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choosing a new MFD system

fotografz

Well-known member
Geez only us old timers remember that jingle. LOL
Actually, I think it was for a mint, not gum ... breath mint and candy ... or something like that.

Now back to looking for my &@#%$&! battery chargers for the H4D ... looked everywhere for over an hour ... GRRRRRR .... another symptom of a dried up brain.

:ROTFL:
 

Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
:ROTFL: Certs -- achieved marketing legend by claiming it was a candy and a breath mint when they adopted the jingle, "It's two, two -- two mints in one!"
 

VICTOR BT

Member
@ marc
here's my website url.. i tried to edit my signature, but i see it does not work (show up).
web.mac.com/victorbt

@ guy, about the forum
i have joined here, cause this is the biggest data-base and discussion especially for medium format on the internet that i have found. so, after reading some stuff here (like yours and jacks about leica s2 and phase stuff, or marc's about h4d impressions) i thought it is the best place to ask questions about what interests me.

@ yair
yes i know the leaf software, it works great, files are super, and i actually liked the interface/workflow. leaf is israeli, and has that service advantage, from maker and from dealer... so it seems to be the most comfortable place....
i do have a question to u about afi camera, pm will be sent...

@ jack
yes i know, any of those 40mp backs will be just great, but since there are choices and nuances and high costs, a little bit good sportive mood will do no harm when doing prior studies :)
i am also aware about the effective focal lenghts when using hts1.5, saw it on hasselbald site/brochure. 28mm and 80mm on the chip size of 40mp is ok. just a question wether the quality is good enough (even if i dont expect it to be like alpa+35mm). it is also should be noticed that 28mm and hts 1.5 is not far from the price of alpa+lens, so the price is not a main issue.

@ doug ptomsu and marc
so the alpa or hts issue is just about:
is the hts image quality satisfying (comparable to alpa with scheider/rodenstok lens), especially with wide angle lens, and is it that much more comfortable to use compared to alpa (swa probably) ?
i like the idea of hts, and the idea of weist level finder (although it cannot go vertical), but im not sure when i have the opportunity to check it in real. seems i can only test the h4d body with 80 mm lens, which is great too, cause at least i can get familiar with hasselblad camera....

a question about Kodak vs Delsa sensor that mentioned in the posts...
what is it about, one has micro lenses, the other does not? what else ?
i want it to go well with high ISO, i want it to print well at big sizes. it is not a studio only camera, it will be my primary camera - general purpose, do everything stuff - from spontaneous photography to stages/composed stuff, from portraits to architecture etc, from art projects to commercial fashion and other stuff... the only thing i do not expect those 40mp cameras to be is: not super fast nikon/canon (dont care about it), not a pocket camera (that can always be at hand) and not a sexy camera to load real b/w film in it...
 

PeterA

Well-known member
All the backs are excellent but each has its quirks.
I think dealer support is a very important issue - and perhaps Leaf has the advantage for you in Israel - as an ex owner the file quality wasn't the reason I switched.
If you want to use a technical camera - with tilt and shift - as an Alpa owner and user I would say - there are better choices.If you want just some shift - then Alpa is excellent and I would go for an Alpa Max.
If you are intending to use the digital back on a technical camera - you MUST test for yourself - and do use all the software programs in the test as well as white balance, color shift and other related issues -do some research regarding tech camera workflow and specifically look carefully into pixel pitch choice - if you really care about ultimate image quality from back and lenses.

Good Luck.
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Victor, the URL for your website doesn't work. If it did, it would show up as a link with-in the post above. It is difficult to discuss options without seeing your work. Simply open your website in a separate window and select/drag the address to paste it in the text box of a post on this thread (like I did below).

RE: the HTS/1.5 ... yes, the IQ is satisfying in that it is as good as when not using it ... I see no significant impact on IQ from using it. I posted examples of using the HTS/1.5 with shifts to create panoramic landscapes:

http://forum.getdpi.com/gallery/browseimages.php?do=member&imageuser=58

There is also a thread discussing the HTS with corner detail shots from these panos ... but, being brain dead, I can't locate it. :wtf:

I also use a Rollie Xact 2 with Rodenstock and Schneider optics .... and as mentioned, no MFD SLR is quite as good. Yet, it is a matter of what you will actually use ... the HTS is so easy... easy to carry, easy to put on, easy to focus, easy to make T/S corrections... and the Phocus software does all the image corrections, so micro lenses basically have zero effect when tilting and shifting ... but in turn allow higher ISOs at full resolution. I not only use the HTS in studio ... I also got it to do portraits and macro with tubes using selective focus. I have less and less reason to drag out the Rollei view camera and deal with the slower work flow since getting the HTS.

For me the question was one of diversity of shooting situations and flexibility/mobility of the camera system because, like you, I shoot all sorts of stuff with MFD ... even weddings. The 2nd and 4th images on my home page for weddings was recently done with the H4D which, with True Focus/Focus Lock for off-center compositions while shooting on the fly, is actually approaching the operational speed of my 35mm DSLRs. Slower in some areas, but faster in others.

http://www.fotografz.com/

In fact, a majority of the home page slideshow presentation was done with Medium Format either digital or film. This of course is lost with a sub 1 meg web image, but the prints are another matter altogether :)

All of the contemporary MFD systems have their pluses and a few minuses ... but a lot less minuses than in the past ... all of these systems have improved significantly in the past few years to the point that it is a struggle to see the difference in end results when applied by someone who knows what they are doing with the gear and the software. Still, were I you ... I'd seriously consider the Leaf options because of the support.

-Marc
 

David K

Workshop Member
Copying and pasting the URL that Victor posted opens up his website without any problems for me (using Safari).

Victor, welcome to the forum. Whatever you decide you've come to the right place to get informed, helpful advice. As a former Leaf user, now shooting Sinar, I don't have specific advice on the new offerings from Phase/Leaf/Hassy but can tell you that the guys here who use them know what they are talking about. I learned a lot about what I like and don't like in MF by handling and shooting with the kits... personal, subjective stuff that might not apply to anyone else but would certainly be relevant for me. Good luck with your choice and I hope you will post some images here as well. I enjoyed your Israeli Women portfolio and think you have a very good eye. You'll get great results whatever you decide.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Okay on espresso number two. Some things to consider maybe not exactly in order but stuff you want to look at between systems.

Body handling and feature sets, do your hands fit it okay and can you get to the controls easily when running at full speed. Viewfinder give you the correct eyesight and magnification for your eyes. 40 mpx sensors will be a crop sensor and that shows up in the finder. You really have two choices here the Phase DF and Hassy H body. Hassy will only take Hassy backs , Phase DF will take Phase and leaf backs.

Speaking of backs I maybe only looking at 3 backs . Hassy , leaf and Phase. Now i know I left out Sinar here but not knowing the full story anymore they have sort of left the market with the lose of the HY6 . Now I know someone will correct me here on Sinar and it's future and that is fine . I lost touch what is going on with them so maybe someone can help. Here leaf maybe a good choice since you are in Israel so do check out the dealer and support network.

Batteries. Hassy is a proprietary one and in a pinch may not be able to walk into a local store and get one. Leaf and Phase use general video cam batteries and are pretty easy to get world wide. On a tech camera you Leaf and Phase will have a advantage since the battery is on the back itself. Downside on Leaf and Phase or I should say the DF body is it takes AA batteries so you know have two battery types and two chargers but AA are easily available anywhere. Obviously a plus and a minus on Leaf and Phase back/body. Easy to get almost anywhere but issue is two types. Hassy batteries obviously one type but you will want to carry several with you.

Lenses All hassy lenses are leaf shutters with a maximum of 1/800's of a second plus syncs at 1/800 also. Plus and minus here all lenses are leaf style but you do have a limit on shutter speed. Phase lenses are all focal lenses with a maximum shutter of 1/4000 and sync at 1/125 but they do have 3 leaf lenses today 55,80 and 110 and more to follow down the road that will sync as high as 1/1600 with P40 and P65 backs.
Have to weigh your options here . Both systems will also take Hassy V lenses as well with adapters.

Both systems have a wide range of glass as well. Hassy and phase are the only systems that have a 28mm for me essential others maybe not. Hassy does have a 30-90 zoom today and we are still waiting on Phase in this area. Hassy also has the 1.5T/S option as well. Will Phase have these in the future or something similar? I hope so and will know maybe at Photokinia.

Software . Here you really need to try Phocus and C1. I can onlt speak of c1 and it rocks but I hear good things on Phocus. You can get free software to download as a program or trails to give them a whirl. We can provide raws if needed to play with.

Tech cameras obviously you can use any back here but Leaf and Phase maybe a easier setup with there own battery attached otherwise they all work great tethered to there software programs.

Enough for now but again you have weigh stuff out. Leaf and Phase I should mention are owned by Phase so many similar features on these two systems and share software and such. They do basically use the same Dalsa sensors as well but need to check on this also. Yair is the Leaf guy with all the answers on this system and very knowledgeable . Phase stuff Doug and Steve can help from Capture Integration plus Kevin Raber is here from Phase. Hassy we have David Grover and not to mention all the forum members here that can guide you. We have the experts here so just ask away and if I got something wrong here they will correct me as they should. But do ask questions and get answers from our folks here . These are very tough choices but the end of the day there is not one system here that will not produce outstanding images they all will do that.
 

Steve Hendrix

Well-known member
I think there is maybe a bit of "over sensitivity" here regarding "brand" discussions. Reminds me of having to adhere to political correctness when having discussions at a cocktail party -- I'd hope we'd be beyond that here when we're trying to learn about gear...

Who exactly "picked holes" and in what product?

If by chance you were referring to the HTS comment about effective focal on a crop sensor camera, I think that was a reasonable point to bring up especially when the OP asked specifically about it. The combined effects of cropped sensor and HTS magnification *might* be a valuable revelation for a new user if they weren't otherwise aware of it.

Is it also now off limits point out that any extender, including the HTS, also cuts light transmission?

I tend to agree with Jack. I regularly participate on 3 photographic forums (2 public, 1 non-public). All 3 are very different in their feel and tone. I think that GetDPI is the most benevolent of the 3. That is a credit to the participants.

That said, the non-public forum is quite feisty at times. It is very "truth at any cost" oriented. Damn the hurt feelings. Be men. Etc, etc. It is a relatively set group of members, so everyone has a pretty good idea of who is who and there have been get togethers. That helps with the intensity; very rare occasions of hurt feelings. And it's a good time.

But all 3 have their virtues.

In general, I believe competitiveness can turn ugly if we're not mindful of it. I think most here try to be, we just slip up from time to time. But GetDPI has a way of expressing their feelings about that, so it works. I do have to say that David Grover, you are probably the most well mannered (though you're not perfect, you've had a few moments!). Hats off to you.

And shame on Yair for bringing up that nasty little fact about the focal length magnification and stop loss on the HTS! :lecture:

I'm just kidding a bit.

But I do agree with Jack that pointing out relevant product information ultimately benefits the potential buyer. Competitors can have a way of "keeping us honest". Dealers and reps (and even users) may not necessarily bring up negative aspects of their product. Phase One digital backs have a horrible LCD screen - not as good as the Hasselblad. My gosh, there I've said it! How many times have I brought that up? (Umm....as little as possible...?)

Sorry for the slight off topic.

Back to the HTS! I like the HTS. Yes it magnifies your focal length, yes you lose a stop and a half. And some have said it's expensive. But heck, it can work with (5?) lenses, so I see it as a good value. Does it match Rodenstock/Schneider quality? No. But I think it can be pretty close. It might be the cup of tea for many.

But if you really think you'd like it, please remember you can always use it with a Phase One or Leaf digital back (or even Sinar) and any H1 or H2 camera. An HTS and the P65+ - world's only available full frame 645 sensor - paired together on an H2 camera would be a great combo. And even though you couldn't use the 28mm (umm....:rolleyes:) the FOV gained on the sensor would do well with the 35mm HC. Ditto for an Aptus II 10. So...sure, I'm all for it!

Just understand how you would use it and what it would enable and how you couldn't use it compared to an Alpa/Cambo/Arca solution, that's perhaps as important to know than the image quality.


Steve Hendrix
 

yaya

Active member
The funny thing (to me at least, might not be funny to everyone) is that I was pointing out a couple of limitations in a (good) competitive product, yet others saw it as holes that I was picking.

Your choice of words not mine...

In fact I did not even call them limitations.

"incredibly obnoxious and irritating"? :sleep006: errr...I can think of a few things in life that are more "incredibly obnoxious and irritating"...anyway...

Back to the BBQ

Y
 

Steve Hendrix

Well-known member
Also I would mention that there is no shortage of opinions here. But I will say that while there are plenty of platitudes for everyone's favorite, it's often the nitty gritty details about shortcomings that DO NOT get mentioned. And these are frequently critically important to be aware of for a potential purchaser ready to fork out $20k - $30k. From that standpoint, complete information is a benefit the way I see it. How it is presented, who presents it, etc, might be that fine line, though.

It might be a good thing to see a thread entitled "In the market for mfdb - what are the gotchas to consider for each system?"


Steve Hendrix
 

Don Libby

Well-known member
I've seen quite a few threads here and on other forums about which system is "best" or "better"; I get those e-mails all the time as well. It seems to me the same as which vehicle is better, Ford, Dodge, or Porsche. The way I see it is that now days their so similar that there's really little difference and what difference there is is so slight that it'd be very hard to define.

The hard truth is there simply no "best" do-all system out there - hell if there were there would be only one company making it and it would be so damn expensive us mortals wouldn't be able to afford it. The question rests on what would or will be the best system for me? What if you shoot weddings? What about portrait work? Still life? Food? Landscape? The list goes on and on. What will be best for the individual? Can you grow into it? What about the software? Will the file size be so greatly different from what you've been shooting that it will mean a completely new computer just to do your processing. We answer most of these questions all the time.

My only experience in digital medium format has been with Phase One and I have been pleased. So pleased that I have no intention of making a move. Phase One fits me.

I've tried Hasselblad while I was researching my move into medium format and found I didn't like the way the body felt in my hands. I tried a Mamiya AFD II and for whatever liked it. I looked at the expense involved between the two systems, body and glass and felt that I got more by spending less on the Mamiya. All this was while still shooting film. It's been a while for me however I remember researching digital backs and quickly decided that Phase One was right for me.

As many of you already know I no longer shoot with a Mamiya having moved into a technical camera. I did my research there as well and after testing the (then new) Cambo WRS fell in love with it as it fits me. The lenses are all Schneider and work great - for me. Would I recommend a Cambo? Yes I would and do. Is it perfect? No but it suites my needs as a landscape photographer. Would I recommend the lenses I use? Yes I would and do. Do I recommend Phase One? Yes I do every time I'm asked. Is Phase One perfect? There again no but it is near perfect for me and that's what counts to me.

We all have our own preconceived notions of what a good system is which is based on personal experience using that particular setup. Thus the beginning of brand wars. One of the things I like most about this forum is that those wars for the most part are missing. Yes we'll get into a heated discussion once in a while however again for the most part we miss the "my Richard is bigger than yours" argument. And that's very good.

It's very funny that we keep hearing all these questions on gear but when was the last time we heard a question about dealers? You can have the best possible gear however if your support sucks then it's only a matter of time before you have a major meltdown.

I like Steve's question as well - what about the gotchas? Since in my own personal opinion there isn't one system out there that is the end of all do it all then what about the pitfalls and work arounds? We do have a good review section here and maybe that's where some of that information is held.

I'll close by saying the only stunningly great perfect piece of camera gear that I've tried and currently own - one that is so simple to use no matter the circumstances, day, night, rain ,snow, sleet, blowing sand and in surf (yes I've used it in each occasion) is the Arca Swiss Cube.

Steve once again you're right "...there is no shortage of opinions here." This has been mine.

Don
 

markowich

New member
absolutely correct. without AF, Auto exposure etc but still technical cameras with high end digital back attached are the gold standard for many areas of photography, particularly when large prints are desired. as far as portability is concerned, the total weight of ALPA MAX+P65 with three rodenstocks/schneider lenses is less than the corresponding H equipment (or phase, leica..) and maybe even less than the nikon d3x + lenses. in fact, i know someone well, who basically does not leave home without the ALPA MAX+P65+3 or 4 lenses---))). maybe you want to check out

www.andrea-baczynski.com

where most of the images were made with the ALPA(with various digibacks). and believe me, they print out very nicely at 2meters length. the equipment already went up the himalayas, deep into bali rice paddies and into the saudi arabian desert.
easy to get addicted to it, peter
ps: i do prefer my M9 for my personal photography though---))))






Nothing matches the image quality of a dedicate WA camera (Alpa/Cambo/Horseman/Sinar) with Rodenstock or Schneider glass. These solutions are LESS easy to use, but are the absolute top of image quality in the current marketplace. I do not think you will find a single member of the board who has used a dedicated WA camera who would say that any other type of camera will match that quality - though you find many who would warn you that it's not an easy point-and-shoot setup and requires a user that wants quality much more than convenience :). When mounting to the tech camera the Leaf and Phase One have their own built in battery which means you wouldn't need an external battery or hard drive to power the back.

[Leaf shutter only] vs. [focal plane shutter only] vs. [leaf or focal plane shutter] is a very big decision often overlooked by photographers. It effects lens size/weight/price/maximum-shutter-speed/maximum-sync-speed/shutter-vibration and diffraction limitations. Each type of shutter has pros and cons and a system which lets you use either provides enormous flexibility. See this recent post for more details.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
I will say that while there are plenty of platitudes for everyone's favorite, it's often the nitty gritty details about shortcomings that DO NOT get mentioned.
Good point. And we should all be adult enough to realize that pointing out something we believe is a shortcoming is not the same thing as slamming the entire product. That's what I meant when I made the "political correctness" comment.
 

David K

Workshop Member
What a well behaved group we are...wonder if it has anything to do with one of the owners being a very big guy and the other an Italian from NJ :)
 

Don Libby

Well-known member
One thing to remember as we begin speaking in terms of weight of our systems, especially while using a technical camera is the entire kit. And by that I mean the sturdy tripod that is a must. Alone my Cambo/P45+ and a lens or two doesn't break my back however I must have that tripod with me to capture the image, and like it or not the tripod/cube weights more than the camera. So I suggest we begin to think globally here and think what a "standard" system might truly weigh. For me that means my Cambo WRS, P45+ extra batteries, cables, filters, at least 2 if not 3 lens, tripod and head. All this weighs in at close to 30 pounds excluding including backpack, water or other life essentials.

Weight might not be a huge factor in the studio however as a landscape photographer it is especially if it takes several miles over uneven terrain to get to where you need to be.

Just my 2¢

Don
 
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