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Old 1st July 2010   #1
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S2 Chromatic Aberration - how big an issue is it?

In 3 days testing of an S2 with the 70mm 'standard' I noticed a fair bit of CA in my images at wider apertures. Slightly more than their competitors (Hassy, Phase) and a LOT more than you would expect from Leica's reputation.

From odd hints here, it seems to be something that others have noticed too, though all the big tests seem to rarely mention it - is this the case, or did I miss a larger discussion?
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Old 1st July 2010   #2
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Re: S2 Chromatic Aberration - how big an issue is it?

I've heard it mentioned before. You've got to wonder, again, if the other big boys don't do a lot of their CA removal automatically in firmware and fine tuned software, eg. Phocus and C1. Lightroom has never been good with CA, at least not in my experience with Nikon and Canon glass. I too find it hard to swallow that the most expensive glass in the MF world exhibits such strong CA at wider apertures. Can you post some examples? I'm hoping to test the S2 in the coming month as well so any shared info would be great.
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Old 1st July 2010   #3
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Re: S2 Chromatic Aberration - how big an issue is it?

Hm, actually that does not sound good.

Maybe the lens needs some fine tuning? Reminds me back on my DMR time, when I used my 2.8/180 APO first time with the DMR I had quite a lot of CA. Sending the lens back to Solms and have it adjusted again helped. No more visible CA.

Would have hoped this problem was gone with the new designed glass for the S System, but obviously not. My conclusion is that the lens needs to be fine tuned. I do not think that Leica relies on CA removal during post processing, so either they do it in camera for the rest that remains in a high end lens, or the lens is so misaligned that the internal CA removal does not help.
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Old 1st July 2010   #4
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Re: S2 Chromatic Aberration - how big an issue is it?

this is a very interesting issue. i have noticed a lot of CA in my first tests with the S2 and the 70mm lens but other issues at that time were overiding. some of the samples taken with the 35mm posted on the net show the same but i thought it was jpg processing. also, some of my M lenses like the 24mm LUX and the 50mm LUX show exaggerated CA, when compared to nikkors for example. of course LR is very bad with CA, much worse than C1. there could be many other reasons like the glass leica uses, internal processing etc.
disturbing anyway.
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Old 2nd July 2010   #5
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Re: S2 Chromatic Aberration - how big an issue is it?

I still think it is a matter of exact adjustment. As already mentioned, it was repaired after sending my 180 APO to Solms. Also all of my M glass was there for coding and adjustment and I never had any issues with it afterwards.

Disturbing is that obviously Leica QC is not what it should be!
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Old 2nd July 2010   #6
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Re: S2 Chromatic Aberration - how big an issue is it?

I stand to be corrected on this (obviously) but I'm not convinced (on only 1 cup of coffee) a buff & polish back at the Solms mothership would help much with CA on a non-apo lens - assuming all else is as it should be with the lens. I can see it helping enormously with an APO unit that's seen some knocks...

As for CA w/S2:

http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/...dpost&p=374041

Got a kick out of the "...wasting money..." part.

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Old 2nd July 2010   #7
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Re: S2 Chromatic Aberration - how big an issue is it?

The topic of CA and the Leica S2/lenses came up a few days ago in the "fun with MF" thread when Jack noticed CA visible in some S2 photos of motorcycle chrome was posted. This got me curious so I went back through a few thousand of my S2 images and had a very difficult time finding photos that show CA. There were very few images with CA and only in the most extreme conditions. So, it has been a non-issue for me.
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Old 2nd July 2010   #8
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Re: S2 Chromatic Aberration - how big an issue is it?

Actually it came up in Guy's and my review of the S2 back in January, but at that time we expressed caution in reading too much into it as there was no dedicated raw processor yet. Unfortunately it seems there is still no dedicated raw processor, so for now the CA appears in certain circumstances, so seems it could be an issue for folks that use them in those circumstances....
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Old 2nd July 2010   #9
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Re: S2 Chromatic Aberration - how big an issue is it?

As TJV pointed out, the big unknown here is the raw editor. The software companies are not fully transparent in explaining how their editors work - understandably so since that's core to their app's design / performance/ differentiators. The problem comes into play when using one app for one camera, and another app for another camera. There list of unknowns is lengthy and all we can do is look at the net result and make judgements & best guesses. I posted this a while back -



At the time C1 was automatically suppressing purple CA, there was no toggle switch to turn it on and off in the non-pro version. So I could go on and on for years believing XYZ lens didn't have CA simply because C1 filtered it out and I was none the wiser. I'm not defending Leica here, just illustrating TJV's comments. And I hope Leica re-evaluates their raw editor strategy.
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Old 2nd July 2010   #10
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Re: S2 Chromatic Aberration - how big an issue is it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Gowin View Post
The topic of CA and the Leica S2/lenses came up a few days ago in the "fun with MF" thread when Jack noticed CA visible in some S2 photos of motorcycle chrome was posted. This got me curious so I went back through a few thousand of my S2 images and had a very difficult time finding photos that show CA. There were very few images with CA and only in the most extreme conditions. So, it has been a non-issue for me.
Maybe you had the luck of optimally aligned and adjusted lenses?
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Old 2nd July 2010   #11
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Re: S2 Chromatic Aberration - how big an issue is it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by robmac View Post
I stand to be corrected on this (obviously) but I'm not convinced (on only 1 cup of coffee) a buff & polish back at the Solms mothership would help much with CA on a non-apo lens - assuming all else is as it should be with the lens. I can see it helping enormously with an APO unit that's seen some knocks...

As for CA w/S2:

http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/...dpost&p=374041

Got a kick out of the "...wasting money..." part.
I have mainly APO and ASPH lenses I use on the M8 and for most of them sending back to Solms solved the problem. Same as for the 2.8/180 APO.

So you are right, for non APO and maybe also non ASPH lenses ther can be only little improvement WRT CA.
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Old 2nd July 2010   #12
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Re: S2 Chromatic Aberration - how big an issue is it?

Peter, no definitive idea - just a random thought while contemplating which blend to have for my 2nd morning coffee.
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Old 2nd July 2010   #13
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Re: S2 Chromatic Aberration - how big an issue is it?

Are we talking about CA here ... or purple/magenta fringing from digital sensor bloom?

I saw some green CA from the S2 70mm ... like partially OOF palm tree trunk edges against a blue sky background, but not to bad actually ... and some pretty bad Purple/Magenta fringing on hard edged objects agains a bright window ... LR didn't even touch that Purple fringing.

For the most part, both the 70mm and the 180mm I used with the S2 did pretty good given the bright conditions I was shooting in. But frankly not any better than other MFD systems I've used, even without using de-fringing software other than what's available in LR.

-Marc
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Old 2nd July 2010   #14
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Re: S2 Chromatic Aberration - how big an issue is it?

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Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
Are we talking about CA here ... or purple/magenta fringing from digital sensor bloom?
Good point Marc -- it is purple fringe I saw with the S2 on all occasions. CA would also have a blue or green opposite component depending on whether the "purple" is red or magenta...
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Old 2nd July 2010   #15
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Re: S2 Chromatic Aberration - how big an issue is it?

Interesting thread. I am also curious how well the LR solution allows taming of CA. Those who advocate use of dedicated system software (and we already KNOW who you are ) may have a good point.

As always, pixel peeping only makes sense if everyone who sees your work gets to do it too. Were those who have seen CA in the S2 lenses still able to see it in a 40"x60" print? Okay, now 20"x30"?
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Old 2nd July 2010   #16
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Re: S2 Chromatic Aberration - how big an issue is it?

Marc, you are probably right in that it is purple fringe more so than CA. I have attached an example (with crop) of one of my S2-70mm photos which exhibit this. I consider this an extreme condition and is only visible in a tight crop, but it is there. Still, I am not complaining considering the conditions and no attempt has been made to post process the fringing away. Note the crop is the upper right hand corner of the photo.
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S2 Chromatic Aberration - how big an issue is it?-parkingramp_srgb-1-jpg   S2 Chromatic Aberration - how big an issue is it?-parkingramp_srgb-2-jpg  
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Old 2nd July 2010   #17
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Re: S2 Chromatic Aberration - how big an issue is it?

It is also worth noting the DR is better than appears in the small jpg image. See the crop from the lower left portion of the frame. Note, the crop area is not sharp because it is outside the depth of field from the focus point.
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Old 2nd July 2010   #18
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Re: S2 Chromatic Aberration - how big an issue is it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Gowin View Post
It is also worth noting the DR is better than appears in the small jpg image. See the crop from the lower left portion of the frame. Note, the crop area is not sharp because it is outside the depth of field from the focus point.
That's CA -- mild, but CA. You have magenta along the lower edge of the downspout and rail, and then a slight bit of green along the opposite edges.
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Old 2nd July 2010   #19
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Re: S2 Chromatic Aberration - how big an issue is it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by NotXorc View Post
Interesting thread. I am also curious how well the LR solution allows taming of CA. Those who advocate use of dedicated system software (and we already KNOW who you are ) may have a good point.

As always, pixel peeping only makes sense if everyone who sees your work gets to do it too. Were those who have seen CA in the S2 lenses still able to see it in a 40"x60" print? Okay, now 20"x30"?
My ears are ringing but the truth is C1 is excellent at controlling CA and yes I have run into it with the Phase on occasion with a 28mm but hit a button and it is gone . I don't think it functions with a S2 file though because it see's it as a generic DNG.

When Jack and I tested the s2 we where more preoccupied with other things but as Jack said we also where not sure what the software was doing either. So we left it alone but yes we did see it.
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Old 2nd July 2010   #20
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Re: S2 Chromatic Aberration - how big an issue is it?

Here's a suggestion for eliminating fringing is Lightroom:

Make any changes or corrections you desire, then apply Defringe to all edges.

Next, export the file as a TIFF to the same folder as the original, and check the "Add to this catalog" box.

Now you have a corrected TIFF file sitting next your original. Just apply Defringe to all edges again, and the purple fringing is gone! The need to do this is only about 1% of your photos where there is extreme contrast present. I have never seen any CA.

Dale
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Old 2nd July 2010   #21
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Re: S2 Chromatic Aberration - how big an issue is it?

Dale, I changed Defringe to "all edges" and moved the red/cyan slider down to -7 and that took care of it. Super simple to do. Next I will try your approach, which seems simple as well.
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Old 2nd July 2010   #22
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Re: S2 Chromatic Aberration - how big an issue is it?

Good example! It's amazing what can be accomplished in software these days. This also illustrates why it's best to evaluate, for ourselves and within our own workflow environment, complete systems. I say complete systems meaning as opposed to "I ran both through processor 'A' using "default settings" and compared the 100% views." In this case, it's obvious Leica's chosen software is not so good at eliminating certain artifacts and the competition is ahead. Then again, if one is serious about maintaing a Lightroom catalogue and processing workflow (which I am,) there is no real alternative anyway. I'm all about saving time and energy at the computer these days. I guess there are trade offs no matter where you look.

This morning I downloaded some more of Guy and Jack's S2 review DNG's and played around with them in LR3. To be honest, speaking as someone who only uses 100ISO MF slide film, I was really impressed with the files up to and including (if only marginally) 640ISO. In my experience, 400ISO colour neg scans horribly under similar conditions to Guy's torture test, and is especially grainy in the shadows. Combined that with the effect of grain aliasing and MF colour neg can look downright ugly at time. (Just my humble opinion. If I was making true optical prints it would be a different story.) 320ISO S2 files look a heck of a lot better to my eyes. Are they $30K good, or better / worse than the competition? I really don't know. I just know I'd have a lot less stress in my life if I gave up using film!

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Black View Post
As TJV pointed out, the big unknown here is the raw editor. The software companies are not fully transparent in explaining how their editors work - understandably so since that's core to their app's design / performance/ differentiators. The problem comes into play when using one app for one camera, and another app for another camera. There list of unknowns is lengthy and all we can do is look at the net result and make judgements & best guesses. I posted this a while back -



At the time C1 was automatically suppressing purple CA, there was no toggle switch to turn it on and off in the non-pro version. So I could go on and on for years believing XYZ lens didn't have CA simply because C1 filtered it out and I was none the wiser. I'm not defending Leica here, just illustrating TJV's comments. And I hope Leica re-evaluates their raw editor strategy.
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Old 3rd July 2010   #23
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Re: S2 Chromatic Aberration - how big an issue is it?

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Originally Posted by NotXorc View Post
Interesting thread. I am also curious how well the LR solution allows taming of CA. Those who advocate use of dedicated system software (and we already KNOW who you are ) may have a good point.

As always, pixel peeping only makes sense if everyone who sees your work gets to do it too. Were those who have seen CA in the S2 lenses still able to see it in a 40"x60" print? Okay, now 20"x30"?
I'm not much for pixel peeping for its own sake either ... and think it's overused for the sake of internet arguments. However, I DO think 100% and 200% inspections have some value for the photographer in that something like CA can have an effect on apparent sharpness at 100% renderings @ viewing distances ... as well as how smoothly tonal transitions are rendered.

Leica's renowned but mystical "micro contrast" helps make OOF objects clearer which adds to the over-all impression of clarity ... or snap, crackle, and pop ... without messing with edge sharpness to do it ... (or so I've been repeatedly told by larger brains than mine

However, the point about actual size is well taken. Frankly, what little CA I saw in any S2 shots that I shot was pretty minimal considering that a 100% rendering @ 300 ppi is 16.5" X 25" or so ... and a 200% rendering would be 33" X 50".

By comparison, the M9 produces a 11.5" X 17.37" native rendering @ 300 ppi and would require approx. a 143% rendering to match the S2's native 100% rendering.

This notion also has to be applied in reverse to the rendering of images from something like Jack's P65+, which produces a much larger native image than the S2 ... so even IF there were a touch more CA, it wouldn't be as apparent in a print equal in size to a 100% one from the S2. Add the world class software corrections from either Phase One or Hasselblad, and the touted lens advantage of the S2 diminishes.

Basically, the highly corrected and expensive S2 lenses aren't a luxury, they are a necessity for a "Tweener" sized sensor IMO ... a feat which Leica apparently has accomplished pretty well, but not perfectly as implied. I'd wager that dedicated software would deal with the small remainder.

Attached are a few 200% screen grab crops ... two from the S2 and 70mm, and two from the M9 with a 75/1.4 ... all shot wide open. Sorry, I don't have comparible focal length conversions ... I wasn't testing the S2 that way when I demo'ed it. A bit of green fringe in OOF areas on the S2 shots, but at native print size @ normal viewing distances it's virtually invisible to the viewer. I must admit my amazement concerning the old 75/Lux if you consider it was shot at f/1.4 or 1.5.

Marc
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S2 Chromatic Aberration - how big an issue is it?-m9-75_1-4-@-1-jpg   S2 Chromatic Aberration - how big an issue is it?-m9-75_1-4-@-f_1-jpg   S2 Chromatic Aberration - how big an issue is it?-s2-70mm-@-jpg   S2 Chromatic Aberration - how big an issue is it?-s2-70mm-@-jpg  
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Old 3rd July 2010   #24
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Re: S2 Chromatic Aberration - how big an issue is it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
I'm not much for pixel peeping for its own sake either ... and think it's overused for the sake of internet arguments. However, I DO think 100% and 200% inspections have some value for the photographer in that something like CA can have an effect on apparent sharpness at 100% renderings @ viewing distances ... as well as how smoothly tonal transitions are rendered.

Leica's renowned but mystical "micro contrast" helps make OOF objects clearer which adds to the over-all impression of clarity ... or snap, crackle, and pop ... without messing with edge sharpness to do it ... (or so I've been repeatedly told by larger brains than mine

However, the point about actual size is well taken. Frankly, what little CA I saw in any S2 shots that I shot was pretty minimal considering that a 100% rendering @ 300 ppi is 16.5" X 25" or so ... and a 200% rendering would be 33" X 50".

By comparison, the M9 produces a 11.5" X 17.37" native rendering @ 300 ppi and would require approx. a 143% rendering to match the S2's native 100% rendering.

This notion also has to be applied in reverse to the rendering of images from something like Jack's P65+, which produces a much larger native image than the S2 ... so even IF there were a touch more CA, it wouldn't be as apparent in a print equal in size to a 100% one from the S2. Add the world class software corrections from either Phase One or Hasselblad, and the touted lens advantage of the S2 diminishes.

Basically, the highly corrected and expensive S2 lenses aren't a luxury, they are a necessity for a "Tweener" sized sensor IMO ... a feat which Leica apparently has accomplished pretty well, but not perfectly as implied. I'd wager that dedicated software would deal with the small remainder.

Attached are a few 200% screen grab crops ... two from the S2 and 70mm, and two from the M9 with a 75/1.4 ... all shot wide open. Sorry, I don't have comparible focal length conversions ... I wasn't testing the S2 that way when I demo'ed it. A bit of green fringe in OOF areas on the S2 shots, but at native print size @ normal viewing distances it's virtually invisible to the viewer. I must admit my amazement concerning the old 75/Lux if you consider it was shot at f/1.4 or 1.5.

Marc
Very helpful comments Marc! I actually find the OOF green CA more distracting in your examples than the red aberrations seen in Mark's spiral parking garage. Further, I agree with Jack that they are pretty mild, and surmise they would not draw attention in a 300ppi print. I have to use Visolve to even pick out (working on an uncalibrated monitor at the moment) the red fringing.
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Old 3rd July 2010   #25
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Re: S2 Chromatic Aberration - how big an issue is it?

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Very helpful comments Marc! I actually find the OOF green CA more distracting in your examples than the red aberrations seen in Mark's spiral parking garage. Further, I agree with Jack that they are pretty mild, and surmise they would not draw attention in a 300ppi print. I have to use Visolve to even pick out (working on an uncalibrated monitor at the moment) the red fringing.

Dear OP

It's probably not an issue at all

I went out and had my eyes tested again, as I just couldn't see any CA, frinbging etc (thx NotXorc for admitting to need help in seeing)

CA, fringing, grain, hard boket...these are all part of the game.. like a little splotchiness in a $70million impressionist painting?

This thread has got to be one of the most positive for the S2 I've seen in a while.

You think the above is fringing? that's not fringing
see below the water, splash etc THAT's FRINGING

[or is it sensor bloom... oh well, looks red...]

(3:1, 1:1 and the the crop I might use. BTW the colors on the seaweed are all good, even thougfh I took a bit of magenta out) Also, watch that nasty green/magenta slider in LR, it was +25 or so in the 3:1!)

A bit of CA/ see the wire back lit etc etc. I increased saturation to see, but sure, looks like quacks like etc

"....and on your left side red,
and on your right side green,...
do the hokey pokey...." to the tune of...

I must say that Jack's comment holds a lot of sway...he had a LOT more time than I did, and if he said it wasn't obvious that means a lot. Until this thread, I didn't even think about it.

That said, just like my profile for the M8 magenta issue, if you are doing a lot of auto chrome, plate or flatware with hard lite you may need some help in ,most cases this seems these aberrations right in line with what I see from Zeiss glass as well..

Also, remember there is diffraction in nature; many times a laquer coat will cause a spectrum, same with bright surfaces that are curved, that is, it isn't always the lens

The botton line is that nature causes some of these aberrations, and taking all out of splashed water etc will start to seem artificial. I'm not saying ignore, but when you have to look that closely, it aint a problem.

best all
Victor

PS Happy 4th to all the Yankees!
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Old 5th July 2010   #26
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Re: S2 Chromatic Aberration - how big an issue is it?

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Dear OP

It's probably not an issue at all

CA, fringing, grain, hard boket...these are all part of the game.. like a little splotchiness in a $70million impressionist painting?
Sorry, but it IS a big problem working near wide open on a bright day - classic Leica territory - the CA on the files is unacceptable, and Phase, however they do it, give me far better results, despite cheaper lenses.

If a software solution is required, then Leica needs to come up with one, a.s.a.p.
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Old 5th July 2010   #27
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Re: S2 Chromatic Aberration - how big an issue is it?

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Sorry, but it IS a big problem working near wide open on a bright day - classic Leica territory - the CA on the files is unacceptable, and Phase, however they do it, give me far better results, despite cheaper lenses.

If a software solution is required, then Leica needs to come up with one, a.s.a.p.
Sorry but I have to agree also. It is a problem
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Old 5th July 2010   #28
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Re: S2 Chromatic Aberration - how big an issue is it?

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Sorry but I have to agree also. It is a problem
i have never seen such a CA/purple fringing problem on my H3DII50 files or on my P65+ files (with schneiders and rodenstocks). very reminiscent of not the best nikon glass...makes me think twice about going the S way.
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Old 5th July 2010   #29
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Re: S2 Chromatic Aberration - how big an issue is it?

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Dear OP

It's probably not an issue at all

I went out and had my eyes tested again, as I just couldn't see any CA, frinbging etc (thx NotXorc for admitting to need help in seeing)

CA, fringing, grain, hard boket...these are all part of the game.. like a little splotchiness in a $70million impressionist painting?

This thread has got to be one of the most positive for the S2 I've seen in a while.

You think the above is fringing? that's not fringing
see below the water, splash etc THAT's FRINGING

[or is it sensor bloom... oh well, looks red...]

(3:1, 1:1 and the the crop I might use. BTW the colors on the seaweed are all good, even thougfh I took a bit of magenta out) Also, watch that nasty green/magenta slider in LR, it was +25 or so in the 3:1!)

A bit of CA/ see the wire back lit etc etc. I increased saturation to see, but sure, looks like quacks like etc

"....and on your left side red,
and on your right side green,...
do the hokey pokey...." to the tune of...

I must say that Jack's comment holds a lot of sway...he had a LOT more time than I did, and if he said it wasn't obvious that means a lot. Until this thread, I didn't even think about it.

That said, just like my profile for the M8 magenta issue, if you are doing a lot of auto chrome, plate or flatware with hard lite you may need some help in ,most cases this seems these aberrations right in line with what I see from Zeiss glass as well..

Also, remember there is diffraction in nature; many times a laquer coat will cause a spectrum, same with bright surfaces that are curved, that is, it isn't always the lens

The botton line is that nature causes some of these aberrations, and taking all out of splashed water etc will start to seem artificial. I'm not saying ignore, but when you have to look that closely, it aint a problem.

best all
Victor

PS Happy 4th to all the Yankees!
Victor what you show in these crops is moire/ aliasing ("Christmas tree" effect), which is another big problem when there's no easy software solution....
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Old 5th July 2010   #30
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Re: S2 Chromatic Aberration - how big an issue is it?

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Victor what you show in these crops is moire/ aliasing ("Christmas tree" effect), which is another big problem when there's no easy software solution....
well, i have seen all those image defects in M8/9 files with various LUXES. but i tend to accept -my fault- non perfect M files rather than non perfect MF files. M photography is -for me- different, inspired by the moment, in the sense of 'street photography, where small imperfections do not matter. in some sense the M9 is an imprecise tool anyway, so my expectations are limited.
MF photography should be free of artifacts as much as possible and i have NO intention to write 10 or more photoshop actions myself to eliminate artifacts which should have been dealt with by the MF-producer's company software developers. unfortunately leica went the cheap way....every S buyer gets an LR license...wonderful. cheap on software, ultra high expensive on hardware.
peter
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Old 5th July 2010   #31
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Re: S2 Chromatic Aberration - how big an issue is it?

I think that's an excellent point Peter: At various levels in the imaging game, we put up with deficiencies in various gear configurations depending on our needs/uses for that system. (The GF1 has tons of them, but it's such a great little camera for what it does well, I own an entire 3-body, multi-lens G series kit. The M8 and even 9 have their issues, but we love the system for what it does so well.) But once we're at the highest level of the imaging chain, we expect most of the technical deficiencies to be attenuated to the point of invisibility or at least insignificance.
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Old 5th July 2010   #32
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Re: S2 Chromatic Aberration - how big an issue is it?

When we buy MF, we accept we don't get the same amazing variety of lenses, the same high ISO performance, or the same sheer versatility as we get from high end 35mm but we DO get (or at least should get), a superior end product in terms of file quality. Thus, my Sony A900 does things that my H4D-50 could not do, but excellent though the A900 is, the Hasselblad will thrash it every time in terms of absolute file quality, and I don't just mean better resolution, but superior "everythingness". I accept the Phocus works in tandem with the lenses to remove any defects, but the end result is very good, and its the end result I am looking for.

So I simply don't understand why at the very least Leica would not have supplied the S2 with a post shoot software fix.

I wonder if in fact the S2 is a true medium format system on a par with Phase and Hassy, or whether the smaller S2 format is partly to blame? In other words, are we looking as a system limitation or an arguably bodged job by Leica? A bodge can be fixed more easily than a system limitation.

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Old 5th July 2010   #33
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Re: S2 Chromatic Aberration - how big an issue is it?

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Originally Posted by Quentin_Bargate View Post
When we buy MF, we accept we don't get the same amazing variety of lenses, the same high ISO performance, or the same sheer versatility as we get from high end 35mm but we DO get (or at least should get), a superior end product in terms of file quality. Thus, my Sony A900 does things that my H4D-50 could not do, but excellent though the A900 is, the Hasselblad will thrash it every time in terms of absolute file quality, and I don't just mean better resolution, but superior "everythingness". I accept the Phocus works in tandem with the lenses to remove any defects, but the end result is very good, and its the end result I am looking for.

So I simply don't understand why at the very least Leica would not have supplied the S2 with a post shoot software fix.

I wonder if in fact the S2 is a true medium format system on a par with Phase and Hassy, or whether the smaller S2 format is partly to blame? In other words, are we looking as a system limitation or an arguably bodged job by Leica? A bodge can be fixed more easily than a system limitation.

Quentin
a phase/kodak collaboration could probably fix it, i am not sure about leica in house. there is no precedence for it, so i am doubtful.
peter
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Old 5th July 2010   #34
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Re: S2 Chromatic Aberration - how big an issue is it?

I have shot few thousand S2 photos to date and recently went back through just about all of them specifically looking for CA and purple fringing. I only found a handful of images (one posted above) that showed the issue. As a result, I consider this to be a non-problem for me and the stuff I normally shoot. If I routinely photographed strongly backlit items or highly reflective objects in bright sunlight, then I would expect to see it more often. In that case, I would just add the correction to a preset in LR. It is easy really.

It is good to keep this in perspective.
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Old 5th July 2010   #35
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Re: S2 Chromatic Aberration - how big an issue is it?

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I wonder if in fact the S2 is a true medium format system on a par with Phase and Hassy, or whether the smaller S2 format is partly to blame?
It may be the S2 is simply in its own class -- a tweener class between the highest rez DSLR's and current league of MF cameras.
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Old 5th July 2010   #36
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Re: S2 Chromatic Aberration - how big an issue is it?

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I have shot few thousand S2 photos to date and recently went back through just about all of them specifically looking for CA and purple fringing. I only found a handful of images (one posted above) that showed the issue. As a result, I consider this to be a non-problem for me and the stuff I normally shoot. If I routinely photographed strongly backlit items or highly reflective objects in bright sunlight, then I would expect to see it more often. In that case, I would just add the correction to a preset in LR. It is easy really.

It is good to keep this in perspective.
Mark, LR3 cannot deal with it at all- in my experience. Peter
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Old 5th July 2010   #37
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Re: S2 Chromatic Aberration - how big an issue is it?

Well I wrote 6 responses in this thread that I deleted after I reread them. Maybe better left unsaid. I have done my due diligence on the S2 topic at large. I'm going to start drinking now.
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Old 5th July 2010   #38
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Re: S2 Chromatic Aberration - how big an issue is it?

Although he has not posted here to my knowledge, it seems that Erwin Puts has been mulling CA in the S2 system very recently too.

http://www.imx.nl/photo/optics/optics/chromatic.html
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Old 5th July 2010   #39
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Re: S2 Chromatic Aberration - how big an issue is it?

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It may be the S2 is simply in its own class -- a tweener class between the highest rez DSLR's and current league of MF cameras.
Could be. We have got used to medium format meaning only 645 or something close thereto. 6x6 and 6x7 digital does not figure (no 6x7 digital I am aware of and the 6x6 digital such as the Kodak back is now historic). We therefore use similar points of reference for all MF digital cameras but perhaps the S2 should be appraised as a system apart from and different to both 35mm and 654 type sensors. Or maybe the hardware is great but the software is cr*p. Ho hum.

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Old 5th July 2010   #40
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Re: S2 Chromatic Aberration - how big an issue is it?

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It may be the S2 is simply in its own class -- a tweener class between the highest rez DSLR's and current league of MF cameras.
Jack,

Yes likely a lot of things particular to the S2, both good and bad.

Mark,

spot on comment; keep it all in perspective...
please feel free to ignore this question, but as a prospective buyer I have to ask...with your experience now,

....would you buy it again?

best regards
Victor
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Old 5th July 2010   #41
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Re: S2 Chromatic Aberration - how big an issue is it?

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Mark,

....would you buy it again?
Absolutely, in a heartbeat. And, without hesitation this time. (I struggled with the decision first time around.) The S2 suits me perfectly.
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Old 5th July 2010   #42
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Re: S2 Chromatic Aberration - how big an issue is it?

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Mark, LR3 cannot deal with it at all- in my experience. Peter
LR3 does not remove it completely, but using the Chromatic Aberration sliders under the Lens Correction pane does help.

Thank you for the link to the Puts article NotXorc. That is an interesting read. In fact, he says the same thing as Peter - "...none of the raw developers can handle this effect..."
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Old 5th July 2010   #43
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Re: S2 Chromatic Aberration - how big an issue is it?

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Thank you for the link to the Puts article NotXorc. That is an interesting read. In fact, he says the same thing as Peter - "...none of the raw developers can handle this effect..."
You're very welcome. Thank you for providing your opinion, based on extended use. It is a fine paradox – on one hand you acknowledge the deficiencies (lens, software, or maybe a combination), but you are still so unreserved in your support. Is there a 'killer app' which makes it right for your subject matter or shooting style?
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Old 5th July 2010   #44
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Re: S2 Chromatic Aberration - how big an issue is it?

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Although he has not posted here to my knowledge, it seems that Erwin Puts has been mulling CA in the S2 system very recently too.

http://www.imx.nl/photo/optics/optics/chromatic.html
Thank you for the link. I had no idea the 70mm lens had such poor axial color correction. Best to not use it wide open in bright sunlight to avoid poisoning by the uncorrected deep violet light.

Even more interesting is that the 180 APO is *not* apochromatic! - unless the chromatic focal shift curve bends back to the zero line somewhere in the near-IR. But this seems doubtful because surely Leica would be bragging about it? And I thought Leica didn't abuse optical terminology the way some other manufacturers do! What are we designers and manufacturers of *real* apochromats (and superachromats for that matter) supposed to call our lenses?
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Old 6th July 2010   #45
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Re: S2 Chromatic Aberration - how big an issue is it?

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Absolutely, in a heartbeat. And, without hesitation this time. (I struggled with the decision first time around.) The S2 suits me perfectly.
Good for you Mark. And I mean that.

I think the S2 system is a lightening rod for critique for a few major reasons:

The manner that Leica has touted its lens making ability as super-superior with no need for any assistance from software .... (calling it a waste of time and money, for example). IMO, this is sort of turning a blind eye to the digital age that Leica is trying to be major player in now. It's a stubborn retro mindset that is partially the cause of the second reason below ...

The staggering pricing that even locked out many of those used to Leica's jaw-dropping prices.

This camera will remain on my radar because it would also suit me well, and suit the shift in the type of work that has taken place for me in the past two years.

If (in my example) Hasselblad had not advanced toward better fulfilling my needs with the H4D, and the economy had recovered better than it has (if at all), the S2 would have been more of a contender ... despite the critiques, most of which I think I could over-come with more experience with the camera ... and those that I couldn't overcome, I could live with because of the other unique attributes.

However, Hasselblad DID waste time and money in improving its computer based corrections, and the lenses I already paid for got even better. These improvements did not cost me one single penny extra ... meanwhile, the new camera itself cost $8K less than a basic S2 body.

So, it isn't just the previous investment in a MFD system that keeps me here, it's also that the company keeps investing in improving what I already bought from them. I don't have to deal with the shortcomings because they did.

-Marc
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Old 6th July 2010   #46
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Re: S2 Chromatic Aberration - how big an issue is it?

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Good for you Mark. And I mean that.

I think the S2 system is a lightening rod for critique for a few major reasons:

The manner that Leica has touted its lens making ability as super-superior with no need for any assistance from software .... (calling it a waste of time and money, for example). IMO, this is sort of turning a blind eye to the digital age that Leica is trying to be major player in now. It's a stubborn retro mindset that is partially the cause of the second reason below ...

The staggering pricing that even locked out many of those used to Leica's jaw-dropping prices.

This camera will remain on my radar because it would also suit me well, and suit the shift in the type of work that has taken place for me in the past two years.

If (in my example) Hasselblad had not advanced toward better fulfilling my needs with the H4D, and the economy had recovered better than it has (if at all), the S2 would have been more of a contender ... despite the critiques, most of which I think I could over-come with more experience with the camera ... and those that I couldn't overcome, I could live with because of the other unique attributes.

However, Hasselblad DID waste time and money in improving its computer based corrections, and the lenses I already paid for got even better. These improvements did not cost me one single penny extra ... meanwhile, the new camera itself cost $8K less than a basic S2 body.

So, it isn't just the previous investment in a MFD system that keeps me here, it's also that the company keeps investing in improving what I already bought from them. I don't have to deal with the shortcomings because they did.

-Marc
marc,
you hit the point precisely. the disturbing issue is leica's arrogance: best optics, no software correction needed, the other MF companies are far behind, they do ugly software corrections.....etc....etc...and fanboy reports to follow, confirming the leica advertisement campaign without or after only very limited testing. then when the serious tests start, all turns around and the truth is revealed in no time. suddenly the campaign shifts from 'best MF system around' to 'most ergonomic and rugged almost-MF system around'.
benchmark comparisms shift from Hasselblad and Phaseone to canon/nikon.
i do believe that the leica engineers are serious and hardworking people but the still need a lot of help in the software domain. surely phase could have done it and adobe is apparently not interested in doing something specific for leica.
peter
p
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Old 6th July 2010   #47
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Re: S2 Chromatic Aberration - how big an issue is it?

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marc,
you hit the point precisely. the disturbing issue is leica's arrogance: best optics, no software correction needed, the other MF companies are far behind, they do ugly software corrections.....etc....etc...and fanboy reports to follow, confirming the leica advertisement campaign without or after only very limited testing. then when the serious tests start, all turns around and the truth is revealed in no time. suddenly the campaign shifts from 'best MF system around' to 'most ergonomic and rugged almost-MF system around'.
benchmark comparisms shift from Hasselblad and Phaseone to canon/nikon.
i do believe that the leica engineers are serious and hardworking people but the still need a lot of help in the software domain. surely phase could have done it and adobe is apparently not interested in doing something specific for leica.
peter
p
Bear in mind that the aberration discussed here - longitudinal chromatic aberration - cannot really be corrected in software. Its something that has to be fully corrected in the lens itself.
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Old 6th July 2010   #48
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Re: S2 Chromatic Aberration - how big an issue is it?

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Bear in mind that the aberration discussed here - longitudinal chromatic aberration - cannot really be corrected in software. Its something that has to be fully corrected in the lens itself.
however dedicated tools in a raw software (e.g. C1) do a great job. From a practical standpoint it simply works!
The S2 shows CA, purple fringing and moiré ... under certain circumstances.
So a software fix would make things easier. And, by the way, as it safes time (compared to a removal in Photoshop) it also safes money ;-)
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Old 6th July 2010   #49
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Re: S2 Chromatic Aberration - how big an issue is it?

Ahh, the plot thickens.
We have a new lens to CA-critique: the Summarit-S 35/2.5 is now in the wild, as reported by David Farkas.

http://dfarkas.blogspot.com/2010/07/...-f25-asph.html

Regarding the 35, he says, ". . . the fringe is quickly fixed with a -15 red/cyan correction in Lightroom’s Lens Correction palette, along with Leica’s recommended setting of Defringe to “All Edges.” I’d expect the forthcoming profiles from Adobe and Leica to include this correction automatically as a lens profile."

This recommendation sounds similar to Mark Gowin's advice in this thread regarding the 70mm.

Looks like I am becoming this thread's link jockey. Someone stop me before I am, you know . . .
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Old 6th July 2010   #50
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Re: S2 Chromatic Aberration - how big an issue is it?

I shoot near wide open a lot - so lots of CA and fringing. Purple fringing is easier to fix, CA is very difficult. OOF objects have broad green bands one side of them, red the other.

what is the point of a beautiful f2.5 lens if you cant use it below f4.0 on a sunny day?
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