The GetDPI Photography Forum

Great to see you here. Join our insightful photographic forum today and start tapping into a huge wealth of photographic knowledge. Completing our simple registration process will allow you to gain access to exclusive content, add your own topics and posts, share your work and connect with other members through your own private inbox! And don’t forget to say hi!

Lloyd Chambers S2 Review

Mike M

New member
I'm beginning to think this camera is taking a beating that it doesn't quite deserve.

-Marc
I agree with you 100% :)

The idea that true professionals only use manual focus is odd to say the least. If you're shooting a moving target, wide open, manual focus is a nightmare. Not all "professional" subjects are laying on a shooting table being shot at f/8 or 11, using strobes.
Just in case you're referring to my previous post, I stated that AF is a guide and cannot ever be truly relied upon. I'll stand by that and any search through Vanity Fair, Vogue, Sports Illustrated or any other popuar magazine today will show photographs riddled with focal plane misplacement probably due to over-reliance on AF. Also, I'm sorry to have used the word "professional" because it is probably a much abused term. In a perfect world, I'd like to imagine that a professional would essentially be related to the highest standards in terms of craftsmanship and technique, but unfortunately professional only really refers to a person that's making money with a camera. So I should be more careful to distinguish between what professional means and how it doesn't necessarily relate to excellent craftsmanship and technique. There are a lot of non-professionals that have higher standards of technique and craftsmanship than professionals.

The main confusion that seems to arise in discussions relating to AF is that there is a vast difference between being in-focus and having proper placement of focal planes. Most AF systems are actually pretty good at getting something in focus, but no AF system has the ability to discern focal plane placement. The ability to discern where to place a focal plane rests solely on the photographer and his mind and eye. It's a bit of an art and a developed skill. It's also one of the ways to distinguish good craftsmanship from bad. AF systems can choose focus "points" but they cannot choose focal planes. (On a side note: many people might be surprised to know that a lot of photographers that rely on AF aren't even aware of Scheimpflug. In order to really be in control of focus, a photographer has to think in terms of focal planes rather than focus points.)

If a photographer needs critical focus and placement of focal planes, especially at shallow DOF, then he can't rely on AF alone to get the focal plane in the exact correct position. There will always be a margin of error regardless of camera system. In the times that I've chosen to use AF for shoots in the past, I've generally taken into account the margin of error and factored in the need for much editing at the end specifically for shots that had the best focal plane placement. Of course, a lot of "professionals" nowadays don't really worry about that and they will just choose whatever image has something in focus rather than choosing the images that contain the proper plane of focus. There are types of photography where the moment is more crucial than the sharpness. But still we must distinguish between good and bad craftsmanship even if sharpness isn't always the key factor to the success of an image in the eyes of the viewer.

I believe Leica took the best approach toward focus by providing a smooth manual focus combined with a single AF point. This tells me that their philosophy towards AF is to view at it as a guide (one of several options) and not just a crutch to be relied upon. Of course, this decision might be risky in the current climate that is dominated by photographers that aren't really in control of their focal plane placement. But it's also one of the things that makes the S2 a genuine "professional" tool in my opinion.

OT a bit, but I'd also like to add that there is plenty of room for the old fashioned use of hyperfocal in a modern studio or commercial environment. I've done several shoots in the past where focus for the shoot was decided by an assistant and a tape measure. I wouldn't hesitate to do the same thing with the S2. There are a lot of modern sports photographers, fashion shooters, photoJs and wedding photogs that could probably increase their sharpness level if they considered using hyperfocal technique once in awhile, (even when using their ultra-modern AF DSLRs)
 
Last edited:

Paratom

Well-known member
Mike,
I am not a 100% AF fan and do use my Hy6 manually and also Leica M.

I find your thread interesting but I dont understand why you can not choose your focal plane by choosing an AF point in the viewfinder.
I do use this with Nikon all the time, I select a subject which is in the plane I want to be sharp and select the focus point which "sits" on this subject without haviong to recompose.
If I work with a larger DOF and do know the rule 1/3 - 2/3.
I then start AF with a button on the back of the camera. I could manually override before pressing the shutter release but why would I?

One other thing I think we should not forget: Medium format with fast lenses has very shallow DOF, and the sensors with high resolution and no AA filter do show the slightest out of focus.
 

jonoslack

Active member
I'm beginning to think this camera is taking a beating that it doesn't quite deserve.
Well - I know nothing. I spent an hour or so with the S2 and the tele lens roaming around in Solms, and I thought that the AF, although slow, was pretty accurate - this wasn't test circumstances, but I think I'd have noticed if it were wrong.

But what concerns me more is the concept of Lloyd putting a remark like:

if you want top results out of the S2, you had better think of it as a manual focus camera,

on the front page of his website, then, if you click on the link you have to pay to see his reasons why.

I don't personally subscribe, so I have no idea how good or how bad his reviews may be (good I suspect), but this just leaves an unpleasant taste in my mouth.

. . . . but what do I know?
 

Steen

Senior Subscriber Member
Hopefully Lloyd Chambers will know to check for sample variations before he jumps into conclusions.
It's not unusual, not even with cameras.
 

jonoslack

Active member
That you are a potential S2 purchaser? :)

Just being mischievous

Quentin
:p
Not I mr hassleblad, not I.
But that's nothing to do with reports like this, I'm not going to get any MF camera. Just not my bag.
Hope you're well . . . going to Latitude?
 
Last edited:

markowich

New member
certainly the S2 autofocus is on the typical MF level, maybe even more accurate than the H3D hasselblad series. i have not tried the H4D series so i do not comment on it. and yes, D3(s),(x) autofocus is better but this is a trivial comment.
the main issues that i see with the S2 are:
1)exaggerated CA/fringing. leica des know about it and -i hear- they are working on it. it won't be a quick fix, but i trust they will deliver in the end.
2)i loathe the idea that i have to take the camera off the eye when i want to change exposure +/-. the minimalist button concept has something going for it, but this is too much.
3)iso 1250 is close to useless, but on my H3DII 500 iso 320 is almost useless.
peter
 

fotografz

Well-known member
I agree with you 100% :)



Just in case you're referring to my previous post, I stated that AF is a guide and cannot ever be truly relied upon. I'll stand by that and any search through Vanity Fair, Vogue, Sports Illustrated or any other popuar magazine today will show photographs riddled with focal plane misplacement probably due to over-reliance on AF. Also, I'm sorry to have used the word "professional" because it is probably a much abused term. In a perfect world, I'd like to imagine that a professional would essentially be related to the highest standards in terms of craftsmanship and technique, but unfortunately professional only really refers to a person that's making money with a camera. So I should be more careful to distinguish between what professional means and how it doesn't necessarily relate to excellent craftsmanship and technique. There are a lot of non-professionals that have higher standards of technique and craftsmanship than professionals.

The main confusion that seems to arise in discussions relating to AF is that there is a vast difference between being in-focus and having proper placement of focal planes. Most AF systems are actually pretty good at getting something in focus, but no AF system has the ability to discern focal plane placement. The ability to discern where to place a focal plane rests solely on the photographer and his mind and eye. It's a bit of an art and a developed skill. It's also one of the ways to distinguish good craftsmanship from bad. AF systems can choose focus "points" but they cannot choose focal planes. (On a side note: many people might be surprised to know that a lot of photographers that rely on AF aren't even aware of Scheimpflug. In order to really be in control of focus, a photographer has to think in terms of focal planes rather than focus points.)

If a photographer needs critical focus and placement of focal planes, especially at shallow DOF, then he can't rely on AF alone to get the focal plane in the exact correct position. There will always be a margin of error regardless of camera system. In the times that I've chosen to use AF for shoots in the past, I've generally taken into account the margin of error and factored in the need for much editing at the end specifically for shots that had the best focal plane placement. Of course, a lot of "professionals" nowadays don't really worry about that and they will just choose whatever image has something in focus rather than choosing the images that contain the proper plane of focus. There are types of photography where the moment is more crucial than the sharpness. But still we must distinguish between good and bad craftsmanship even if sharpness isn't always the key factor to the success of an image in the eyes of the viewer.

I believe Leica took the best approach toward focus by providing a smooth manual focus combined with a single AF point. This tells me that their philosophy towards AF is to view at it as a guide (one of several options) and not just a crutch to be relied upon. Of course, this decision might be risky in the current climate that is dominated by photographers that aren't really in control of their focal plane placement. But it's also one of the things that makes the S2 a genuine "professional" tool in my opinion.

OT a bit, but I'd also like to add that there is plenty of room for the old fashioned use of hyperfocal in a modern studio or commercial environment. I've done several shoots in the past where focus for the shoot was decided by an assistant and a tape measure. I wouldn't hesitate to do the same thing with the S2. There are a lot of modern sports photographers, fashion shooters, photoJs and wedding photogs that could probably increase their sharpness level if they considered using hyperfocal technique once in awhile, (even when using their ultra-modern AF DSLRs)
Oh goody ... something related to discuss other than nit-picking the S2 to death. That poor camera is being nibbled to death by ducks :ROTFL:

Mike, I agree that the word Professional isn't a grab-bag term that translates to superior craftsmanship ... this forum is packed with people that are superior photographic technicians who do not make their living with a camera.

Since I've use a Leica M for most of my photographic journey, manual focus is part of my work before and after becoming a "professional photographer" ... so the concepts of focal plane placement and hyperfocal plane focusing are an integrated part of the creative process. In fact, without hyperfocal, many decisive moment shots with a M would be less possible ... especially when shooting a fast paced wedding.

However, I don't necessarily agree that there is confusion when addressing AF systems as it relates to evaluating a camera ... at least on this forum. IMO, this is not to be confused with a general grousing about lack of proper focal plane placement that may, or may not, be evident in a lot of professional photography these days.

If an AF system is accurate, then it is up to the photographer to employ it properly, keeping in mind that to control the plane of focus requires placing the AF point correctly in relation to the f stop being used. In that regard, I see no difference between Manual and Auto Focus if you know what you are doing ... except perhaps speed and the state of the user's eye-sight. Whether enough shooters, professional or not, know what they are doing is an entirely different subject IMO.

Frankly, I am a "Photoasaur" because I lament the loss of an aperture ring with DOF scale on most modern lens barrels ... including the S2 optics. To even teach Hyperfocal distance to my assistants I have to use my M lenses. Plus, with many, if not all, modern 35mm lenses, manual focus is an afterthought at best ... my assistant's Canon 85/1.2-II is a perfect example since disengaging AF produces the sloppiest MF know to man. Personally, I think this type of design has contributed to the loss of understanding of, and confidence in, manual focus ... since even a practiced manual shooter would have difficulty using many popular current AF lenses.

Medium Format is somewhat different IMO. If I select a MF system that employs AF then three aspects of evaluation come into play ... accuracy, speed, and the ability to manually focus them. However, for much of my location and event work the former two are the priority. I think that this is a growing trend for some professionals as 1) the need to consolidate gear from a financial perspective while ramping up IQ, and 2) the MFD systems have made real progress with AF capability.

Manual focus tends to be employed when there is more time to use it properly. I've yet to use a MF system that couldn't be manually focused well. Most of the lenses are dampened well enough to employ manual focus ... and swapping out the focusing screen with one to aid in the manual focus task helps. The S2 lenses may excel at manual focus ... but they are AF lenses ... and that will be, and should be, a major criteria of evaluation.

I will continue to hold the opinion that Hasselblad has cracked the AF problems inherent with a single center focus point as it relates to freedom of composition when shooting on the fly ... while using any lens wide open or near wide open. Moving to a H4D has been a liberating experience. Placing the AF point anywhere I want, and controlling the plane of focus at will faster than possible with any AF system now employed by any camera, 35mm or MF, has all but eliminated missed decisive moment shots due to poor focus.

If the S2 had used an aperture ring, and had the AF solution like that of the H4D, it is the camera I would be shooting location and event work with right now ... no question. More studied studio work is an entirely different matter ... where versatility rules.

-Marc
 
...2)i loathe the idea that i have to take the camera off the eye when i want to change exposure +/-. the minimalist button concept has something going for it, but this is too much....
Peter,
I have the bottom right button set to call-up the exposure compensation menu. This allows me to change exposure compensation without removing the camera from my eye. I use my right thumb to hit the bottom right button, then use my thumb to roll the click wheel to dial in the compensation I want and click the wheel to accept the change. It is really simple. The only problem is that when Leica updated the firmware to show exposure compensation in the viewfinder they didn't make the changes live. In other words you can't see the changes as you are making them - it is only visible once you have accepted the change. As a result, you have to mentally count the clicks as you roll the wheel to know where you are at. It's not as bad as it sounds, but certainly not as simple as it would have been if it displayed the changes live as you are making them ( like it does on the rear LCD).

Of course you can just shoot in manual mode and have continuous (live) indication of your exposure bias.

Mark
 

doug

Well-known member
... I dont understand why you can not choose your focal plane by choosing an AF point in the viewfinder...


Because with a 250mm lens @ f/4 DOF is virtually non-existent I have to watch the entire subject, head to tail, and wait until it's parallel to the plane of focus (or maneuver to align the critter with the focus plane). An AF point telling me the back is in focus doesn't tell me anything about the head or tail.
 

djonesii

Workshop Member
I agree with you 100% :)

The main confusion that seems to arise in discussions relating to AF is that there is a vast difference between being in-focus and having proper placement of focal planes.
OK, I'm playing in a different league than the S2, with a Mamiya AFD-II and a ZD back, but I will echo exactly what this post is about, with my Nikon D300, shooting studio strobes with nude figure type work ie models posing, not runway or fast fashion/glamor, I always got something in focus, and often it was on the focal plane I wanted. That was not true at the beginning when I was shooting a D50 .... some 40 shoots later, I can pretty much make it happen the way I want if I'm careful.

Enter the Mamiya, I have done 3 shoots with it, and my "keeper" rate is WAY less than with the Nikon. I still have not got my workflow ironed out, but I have done a few tethered shots at home, and that will help significantly both from an artistic and a technical view. But, when the stars do align, the Mamiya ZD simply blows away a Nikon D300. I am convinced that I am not getting the best from my tools at the moment due to my lack of familiarity with the kit. That took many months of shooting with the Nikon SYSTEM. ( Almost 5 years of holding a Nikon Body )

I don't have the cash laying around to look at an S2, so the facts of how good is the S2 are kind of moot, but the lessons are valuable. Complex tools take time to learn. Leica has a long history of strong ergonomics in the M line, and S line if continued will no doubt have slight ergonomic changes . As long as they keep the mount the same, upgrading bodies with Sensors is a viable choice in my mind.

For straight economic reasons, I decided on an open system. For the foreseeable future, I should able to get a back for my AFD-II, great lenses to mount, and still do it at bottom feeding prices, so I'll be a generation or two out. For me the real issue is that all the muscle memory and eye to hand coordination that I learn will stay the same. The closed system folks cannot say that with the same certainty.

I'm inclined to agree with the folks saying the S2 may be taking an unfair beating. These are complex systems that take a whole suite of things being just right for optimal performance. Even more so, I agree with the post that I quoted, I look at some pretty major magazines an think what on earth was going on in the AD's mind when he let that photo out. The web is even worse ...

Dave
 

dougpeterson

Workshop Member
OK, I'm playing in a different league than the S2, with a Mamiya AFD-II and a ZD back, but I will echo exactly what this post is about, with my Nikon D300, shooting studio strobes with nude figure type work ie models posing, not runway or fast fashion/glamor, I always got something in focus, and often it was on the focal plane I wanted. That was not true at the beginning when I was shooting a D50 .... some 40 shoots later, I can pretty much make it happen the way I want if I'm careful.

Enter the Mamiya, I have done 3 shoots with it, and my "keeper" rate is WAY less than with the Nikon. I still have not got my workflow ironed out, but I have done a few tethered shots at home, and that will help significantly both from an artistic and a technical view. But, when the stars do align, the Mamiya ZD simply blows away a Nikon D300. I am convinced that I am not getting the best from my tools at the moment due to my lack of familiarity with the kit. That took many months of shooting with the Nikon SYSTEM. ( Almost 5 years of holding a Nikon Body )

[...]

For straight economic reasons, I decided on an open system. For the foreseeable future, I should able to get a back for my AFD-II, great lenses to mount, and still do it at bottom feeding prices, so I'll be a generation or two out. For me the real issue is that all the muscle memory and eye to hand coordination that I learn will stay the same. The closed system folks cannot say that with the same certainty.
With that open system you'll be able to eventually upgrade your AFD2 body to an AFD3 or DF body (or future body). Even the "latest/greatest" body is still compatible with every M mount digital back including the Mamiya ZD*.

Then in the future if/when you had the financial ability you could upgrade your digital back or lenses.

*There are a few small things you have to do set the body to be ready for a ZD back - any decent dealer can step you through that when you buy the body (selfish note: we are such a dealer).

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Leaf, Cambo, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 *| *Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up
RSS Feed: Subscribe
Buy Capture One at 10% off
Personal Work
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Peter,
I have the bottom right button set to call-up the exposure compensation menu. This allows me to change exposure compensation without removing the camera from my eye. I use my right thumb to hit the bottom right button, then use my thumb to roll the click wheel to dial in the compensation I want and click the wheel to accept the change. It is really simple. The only problem is that when Leica updated the firmware to show exposure compensation in the viewfinder they didn't make the changes live. In other words you can't see the changes as you are making them - it is only visible once you have accepted the change. As a result, you have to mentally count the clicks as you roll the wheel to know where you are at. It's not as bad as it sounds, but certainly not as simple as it would have been if it displayed the changes live as you are making them ( like it does on the rear LCD).

Of course you can just shoot in manual mode and have continuous (live) indication of your exposure bias.

Mark
More nibbles from the pack of Ducks ... :ROTFL:

Exposure comp sounds like it takes a lifetime to do, and the dexterity of a video game player ;)

Maybe they'll fix it in the next firmware upgrade if possible. I'd hound them and the Leica dealer about it. Like Guy has mentioned, squeaky wheel gets the grease.

I usually use AE lock more than comp. But exposure comp is pretty fast on the H ... and what you're setting shows in the viewfinder. For the type of camera that the S2 is, they need to address this. I'm surprised that beta testers didn't scream bloody murder about this oversight.

-Marc
 

dougpeterson

Workshop Member
I'm beginning to think this camera is taking a beating that it doesn't quite deserve.
Very few cameras in this end of the market deserve a "beating". I think the S2 "takes a beating" from some observers because they expected a high price tag to be perfect (at all things and for all uses) and that's simply never going to be the case with any camera at any price point.

Just like any other camera the S2 has some great strengths, and some weaknesses as well.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Leaf, Cambo, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 *| *Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up
RSS Feed: Subscribe
Buy Capture One at 10% off
Personal Work
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
In the S2 defense on AF and something to bear in mind on most of these reviews which a lot of them are not shooting MF on a regular basis. So on one hand it may smoke something to them than on the other a royal piece of crap. Be careful how you interpret what is being said. This goes with any review on any brand but many times 35mm shooters get a MF in there hand and expect miracles not realizing the DOF restrictions and how software plays more a role in MF. BTW I have not read the review but from the comments I read some things are apparent.
 

markowich

New member
Peter,
I have the bottom right button set to call-up the exposure compensation menu. This allows me to change exposure compensation without removing the camera from my eye. I use my right thumb to hit the bottom right button, then use my thumb to roll the click wheel to dial in the compensation I want and click the wheel to accept the change. It is really simple. The only problem is that when Leica updated the firmware to show exposure compensation in the viewfinder they didn't make the changes live. In other words you can't see the changes as you are making them - it is only visible once you have accepted the change. As a result, you have to mentally count the clicks as you roll the wheel to know where you are at. It's not as bad as it sounds, but certainly not as simple as it would have been if it displayed the changes live as you are making them ( like it does on the rear LCD).

Of course you can just shoot in manual mode and have continuous (live) indication of your exposure bias.

Mark

mark,
i have the camera set up in the same way. still it is auckward compared to the D3x. this is a case where leica's comcept of simplicity fails. the camera certainly lacks another wheel.
peter
 

markowich

New member
Very few cameras in this end of the market deserve a "beating". I think the S2 "takes a beating" from some observers because they expected a high price tag to be perfect (at all things and for all uses) and that's simply never going to be the case with any camera at any price point.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)


__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Leaf, Cambo, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 *| *Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up
RSS Feed: Subscribe
Buy Capture One at 10% off
Personal Work
very good point. this is what fooled me on my first S2 acquisition in january. i expected an almost perfect tool and almost perfect IQ, after the exaggerated leica campaing and subsequent first fanboy analysis. i remember ridiculous statements like 'leica engineers could not detect any moiree in their test' etc.
those first reviews actually did a lot of damage. guy's and jack's review was the first honest(ly) serious one.
in my second take on the S2 i have cerainly lowered my expectations to a reasonable level and i do like the camera a lot.
certainly i shall not touch the hassy anymore...i leave that to other members of the family....which means that i might still have to sherpa it around---)))
peter
 

jonoslack

Active member
certainly i shall not touch the hassy anymore...i leave that to other members of the family....which means that i might still have to sherpa it around---)))
peter
Oh Dear - I always thought that having your cake and eating it was a good thing . . . . but perhaps not in this case!
Still, I guess it'll keep you fit, and it's certainly for a good cause.
Have a great trip.
 
Top