of time or $).

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
__________________
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