Sensor Plus, what's the fuss?

[dougpeterson]

I would send the raw file to your dealer.

This doesn't look like the ISO800 files I've personally shot with that system or like the variety of sensor+ files I've seen from others. Has this rendering been pushed in exposure or otherwise greatly changed from the original neutral (all sliders at default) rendering? In particular the banding is surprising. VERY rare to see that off a Phase back and not something I ever expect at ISO800 in sensor+.

I've found ISO800 in Sensor+ to be REALLY good and ISO1600 to be surprisingly good.

Silly question: can you triple check that this file was in fact in sensor+ mode? If this were an ISO800 at full resolution file (the max ISO for full res) I would not be overly surprised to see some strangeness (it is after all the last ISO on the system for full res and any camera's highest ISO is a bit weird - otherwise they should have included a higher ISO!).

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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[dougpeterson]

Also the backs aren't very sensitive (on the contrary they perform well even pushed to some extreme situations) but just wanted to make sure you hadn't, for instance, left the back in direct sunlight sitting on a black metal table for a couple hours or something. Heat does = noise and it's rare to see it have a practical effect, but if you get the back really hot and use high ISO at the same time it can impact image quality.

 

[tashley]

Hi Doug,

It was a cool evening, maybe 15C, and the camera was in shade all the time. The frame I posted has all sliders at C1 default except for WB but even at 'as shot' the banding is very clear. The frame was shot 1 minute and 13 seconds after the previous frame and there is the possibility that I switched the back off between exposures though generally I had it permanently on, Normal latency and yes, this shot is certainly in Sensor Plus more because it has the lower resolution.

I will see if I can make it happen again. There were some other frames that had this too but since they were also OOF I trashed them. so I will have to see if there are any traces of it in any of the other ones I kept!

 

[Chris Barrett]

Pretty soon after I got my P65+, I tested the Sensor + against my D3. I haven't used it since. It was just not even close to the high iso performance of the Nikon. Certainly each tool has it's strengths. It is nice of Phase to build in some versatility, tho.

Lately some of my files are noisier than I feel they should be. I think I need to do some zero latency testing. I so do not want to go back to wakeup cables!

CB

 

[Ken Tanaka]

FWIW, Chris' remarks, above, echo my perspective on PhaseOne's Sensor+ technology. I'm certainly glad that I have it but it's not really competitive with the high-ISO frames I can get from my Canon 5DII, or even my 1DsIII. My P65's ISO 800 and above is roughly where the Canon technology was four years ago. (I can't speak for Nikon...never touched one.) In Phase's support, however, C1 v.5 does do a pretty nice job of cleaning-up these files natively.

I really don't care about high ISO with my P65; that's not what I bought it for. ISO 100-400 is basically my working range for this tool. But if you really need the best shot-in-dark imaging stick with Canon and Nikon. They're at the absolute top of this game, and likely will remain there for years to come.

Right tools for the...

 

[kdphotography]

Sensor+ is definitely about flexibility. I'll probably be "stuck" with a Canon DSLR alongside the Phase for quite some time....

 

[Guy Mancuso]

If your not going over ISO 800 or 1600 than no need for the DSLR's is what I have come up with. If i was going higher and doing more of that type of work, sure that would be the best bet BUT i see no need spending another 8 or 10k for a system that for me really would be worthless because i know for sure i would not even pick it up with a P40+ sitting here. My files are very clean at 800,1600 and for this type of PR work i have to do it is perfect for it. Besides all of that I hated working with Canon and Nikon files of the past , not sure about the new bodies but I was left completely uninspired from the files. Horses for yada yada yada.

 

[dougpeterson]

Just goes to show one man's invaluable feature is another man's useless bloatware.

I like sensor+ because
- half of my shooting is in situations where I am 100% willing to capture a (very sharp and pliable) 10 or 15 megapixel raw file. It increases shooting speed, decreases storage needs, and increases the sped of editing/processing
- ISO800 and ISO1600 look darn good. I also use ISO3200 quite often by using them as high contrast black and white.

Like this shot. I can't remember if it was ISO 1600 or 3200, but it was high! (note the blown highlights are a result of my style and could have been held if desired, and there is banding from the JPG compression which is not in the raw file).

If you're doing a lot of work at ISO3200/6400/12800 with your nikon/canon then that's clearly the better tool. If you shoot a lot at ISO1600 (especially if you're using IS lenses or f/1-f/2 apertures) a Canon/Nikon would probably be a better tool but having two complete systems means doubling up lenses, accessories, batteries, chargers blah blah. Cost, packing-size/weight, keeping two systems up-to-date with firmware/software etc, learning two systems. If Sensor+ means that, for your style of shooting, you can stick with one system that is worth a lot right there.


Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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[Steve Hendrix]

I never saw the point of Sensor Plus as eliminate the need for 35mm (although some did indeed do so - Guy). Instead I always saw it and still do see it as a tool that allows you to shoot medium format in more situations than you would otherwise. And that has been a prime desire of photographers for years.


Steve Hendrix

 

[Jack]

Instead I always saw it and still do see it as a tool that allows you to shoot medium format in more situations than you would otherwise. And that has been a prime desire of photographers for years.


Steve Hendrix

+1... But then because it was as good as it is, I was able to sell my Canon kit. But at the same time, I am not at all surprised it doesn't suit Tim...

 

[kdphotography]

I think it is really easy to poo-poo Sensor+ at first blush (I did). But then you find yourself in some situation where you need it, and your DSLR is not around. And it works.

Sensor+ is just something that's nice to have; it's added more flexibility for me and it has proven its value much more than I would ever have thought initially.

ken

 

[tashley]

+1... But then because it was as good as it is, I was able to sell my Canon kit. But at the same time, I am not at all surprised it doesn't suit Tim...

Actually I was quite surprised. Those nasty streaks were the first issue I've encountered with the P65+ which otherwise seems well made. And given how much I'd heard about the high quality of Sensor Plus results from so many sources I was expecting it to be pretty good, so much so that I used it without thinking, as I trialled my new LS 110.

As it is I fall into the camp of about half the people here: it's great that it's available and I'll use it when the need crops up unexpectedly but for now at least if am anticipate any volume of high iso shots I'll take the Canon.

 

[Jack]

When you say nasty streaks, I think we need quantification. Are they patently visible in every image, or only slightly so at 400% view in smooth, even-toned areas at binned 1600 or 3200?

I ask because it is a documented trait to show have some of the sensor fold lines areas show up in the latter circumstance. In my case I've seen it once or twice when conditions were "prefect" for me to find it, but even then it would never be noticeable in an A4 print by 99.9% of the population.

 

[tashley]

When you say nasty streaks, I think we need quantification. Are they patently visible in every image, or only slightly so at 400% view in smooth, even-toned areas at binned 1600 or 3200?

I ask because it is a documented trait to show have some of the sensor fold lines areas show up in the latter circumstance. In my case I've seen it once or twice when conditions were "prefect" for me to find it, but even then it would never be noticeable in an A4 print by 99.9% of the population.

Hi Jack,
there's an example of what I mean in the 100% crop at the top of this thread and I think that should answer your questions. Posting from iPhone right now, not at home so can't confirm but I think that shot was at ISO 800 and it's either banding or streaking but isn't in the right place to be 'fold' I think....

 

[Jack]

Hi Jack,
there's an example of what I mean in the 100% crop at the top of this thread

Sorry, I had somehow missed that crop on the first go! Anyway, what you are showing there doesn't resemble what I have seen when I did find a sensor fold -- mine was centered and vertical in orientation, and rendered a subtle difference in shading/hue on either side. I have no idea what that is on yours, maybe could be a read or write flaw for that file?

 

[tashley]

I had a centrefold issue on my final S2 and it was just as you describe. I think the problem on the phase file at the top of this thread was more like a highlight streak from the bright area at the right hand side. I had it a few times that evening but not since. Sigh. Seems like there's a ghost in every machine!

 

[Jack]

I would suggest that when something weird happens in one file, it is an anomaly of some sort. When it repeats on occasion, it is a concern. When it is appears consistently or is repeatable, it gets elevated to an issue...

My .02,