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choosing a new MFD system

Woody Campbell

Workshop Member
Here's my take. Both systems are terrific. Both are used by people who I respect and even have some affection for. I'm a Hasselblad shooter but seriously considered moving to Phase this upgrade cycle.

TS options. Don and Marc have done a very good of summarizing the pros and cons here. I own and use the HTS and have owned but sold a Horsemann and a couple to digitars. Viewed 1:1 on screen the digitars are remarkable - but in actual use I found them frustrating: in the field focus and composition are challenging (and corrections for color shifts are good but rarely perfect) and I was not getting the best out of them. I now use the HTS very happily but if you need (as I have at various times) to push for ultimate performance you may not be happy with it. And of course with the HTS you get tilt as well as shift, which is not generally available in the compact technical camera solutions.

Lens selection is important. The HC 35-90 made a big difference for me. With it, the 28, the 100, the 150, the tele-extender and the HTS I'm really ready for anything. The camera + 35-90 is a reasonably light weight travel kit.

One vs. two batteries. Not really that important - we can cope with either.

Software. Both do an outstanding job of conversion, noise reduction, sharpening, color profiling etc. at reasonable speed. In other words basic blocking and tackling. C1 has the edge on user interface and bells and whistles - this was the primary reason that I gave the Phase system a serious look. Neither is a complete solution to all problems - you'll still be using PS for heavy lifting and LR or Aperture for resource management.

Focal plane vs. leaf. For a lot of reasons leaf fits my shooting style best. The availability of the new CZ leaf shutter lenses for Phase neutralizes the H advantage on this issue a bit. This was another reason why I gave Phase a serious look. (I've lost track of delivery dates and reviews/reactions since I don't have a reason to follow them.)

Features. There are all kinds of little differences, but the largest difference is True Focus vs. Sensor Plus. Your choice.

Kodak vs. Dalsa. This really is a matter of taste - shoot both and see which you prefer.

Open vs. closed systems. This is a red herring perpetuated by LL. Both systems are effectively closed. Both permit the use of legacy Hasselblad glass, although if this is important to you Phase is a better solution.

Ergonomics. I find both awkward. But have you ever shot with an 8x10 Deardorff? For a period it was the best tool available to Ansel Adams, so he adapted to it. You'll be able to adapt to either system.

Appearance - This shouldn't matter. It's a dumb criterion, right? The Hasselbad body is lightweight alloy with a stainless steel skin. Really impressive - I've worn the paint off the the corners of mine and it really is steel (except that the hand grip is plastic). But Hasselblad has used a putty/grey finish that makes it look like plastic. No accounting for taste. The Phase is black, as a camera should be.
 
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evgeny

Member
QUALITY: From my view the 8-or-so years old Sinar 54M and 54H are as good as "previous" generation Leaf Aptus 65 in terms of image quality.

QUALITY AGAIN: The 54H in multi-shoot mode will outperform most of the latest generation single-shoot digital backs for still life subjects.

SPEED: The Aptus 65 is fast. The shooting speed is actually limited by the time of charge of studio strobes, not by the FW400 connection or digital back.

ISO: The lower, the better. In controlled studio environment I don't need improved ISO performance.

SCREEN: I shoot tethered, the small preview screen is useless.

I think, all back are capable of producing great images. If you have budget, buy latest and greatest, but the difference is not such big, especially if you shoot in the studio.

What makes the difference is camera system, its shooting options, such as permanent mirror-up in multi-shoot mode, and, of course, optics. The camera doesn't matter - is not true at this time of evolution of photography, in my opinion.

From all suggested above options I like the Alpa for its compactness. However I think Alpa may not be a good choice for models, since it can't auto focus, and ever its laser meter option is not fast enough for moving subjects. With some practice, this can be not a limiting factor.

Edit: I will be interested to hear how people focus Alpa TC when shooting models and children, including precision focus with long lenses. :thumbs:
 
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Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Alpa TC focusing is simply guess work. It's a fun , small package that i really liked a lot but it is guess work and one of the main reasons I don't use a Tech camera is simply this i like to see the focus point through a mirror box and it is a slower process. I am a fast shooter even for landscape work. I like to see exactly what I am getting and main reason I have not bought a tech cam. I have used and like them but again for me it is limited shooting. Not to say you can't get great well focused images from it and at infinity maybe does not matter but I am a dead in the wool mirror shooter. Hard to break a 35 year habit.

I know many complain about the LCD screens especially on Phase and yes I agree but I also get by very well with it also. It's a guide and treat it as such.

Steve pointed out the gotcha issues and obviously there are some for sure. All of this MF stuff needs a solid platform to work from or a very steady hand and knowing your DOF and speeds for each lens . I do very well handheld and by all accounts not bragging here but I can beat just about any comment made on handheld speed of these systems. Bottom line MF is work and you need to go into it with that mindset right from the start. I get a canon in my hand I feel like I am not even shooting but camera is doing the work not so with MF it is a dead car waiting for a jump start. You really need to work these things, nothing is automatic. It simply takes thought.

Some of the gotcha's in MF are also dependent on your experience. For some new folks to MF there issues are not always the same issues as a more experienced shooter. Let's add this some of us old dogs come from film and using 8x10 view camera's and never having a Polaroid back in those days. We overcame all the gotcha's on those systems and honestly the gotcha's don't effect us much because we come from that experience of being able to shoot blind and become great guess work artists.
 

VICTOR BT

Member
ok... this is really great, lots of points i feel im getting a better picture/study even before testing the stuff.
thanks alot for your welcoming and comments.
im not sure i can answer in one go now, so will add a few comments later on...
 

VICTOR BT

Member
ok, from a few days ago when i joined, alot of points for thought have been outlined, both practical and theoretical, and, thanks to a couple of people here the option of rollei hy6 coupled with digi back is here again for consideration.

@ guy
i work with medium format almost exclusively for more than two years. for everything i need and want in photography, the medium format can do basically. so the move is not dramatic here, on contrary, it slightly goes towards 35mm slr/dslr stuff with those phase and hassy stuff.
MF/MFD is only an issue of knowing to handle it as u say, knowing the limitations, and in case of digital, having a back that allows to go to high iso (400-800) with good quality, or in other words, IQ that is as satisfactory as Provia 400X to start with. ah, and what i mean by IQ is the quality impression on print (depth, color, no artifacts, sharpness impression etc etc).
TC is great yes, and no issue with focusing it actually, at least for normal use, without getting too close to make it hard to guees the accurate distance. but i really would like to have at least the rise of the lens, so SWA, wihle bigger, allows one of most important feature i want. and actually i like that direct viewing, it is not like leica m, it has big viewfinder with super wide field, but still feels as direct viewing.

@ evgeny
when u put the stuff like this, the choices are much eassier of course, the whole picture is different. in the studio, tethered, with flashes etc ... this is one of the major things indeed. but, the other side of the same camera should be that i want to take it on location, with natural light, as less tripod as possible... so my other major requirement makes all the picture more complicated...
again, i dont care for auto-focus now, cause i dont have it... who knows, maybe when i have a super-good auto-focus (like it seems on hassy h) i will get used to it, but lets say, i dont care now, and dont want to complicate my requirements.
as for alpa, see for yourself how well u can guees the distance, the rest is easy, open aperture needs more accuracy, closer distance needs more accuracy.
in practice, considering that i know to guees distance well, i still would not use it for model/people photography that goes closer to than filling the frame with more or less full lenght body with about moderatly wide lens (lets say 35-48mm). why? cause u can know/study/mark the lens focus distance needed on particular lens and particular size of the model in the frame... but when u get close, half body lenght etc, the little differances are significant for focusing... i dont know about people who can guess distance in such an accuracy.
other methods for measureing/guessing moderate distances.... imagine u count how many steps u need to take to get from photo-position to the photo-object... this is good way, cause sometimes, even if u r good at guessing distances, the physical shapes and proportions might be misleading...
 

VICTOR BT

Member
@ marc...
i see 2&4 pictures, and for me it makes sense, no issues, i dont see medium format camera as limitation at all, see my answer to guy in my previous comment. i guess both u and guy (he uses phase 40 as i understand from his comments/reviews) handle it just at their full potential (in terms of spontaneous attitude). all in all, i have to mention that from your impressions on h4d i read previously we see the camera in somewhat similar way as working tool. thats why i liked your remarks about this camera.
so is with HTS1.5, if it is eassier to use, faster, more rewording, and the image quality is less but in the same league, then why not, why make things complicated ?!!! :)
i still dont have a clear answer about it, and i will not have it without either testing for myself, or actually using after buying it... but i liked the idea from the beggining, and the comments about hts1.5 here on the forum (yours and others too) make me think that it is a really great addition to the system. so, was glad to read your impressions, and thanks for your comments.
funny, hassy had phase/leaf as "opponent" when i opened this thread, but i suddenly find myself thinking seriously about some solution with hy6 as opponent to hassy system. no hts1.5 advantage, but HY6! :)
as for my website... i think u should see the link to it as my signature now (i see it, safari). here it is in any case: http://web.mac.com/victorbt/iWeb/Site/VICTOR BEN TZVI.html

marc, one more question (also something im not sure i will be testing before choosing the system)... hows the 50mm lens on hassy if u know ? it should be about normal (slightly wide) for me on 40mp chip size. i have dowloaded the data-sheet from hassy size... looks ok wide open, ok when closed to optimum, the distortion is not small, but i understand Phocus takes care...
any impressions please ?!!
 

markowich

New member
victor, i have the H3DII 50 and use the 50mm lens on it rather sparingly. it is ok center to edge (much better than the 35mm in the edges) but my 39-90mm zoom beats it at the 50mm setting (on equal stops). still, nothing to worry about, a good lens.
peter

@ marc...
i see 2&4 pictures, and for me it makes sense, no issues, i dont see medium format camera as limitation at all, see my answer to guy in my previous comment. i guess both u and guy (he uses phase 40 as i understand from his comments/reviews) handle it just at their full potential (in terms of spontaneous attitude). all in all, i have to mention that from your impressions on h4d i read previously we see the camera in somewhat similar way as working tool. thats why i liked your remarks about this camera.
so is with HTS1.5, if it is eassier to use, faster, more rewording, and the image quality is less but in the same league, then why not, why make things complicated ?!!! :)
i still dont have a clear answer about it, and i will not have it without either testing for myself, or actually using after buying it... but i liked the idea from the beggining, and the comments about hts1.5 here on the forum (yours and others too) make me think that it is a really great addition to the system. so, was glad to read your impressions, and thanks for your comments.
funny, hassy had phase/leaf as "opponent" when i opened this thread, but i suddenly find myself thinking seriously about some solution with hy6 as opponent to hassy system. no hts1.5 advantage, but HY6! :)
as for my website... i think u should see the link to it as my signature now (i see it, safari). here it is in any case: http://web.mac.com/victorbt/iWeb/Site/VICTOR BEN TZVI.html

marc, one more question (also something im not sure i will be testing before choosing the system)... hows the 50mm lens on hassy if u know ? it should be about normal (slightly wide) for me on 40mp chip size. i have dowloaded the data-sheet from hassy size... looks ok wide open, ok when closed to optimum, the distortion is not small, but i understand Phocus takes care...
any impressions please ?!!
 

Quentin_Bargate

Well-known member
@ marc...

marc, one more question (also something im not sure i will be testing before choosing the system)... hows the 50mm lens on hassy if u know ? it should be about normal (slightly wide) for me on 40mp chip size. i have dowloaded the data-sheet from hassy size... looks ok wide open, ok when closed to optimum, the distortion is not small, but i understand Phocus takes care...
any impressions please ?!!
I use the 50mm on my H4D-50 and find it pretty good, with some loss at the far edges. It is probably the best general purpose focal length on the 50, slighly less wide on the 40 but still useful. You really can't fault it for general purpose shooting. I want the 28mm next :toocool:

Quentin
 

VICTOR BT

Member
@ peter, thanks, yes, i think it is more psychological - not knowing the system there are lots of questions. there are some lenses that u know their nature, and then others feel as "strangers" so to speak. of course they might be great or good or bad, but it is simply a feeling of "not knowing" its nature. good to hear positive respons though, cause this lens is a "must have" if i choose the h4d.
i already heard good things about 28mm and hts1.5... do u have any experince with it too ? and also, with 80+hts1.5 for stills/close-up/repro and even portraits ?
also, i see u previously mentioned the tech camera, or WA camera coupled with state of the art digi back and schneider/rodenstok lens... lets say, i have no single question (to other people) and no single hassitation (with myself) about this kit potential IQ. the best, the reference as u say. the data-sheet shows how distortion free high-res lens should look like on paper/graphs. and then seeing 50mm hassy data-sheet does not add much confidence as for IQ :) not because it is bad, but because it does not look on paper great enough to be unquestionable... again, on paper, and then comes all the "integration" that hasselblad claims, and people talk about :)

@ quenttin
i see we posted at the same time... thanks for reply. ok from u and peter (with 50mp backs bigger chip) im encouraged.
 
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Quentin_Bargate

Well-known member
Here is an image of Rochester Cathedral Quire, taken last Saturday. It has been perpective corrected and otherwise corrected slightly, slightly sharpned and cropped a little, mainly from the right. The red boxes indicate the cropped areas



next is a centre crop, full size



And finally, a top left crop, full size



My view from these and other images I have taken is that the 50mm Hassy lens is a decent performer. The file quality from the H4D-50 is so high that this file would accept a lot more sharpening without showing any artifacts (even though it has already been tweaked in Photoshop a fair bit), but I don't think it needs it.

Quentin
 
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fotografz

Well-known member
@ marc...
i see 2&4 pictures, and for me it makes sense, no issues, i dont see medium format camera as limitation at all, see my answer to guy in my previous comment. i guess both u and guy (he uses phase 40 as i understand from his comments/reviews) handle it just at their full potential (in terms of spontaneous attitude). all in all, i have to mention that from your impressions on h4d i read previously we see the camera in somewhat similar way as working tool. thats why i liked your remarks about this camera.
so is with HTS1.5, if it is eassier to use, faster, more rewording, and the image quality is less but in the same league, then why not, why make things complicated ?!!! :)
i still dont have a clear answer about it, and i will not have it without either testing for myself, or actually using after buying it... but i liked the idea from the beggining, and the comments about hts1.5 here on the forum (yours and others too) make me think that it is a really great addition to the system. so, was glad to read your impressions, and thanks for your comments.
funny, hassy had phase/leaf as "opponent" when i opened this thread, but i suddenly find myself thinking seriously about some solution with hy6 as opponent to hassy system. no hts1.5 advantage, but HY6! :)
as for my website... i think u should see the link to it as my signature now (i see it, safari). here it is in any case: http://web.mac.com/victorbt/iWeb/Site/VICTOR BEN TZVI.html

marc, one more question (also something im not sure i will be testing before choosing the system)... hows the 50mm lens on hassy if u know ? it should be about normal (slightly wide) for me on 40mp chip size. i have dowloaded the data-sheet from hassy size... looks ok wide open, ok when closed to optimum, the distortion is not small, but i understand Phocus takes care...
any impressions please ?!!
Victor, the 50 isn't the strongest lens in the H system ... but Phocus does correct most of it. I've used the 50 with the HTS and it's pretty good because Phocus is set up for both the lens and the HTS. I've done quite a bit of industrial photography with the 50 and no one has complained so far : -) On the 1.3X crop H4D/40 the edges are gone anyway ... besides, when you get to this level of performance it's splitting hairs.

BTW, I see you are from Georgia ... one of my best friends is the photographer Irakly Shandize who also was born in Georgia, USSR.

Marc
 

VICTOR BT

Member
@ quentin
thanks alot for the samples, indeed, looks like nothing much to worry about the lens performance.

@ marc, thanks... knowing that the lens is superb is a good feeling, but from the other hand "spliting hairs" on lens performance is out my photographic priority :)

yes, i know Irakly, we met in Portugal a couple of years ago, tell him my georgian salutation for him :)
 

VICTOR BT

Member
ok back to the previous comments.
again thanks for replies.

@ guy... good points about batteries. those little things are irritating, one battery type is better, after all, if this is hasselbald, than hts1.5 might be added, so no need in tech camera... all in theory of course at the moment for me, but one type battery is easier life anyway, not sure if it is an issue of weight, just seems easier to be sure that theres always some power in the bag.
as for your remark about lenses and shutter... leaf shutter anyway, but both phase and hassy cover what i need from normal lens (50-80) anyway (well, maybe a little bit advantage on hassy for wide and macro being leaf too).
as for biewfinders : i know mamiya/pahse already (af-ii) so this is already good enough, and if new afd is improved and hassy is better than what the issue. same about handeling (orgonomics, af-ii is good and if afd or hassy is better then great).
one thing - hassy has two types of viewfinder/prism, with higher megnification (better for smaller chips) and lower magnification (covers full frame)... so this high-madnif might be the advantage (for focus accuracy and bigger view) on small 40 chip...

@ steve hendrix and jack
i certainly want to hear the negative aspects as u and Jack say.
another voice with satisfactory tones for hts. i already answered about it (to marc here), it seems that no real complients till know about IQ or usability, obviously not a match to alpa/tech, but after all, it might be a great creative tool, making a versatile system.
i will have a look at your recommended thread about mfd-gotcas...

@ don, of course best is a function of individual needs (quality expectations, common subject matters for photography, handling, artistic attitude etc)... best here is only in moderate term, more like optimal, and yes, i am asking for a lot, camera that can work in many conditions, and bring enjoyable work and potential for quality prints.

@ pteterA... well, im not sure i can test every option on table. but with some intuition where the real test miss... the good thing is that none of the choices and combinations here are bad, actually, all of them is good ... so just to choose with prior testing/study, and then forget about choices and do photography with it :)

@ davidK
yes, i see a really wide range of opinions here, and this really helps to get a picture.
 

VICTOR BT

Member
@ don...
weight is surely a consideration...
no issue with studio, and no issue with production. when in production, camera system weight is not a big deal, just think about lighting and all other stuff...
but them, since it should be a general "do-everything" camera for me, i do concider weight and ease of use, because in my cases i want to do photos solo - travel light, and work with person without all the production mass (more equipemnt and people). so here light is better.

@ dougdolde...
i can think about hy6, just because it is hy6,
lets say - rz is way too big... yes it does weist-level and with leaf revolving sensor it can do vertical and horizontal (unlike hassy H weist-level finder)... but overall, for its huge size i dont see advantage over hassy or phase.
 
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